I really want to believe you,althought I don't know about ships I know that the sub tilts 45 degrees,so explain me is this a problem or not?if itsn't then you are right.also about the payments,because I study Economics I can assure you that someone has to be stupid to pay 80% of a total sum before for sth that he really wants it(check Greek-Turkish weapons-race),and risk to lose the money for what?for some millions euros?do you really believe that for such a small amount of money a developed country would risk so much?
U-214 SSK problems
- Thread starter Betasys
- Start date
I have no reason not to believe you or Kato. I have already told that this was the first of those submarine type and maybe this is the reason why it had that problems. The second submarine if it hasn't already completed it's trials sea and harbor, then this will happen soon.
Also about the Leo 2, this issue has been discused in another topic, the program is running and now the tanks are on duty.
About the Eurofighters, the decision made not to buy them in 2004 has dissapointed lots of Greeks, especially those serving in the Air Force. And of course such a decision was a mistake from Greece's side. I hope that the same mistakes will not happen this time, i am talking about the new fighter program.
About the reliability issues from both sides. I don't think that something like that will happen because of both countries long time bussiness relations.
As examples i would like to say that Hochtief was chosen to construct Athens international airport "Eleytherios Venizelos", Athens and Thessaloniki metro as well as major roads in Greece, projects worth billions of Euros.
Also Deutsche Telecom some days ago took a 25% share of Greek Telekocomunications Organizaton (OTE). And the list goes on.
Relations are in a very good stage and this will not change, i am sure about that.
Also about the Leo 2, this issue has been discused in another topic, the program is running and now the tanks are on duty.
About the Eurofighters, the decision made not to buy them in 2004 has dissapointed lots of Greeks, especially those serving in the Air Force. And of course such a decision was a mistake from Greece's side. I hope that the same mistakes will not happen this time, i am talking about the new fighter program.
About the reliability issues from both sides. I don't think that something like that will happen because of both countries long time bussiness relations.
As examples i would like to say that Hochtief was chosen to construct Athens international airport "Eleytherios Venizelos", Athens and Thessaloniki metro as well as major roads in Greece, projects worth billions of Euros.
Also Deutsche Telecom some days ago took a 25% share of Greek Telekocomunications Organizaton (OTE). And the list goes on.
Relations are in a very good stage and this will not change, i am sure about that.
Greece can´t pay! Pictures: new sub now out of water ...
Brand new high tech sub type 214 "Papanikolis" was operational in 2006, has not been delivered and is still located in Kiel for 2 years now, because
Greece doesn´t pay the last rates.
Now it was pulled out of the water becouse mushrooms have settled the sub. Article says that also the german tank-builder Krauss Maffai has problems with greece (not yet payed for the PzH2000???)
The atricles make a fun of greeces plans to order new frigates and german companies are in competition ...
:unknown
Brand new high tech sub type 214 "Papanikolis" was operational in 2006, has not been delivered and is still located in Kiel for 2 years now, because
Greece doesn´t pay the last rates.
Now it was pulled out of the water becouse mushrooms have settled the sub. Article says that also the german tank-builder Krauss Maffai has problems with greece (not yet payed for the PzH2000???)
The atricles make a fun of greeces plans to order new frigates and german companies are in competition ...
:unknown
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Greece hasn't paid the last 20% of the sum because the subs haven't been delivered due to technical problems,we have said these things a million times.And your source is from Germany,I can give you Greek newspaper telling that Germany although the subs have problems pressure Greece to take them so that their fame is not hurt,and also they pressure by using the shipyards problems.Each country supports its own interest,it's very logical.They might make fun,if they lose the 2+ bn frigates contract,I would then like to see who's laughing...
There is no need to argue about financial stuff, as JackGr correctly said the last 20% is not paid yet.
My question would be why the manufacturing company would let such photos in publicity? They are photos taken from the manufacturing company or of some reporter? Are there any official complains of the company to the newspaper which has these photos?
If they are of a reporter and not from the company then i think there should be some kind of security in the shipyards. Especially because of such high technology equipment, i mean the submarines. That made a bad impression here in Greece, especially when the propeller of the submarine is clear in the photo, in which i think there was a great deal of discussion about the very low noise level it produces. And because i think it shows to the ones who know how to analyze things some of the abilities of the submarine.
Personal oppinion, such photos should be somewhere locked and not in the internet.
