U-214 SSK problems

[gf0012-aust]

You blokes need to sort out the nationality issues via PM. If you don't we'll lock the thread.

FYI JackGr. In all the time Falstaff has been a member here he has conducted himself appropriately. He is one of the last people on here that I would imply was racist.

So, get back on topic, or abandon it for others to deal with

 

[JackGr]

I'm sorry,it was that comment for Ebay that motivated me because it was unfair.I take back what I said.I made a question though,if the fact that the sub tilted some degrees is a technical problem or not(not to mention other known issues about U-214).

 

[Falstaff]

I didn't want to offend the Greek people, I have lots of sympathy and respect for the people and their culture (and esp. the food). I'm going to delete the Ebay-part. Back to topic now.

 

[hedotero]

Excuse me.

I've posted a link to a picture (which was presented from a top-rated reporter), showing the submarine taking more than 45o angle! Let's talk about facts:

- Hellas desperately needs its ordered submarines, and by the team we speak, the 2nd submarine is doing sea tests
- Hellas has a long tradition cooperating with HDW on several projects.
- U214 is not an U209 with some improvements. It's a new design, and it seems to be quite problematic regarding noise, high angles and battery efficiency. There was a list of problems, some were fixed, but some, are still there...

 

[Grand Danois]

Excuse me.

I've posted a link to a picture (which was presented from a top-rated reporter), showing the submarine taking more than 45o angle! Let's talk about facts:

Could you elaborate on the circumstances the pic was taken?

 

[kato]

The picture shows the submarine tilting to 50 degrees.

This supposedly had to do with problems with the draining of the upper deck and the sail/tower during fast diving operations. Supposedly, the water didn't drain away fast enough, leading to a change of the point of gravity of the sub.

This problem was supposedly "the first to be solved", and btw subsequently never appeared in the first Korean 214, which was launched 2 years later in 2006. Meaning: that problem is definitely solved since at least two years ago.

Interestingly, the 212A for Germany and Italy, with a similar upper deck / sail design never had this problem - the problem was supposedly identified in the 212A design, and changed before building.

 

[JackGr]

I've read Koreans have experienced the same problem but for them it's not so important,so they don't hesitate as we do.But I can't confirm that info 100%.I doubt the problem with the degrees is fixed,if it did then the sub should have been delivered and accepted.

 

[kato]

I doubt the problem with the degrees is fixed,if it did then the sub should have been delivered and accepted.

Nah, there are a couple other problems. E.g. the (custom-designed) periscope vibrating too much, or something like that.

 

[Waylander]

And as I said. They are not working at the sub since months. It is lying at the pier and nobody is really working on it.
So it looks like HDW is sure that the problems have been solved.

 

[BilalK]

The Pakistani Senate Defence Committee kept raising these "issues" in trying to block the PN from procuring Type-214s from TKMS. Post-election news is reporting that the PN hasn't dropped the deal and may finalize it soon...thus far for $1.9bn USD for 3 or 4 submarines.

 

[JackGr]

As far as I know,work has also stopped in the shipyards here in Greece too.But I suppose this has to do with the fact that if they think there are problems they don't want the two remaining subs to have the same ones.Maybe they stopped in Germany too until a solution is found.

 

[hedotero]

Could you elaborate on the circumstances the pic was taken?

No, although I could search for the whole TV documentary (called "Fakeloi").

 

[JackGr]

It was written in the Greek newspaper "Kathimerini" and many others(after a speech of the Minister) that the Greek Ministry of Defence is going to suggest the use of the German government as a middleman for the subs.The German government is going to create the rules for the acceptance of the subs because as it said by the minister it is Greece that has the problem since Greece paid from 2000 80% of the total sum and recieved nothing.German government recieves the subs at first ,with its guarantee if they approve them,will then pass from Greek tests as a second stage and will then join the H.N.

 

[Falstaff]

Perhaps we should keep these subs for ourselves then. With a few modifications they should serve our Navy quite well although they're not quite as advanced as the 212A's. We could phase out the remaining 206A's a bit earlier. 4 212A, 2 second lot 212's and 4 214's. Sounds good to me.

To be serious: I don't think this will happen. The German government already guarantees financially for the deal, they will most definitely not take over the technical risks as well. Especially since this is about some "perceived" issues which probably won't be solved at all.
I think the Greek government should reject the subs so they can be sold to other customers who certainly will be keen to lay their hands on them. The Shipyard could then be sold to some investor group or so. Problems solved.

 

[JackGr]

Well to be honest I doubt someone will buy some subs for which there are rumours for technical problems ,it's risky,and especially in the price Greece had agreed.Also I would like to see how a refund is possible.Well with the orders of the H.N the shipyards can work for many years ahead no problem for any investor.

 

[eliaslar]

@Falstaff
The Hellenic Shipyards S.A. which are constructing the 3 additional subs in Greece are allready a member of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems.

 

[kato]

TKMS effectively got the submarine deal to compensate them for buying Hellenic Shipyards S.A.

What Falstaff and I both mean by "investors" is the not too distinct likelihood of TKMS selling off the yard if the sub deal doesn't go through. Hellenic Shipyards is producing red numbers only so far - the yard was procured only to get into Greek defence contracts, and about everyone knows it.

 

[eliaslar]

TKMS effectively got the submarine deal to compensate them for buying Hellenic Shipyards S.A.

Can you please explain this?

I agree with you about the intentions of TKMS on buying this shipyards but as long as there will be programs with interest on German ships i don't think that TKMS will sell the shipyards.

 

[eliaslar]

Also i don't think that the TKMS's reliability was harmed on Greek eyes because of the subs. Greek navy already uses the MEKO-200HN frigates and the impressions on these ships are very good.

I don't forget that U214 is a new design and as a new design it will have problems. My oppinion is that finally the subs will be commited with the Greek navy, maybe the postpone is also a matter of politics, to put some pressure on the German side.

Don't forget that there is also the new frigate program running for the Greek navy and the new fighter for the air force, programs with German interest.

 

[Falstaff]

TKMS effectively got the submarine deal to compensate them for buying Hellenic Shipyards S.A.

What Falstaff and I both mean by "investors" is the not too distinct likelihood of TKMS selling off the yard if the sub deal doesn't go through. Hellenic Shipyards is producing red numbers only so far - the yard was procured only to get into Greek defence contracts, and about everyone knows it.

Exactly. The thing is, German industry lost a lot of faith in their Greek business partners over the U-214 and Leo 2 deals and about how Greece dealt with the intended Eurofighter deal.
Greece might be interested in German tech, the question is, is the German industry willing to take the risks.
If the submarine does not go well within an acceptable timeframe it is a logical step to get rid of a shipyard that only produces losses. So it will probably be sold to an international investor group or something like that.
As was stated before by kato, me and others: Most of the problems have been solved. If you don't believe me, believe kato, he knows stuff. Most other nations will be very keen on laying their hands on these submarines. Once again, for us it is very clear that the behaviour of the Greek government is pure tactics in order to postpone further payments. And I hope it won't pay off for you.