U-214 SSK problems

[BLACK SHIP]

It is really amusing to say the least to make statements such as "that the German industry lost a lot of faith in their Greek business partners over the U-214 and Leo 2 deals and about how Greece dealt with the intended Eurofighter deal".It seems that they easily forget the C4I system we bought and paid in full for the Olympic games and never worked as it should be.And guess what , it was a German System which still it doesn't work as it should . From now on our future bussines partners better get used to the fact everything they sell should perform as promised or pay the financial penalty .

 

[kato]

That's because it's Siemens. Everyone knows Siemens electronics aren't exactly reliable. :

Well, and it wasn't only Siemens. The C4I system was built by a consortium - Siemens, Motorola, IBM, SAIC (Siemens, General Dynamics, Honeywell, Elbit, Nokia), "and other local partners" (Atos Origins, Technical University of Crete...).

 

[BLACK SHIP]

Siemens was the prime contractor and therefore the first one in the line to blame.

Anyway it seems that a solution is on the works regarding acceptance of the submarines .Probably in a package deal which may include the cancellation of upgrading the third 209 and getting two more 214s.Will see ....

 

[gncantonio]

hello anybody know about the portughese navy U214 subs i think they are almost ready but i´ll like to know more about it?
cheers

 

[orko_8]

hello anybody know about the portughese navy U214 subs i think they are almost ready but i´ll like to know more about it?
cheers

Portugal isn't going to get Type 214, but Type 209PN, though the latter will have more or less the same capability as the 214, including AIP.

The contract, which worth USD 911 million and covering 2 (+1 option) boats, was signed on 21.04.2004. The subs will use the Black Shark torpedo and will be commissioned in 2009 and 2010, respectively.

 

[contedicavour]

With all the U214 delays, how many of the Type 209s are still operational ? I remember the recent update of the first 4, but they are 1970s vintage...

Regarding the Portuguese subs, about time the Daphnes are rusting away !

cheers

 

[Scourge]

All eight of them (four Type 209/1100 and four Type 209/1200) are operational.

There are some delays in the Neptune II upgrade program and it is not expected to be completed before 2012. The program is a total waste considering its cost and the age of the vessels.

The Type 209/1200 ones are quite old also, they will need to be replaced in the next 10-15 years. The HN needs more submarines in addition to the four Type 214s.

 

[contedicavour]

Fully agree. But with all European navies cutting SSK numbers I doubt Greece will replace all 8 Type 209s with Type 214s...

cheers

 

[orko_8]

I have never understood why Greek Navy chose to invest so much money on so much old boats through a so dangeorus and not-operationally-tested-before(*) application with the Neptune II project...

For God's sake. They will be ~50 years old in 2012, the planned end date of the project. If they are to be used for 10-15 years at least, oh boy...

(*): excluding the Japanese and IIRC Swedish experiences.

 

[Scourge]

@orko_8

The first subs were commissioned between 1971 and 1973. That makes them ~ 40 years old. That's not new either though...

@contedicavour

HN once aimed to deploy 12 subs (that could be the reason for the Neptune II program). The number was cut to 8 sometime in 2002.

 

[eliaslar]

The Turkish subs 209/1200 which will have a midlife upgrade, have nearly the same age with the Greek 209/1200. About the Greek 209/1100 and 209/1200 which had the Neptune I/II upgrades, i hope and think that they won't stay in duty for many years.

There was a proposal made for more 214's to the Greek navy. That might sound funny, as the subs that are now under construction have not been delivered to the HN yet, but that might show us that the future HN, will be consisted of 214's only.

 

[orko_8]

The Turkish subs 209/1200 which will have a midlife upgrade, have nearly the same age with the Greek 209/1200. About the Greek 209/1100 and 209/1200 which had the Neptune I/II upgrades, i hope and think that they won't stay in duty for many years.

There was a proposal made for more 214's to the Greek navy. That might sound funny, as the subs that are now under construction have not been delivered to the HN yet, but that might show us that the future HN, will be consisted of 214's only.

Dear Eliaslar,

Below please find and compare the commissioning dates of Turkish Type 209/1200 Ay class and Greek Type 209/1100 and Type 209/1200 class submarines:

S110 Glavkos: 06.09.1971
S111 Nereus: 10.02.1972
S112 Triton: 08.08.1972
S113 Proteus: 08.08.1972
S116 Poseidon: 22.03.1979
S117 Amphitrite: 14.09.1979
S118 Okeanos: 15.11.1979
S119 Pontos: 29.04.1980

S347 Atilay: 23.07.1975
S348 Saldiray: 21.10.1976
S349 Batiray: 20.07.1978
S350 Yildiray: 20.07.1981
S351 Doganay: 16.11.1984
S352 Dolunay: 21.07.1989

The last 2 (+2 option) of Ay class submarines (Doganay and Dolunay) will receive limited modernization by Aselsan and Havelsan covering command, control and communication systems, periscopes, batteries and electrical sub systems. No hull modification or such work will be done. Way too much different (and limited scale) from Neptune II, which includes heavy modification on old and weary hulls.

i hope and think that they won't stay in duty for many years.