My question would be why the manufacturing company would let such photos in publicity? They are photos taken from the manufacturing company or of some reporter? Are there any official complains of the company to the newspaper which has these photos?
If they are of a reporter and not from the company then i think there should be some kind of security in the shipyards. Especially because of such high technology equipment, i mean the submarines. That made a bad impression here in Greece, especially when the propeller of the submarine is clear in the photo, in which i think there was a great deal of discussion about the very low noise level it produces. And because i think it shows to the ones who know how to analyze things some of the abilities of the submarine.
Personal oppinion, such photos should be somewhere locked and not in the internet.
HDW is located directly at the opposite waterside of the city and everybody with a good camera can take such shots.
I myself have done this often enough even with my not so professional equipment.
I can see the ships and subs there everytime I drive by bus on my way to the university.
If they have something to hide they do it inside the construction halls.
And I can't see what could be the security problem with these photos.
I myself have done this often enough even with my not so professional equipment.
I can see the ships and subs there everytime I drive by bus on my way to the university.
If they have something to hide they do it inside the construction halls.
And I can't see what could be the security problem with these photos.
BTW you'll probably not see the "real" propeller anywhere in public due to security reasons. If it was the real one it would be covered somehow. So calm down.
BLACK SHIP
New Member
The Greek Navy regarding the photos said that is not a "serious problem " .
BLACK SHIP
New Member
It seems that Greek Navy its not the only one with problems.
ROKN’s Submarine Problems
The ROKN’s submarine plans has hit a bit of a snag when it was discovered that its latest submarine, the ROKS Son Wonil, is noisier (about 40 decibels higher) than expected, making it easier to detect by enemy vessels. The problem has been traced to the screw shaft, and as a result the Son Wonil will be going back to the Hyundai shipyard, where it was built, to have the shaft replaced. In addition its AIP (Air Indepedent Propulsion)unit, which increases its underwater endurance, seems to be not functioning properly and the sub is reported to heel over 40 degrees during cruising.
Interestingly, HDW, the German company that designed the sub, put down USD 5 million of its own money and pledged to solve the problems in one year, before the sub’s commissioning last year. Each of the three initial boats cost USD 350 million and the ROKN is looking to buying six more.
On the other side of the world, Greece is having problems with its own HDW designed sub which is the same class as the Son Wonil. In this case, the Greeks have refused to take delivery of the sub and there are apparently “diplomatic tensions” between Germany and Greece.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/03/15/rokns-submarine-problems/
ROKN’s Submarine Problems
The ROKN’s submarine plans has hit a bit of a snag when it was discovered that its latest submarine, the ROKS Son Wonil, is noisier (about 40 decibels higher) than expected, making it easier to detect by enemy vessels. The problem has been traced to the screw shaft, and as a result the Son Wonil will be going back to the Hyundai shipyard, where it was built, to have the shaft replaced. In addition its AIP (Air Indepedent Propulsion)unit, which increases its underwater endurance, seems to be not functioning properly and the sub is reported to heel over 40 degrees during cruising.
Interestingly, HDW, the German company that designed the sub, put down USD 5 million of its own money and pledged to solve the problems in one year, before the sub’s commissioning last year. Each of the three initial boats cost USD 350 million and the ROKN is looking to buying six more.
On the other side of the world, Greece is having problems with its own HDW designed sub which is the same class as the Son Wonil. In this case, the Greeks have refused to take delivery of the sub and there are apparently “diplomatic tensions” between Germany and Greece.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/03/15/rokns-submarine-problems/
A payment of at least EUR100 million (USD152 million) is outstanding on a Greek order for Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems Type 214 submarines and additional submarine upgrade work for the Hellenic Navy, an industry source close to the programme has told Jane's.
Greece signed a contract for three Type 214 boats for the Hellenic Navy in February 2000 and subsequently a fourth was ordered in May 2002. These were to be built by Hellenic Shipyards Company (now owned by Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems subsidiary Howaldstwerke-Deutsche Werft [HDW]).
The source told Jane's on 4 March: "A substantial three-digit figure in million euros [is] outstanding on this order," adding: "In spite of [the] client's break of contract, there has been no interruption of the work on the Type 214 submarines, nor on the Neptune II programme.
"However, the [Thyssenkrupp] yards are suffering [financial] damages."