Neptune I was a sound project, but why on earth, investing so much money and effort for a non-proven-itself solution on old hulls that won't stay in service for too long? 5 years? 10? Will it worth the effort?

 

[harryriedl]

Dear Eliaslar,

Below please find and compare the commissioning dates of Turkish Type 209/1200 Ay class and Greek Type 209/1100 and Type 209/1200 class submarines:

S110 Glavkos: 06.09.1971
S111 Nereus: 10.02.1972
S112 Triton: 08.08.1972
S113 Proteus: 08.08.1972
S116 Poseidon: 22.03.1979
S117 Amphitrite: 14.09.1979
S118 Okeanos: 15.11.1979
S119 Pontos: 29.04.1980

S347 Atilay: 23.07.1975
S348 Saldiray: 21.10.1976
S349 Batiray: 20.07.1978
S350 Yildiray: 20.07.1981
S351 Doganay: 16.11.1984
S352 Dolunay: 21.07.1989

The last 2 (+2 option) of Ay class submarines (Doganay and Dolunay) will receive limited modernization by Aselsan and Havelsan covering command, control and communication systems, periscopes, batteries and electrical sub systems. No hull modification or such work will be done. Way too much different (and limited scale) from Neptune II, which includes heavy modification on old and weary hulls.

i hope and think that they won't stay in duty for many years.

Neptune I was a sound project, but why on earth, investing so much money and effort for a non-proven-itself solution on old hulls that won't stay in service for too long? 5 years? 10? Will it worth the effort?

it does seem very strange to so comprehensively update these old sub hulls for the price of a new Sub

 

[eliaslar]

Maybe the reason for this is because a new ship even a used one, would need some time to become fully operational, including the training, and a new supply chain in the logistics service, which is something serious.

That isn't such a trouble now with the upgraded ships. So this upgrade is not an "investment" but a solution to a problem until the new subs become operational.

What would happen if the HN bought some used submarines? I am sure it could gain all the advantages they could offer, but i am also sure that if the navy decides to buy 4 new 214's in 2012 or 2015, which is the most logical, then it would be very difficult to retire those "new" subs, for the reasons i mentioned above (training,logistics), not to mention what the media would say about that!

Also many Greek industries (electronics, shipyard etc) took part in the upgrade program of the 209's, that means that people had jobs, some technology was transfered and there was some experience gained, which is always useful. If a used ship was bought none of this would happen.

So money is not always the only way to count a program's value.

That's why i am sure the upgrade of those 209's was the best solution until the 214's become operational.

 

[Waylander]

The Greek U-214 is out of the water again and it seems they are working on it again. I have seen it yesterday while walking along the harbor.
Still a nice comparison size wise with a U-212A and a U-214 right next to each other and out of the water.

BTW, it is Kieler Woche, the biggest sailing festival in the world. Be welcome!
And I missed the open ship day at our navy harbor...

 

[Scourge]

It seems that Papanikolis is under a new round of trials. The excessive rolling problem is reported to be fixed.

Acceptance of the vessel might be close...

 

[hedotero]

Yes, hellenic media wrote that Papanikolis new testings were successful.
So I guess Papanikolis will soon get delivered, and Pipinos will follow later on.

 

[eliaslar]

I would like to add to hedotero that Greek media also commented that all 4 subs, including the ones under construction now, will be operational in 30 months

 

[Sintra]

Portugal isn't going to get Type 214, but Type 209PN, though the latter will have more or less the same capability as the 214, including AIP.

The contract, which worth USD 911 million and covering 2 (+1 option) boats, was signed on 21.04.2004. The subs will use the Black Shark torpedo and will be commissioned in 2009 and 2010, respectively.

The "U-209PN" designation hides (for legal reason´s) the obvious fact that the Portuguese ship´s are indeed two U-214´s...

Cutting short a very long and complicated story, the reason for this strange situation is the following, in the beggining of the bidding process the initial German offer, the original "U-209PN", was a U-209/1500 with AIP. That ship was short listed with the French Scorpene from a list that included a Dutch "Walrus" variation, an Italian "Sauro" proposal, the four RN "Hupholder´s" that ended in the Canadian Navy (thank god that we didnt buy those ship´s) and a swedish proposal.
Shortly after, the usual happened, the MOD budget was "raided" and several programs got postponed. Finnaly, several years late, DCNS and HDW were invited for BAFO (Best and final offers). Then the Germans surprised everyone and proposed a completely new ship, the U-214... that won.
The French and their Portuguese representatives cried "Bloody Murder, that´s a new ship, that´s against the rules and the bidding process must be re started" (USAF Tanker type of situation), and went all the way to the court´s. The arguments were quite correct but, for the relief of the Portuguese Navy, DCNS lost the Court case.
So the "U-209PN" name got stuck to the ships...

http://media.shipspotting.com/uploads/thumbs/Ship+Photo+NRP+TRIDENTE+(S+167)/679502_800.jpg

 

[kato]

The U-209PN design is considerably larger than the U-214 design sold to Greece (by about 15% additional displacement). It is not a U-214 - essentially, U-209PN is an upscaled U-209 with almost entirely U-214 equipment fitted.