At the time of going to press, no spokesperson for the Greek customer was available for comment.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/business/jdi/jdi080306_1_n.shtml
Greece signed a contract for three Type 214 boats for the Hellenic Navy in February 2000 and subsequently a fourth was ordered in May 2002. These were to be built by Hellenic Shipyards Company (now owned by Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems subsidiary Howaldstwerke-Deutsche Werft [HDW]).
The source told Jane's on 4 March: "A substantial three-digit figure in million euros [is] outstanding on this order," adding: "In spite of [the] client's break of contract, there has been no interruption of the work on the Type 214 submarines, nor on the Neptune II programme.
"However, the [Thyssenkrupp] yards are suffering [financial] damages."
At the time of going to press, no spokesperson for the Greek customer was available for comment.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/business/jdi/jdi080306_1_n.shtml
BLACK SHIP
New Member
I wonder if anybody in the right mind will complete payment on a piece of equipment which does not perform as should be.
From recent information the 3rd sub named "Katsonis" has been already launched in the water and the 2nd sub is ready to begin SATs.
Also the 4th sub is being constructed according to the timeline
That means that despite the problems of the 1st sub, the program is still running and maybe that also means that the problems occured in the 1st sub are solved.
By the way i am sure that the ships finally will be delivered to the HN without problems
Also the 4th sub is being constructed according to the timeline
That means that despite the problems of the 1st sub, the program is still running and maybe that also means that the problems occured in the 1st sub are solved.
By the way i am sure that the ships finally will be delivered to the HN without problems
This is the funniest quote I've ever read! The supplier lost faith to his customer! Both Leo and U214 deals were a scandal. The submarines were pre-paid at a rate of 80%! The cost of Hellenic Leo2's was ridiculously higher than other nation's. And you believe that German companies don't want us for a customer?
So you say that Hellas paid 80% of the value, but they don't have the rest of the amount, so they create delays and problems on it's navy availabilitiy? Then why everyone dances, in order to grab than 10 billion euro deal for the new aircraft? I guess EADS and Dassault don't have the very same idea as you...
Greece will not buy German navy ships for a long time, after the U214 fiasco.
Greece will buy 4+2 Frigates, surely the FREMM class. And already activated the option for two Super Vita class British ships.
So the editor of this article can laugh as loud as he can..
there are no news that the problems are solved, but the fact that in the Greek shipyards the construction is continued with no delays, maybe that shows that indeed the problems are solved and the corrections made in the construction of the 2nd sub and the ones to follow, i don't think it would be wish for both sides to continue a program without solving the problems first.
Also there is no news yet about the SAT's of the 2nd sub
Also there is no news yet about the SAT's of the 2nd sub
For someone who is quick in disregarding other forumers as kids, it would be nice if you didn't mix apples and pears, proposed serious solutions to serious business ventures and used technical terms and facts to address serious technical challenges.
For starters, the Leo2HEL IS the best tank in the world because the Greek army officers together with KMW made sure it was. The tank was not initially accepted after it failed a very specific armor penetration test in an area that it was expected to be vulnerable at. After the test proved the Greek officers' concerns, KMW strengthened the armor of the area, the tests were repeated and successfully passed. Naturally the first bunch of the tanks with the rectified issue have been officially accepted and KMW received a 100milion EUR payment on May 30th and are receiving another 183 million this week. See how easy things can be? How about Thyssen Krupp trying to follow the pattern here.
Now, on the "intended Eurofighter deal":
a) Greece had not signed any deals (unlike the Austrians who were trying to cancel the deal way past that, if you happen to recollect)
b) Nevertheless, has officially only stated will postpone the purchase past the 2004 Olympics for obvious reasons
c) Is about to order 40+ Tranche 3 EFs. Patience is a virtue.
I cannot see how anyone in here can speak in the name of his own country or his country's industry so please spare us the "lost faith" comments of your local media. We have very funny and poor media reports of our own to laugh at.
The fact is there are no news of technical substance on the Type214 vessels procurement for a very long time now and the negotiation has reached a dead end between HN and Thyssen.
Therefore, since Greece and Germany have and will continue having very strong ties and common interests in all possible aspects in the future, are trying to resolve this at a government level with the German state acting as a mediator that will verify the sanity of the Thyssen claims to HN technical comments.
I have no doubt myself that these vessels will join HN, unfortunately only later rather than sooner than expected (and very much anticipated as well).
Don't forget we do not procure billions of EUR worth of contracts out of trying to keep an industry afloat or keeping up with our NATO obligations. We are unfortunately not Portugal and are facing a very clear and present threat.
Cheers
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