U-214 SSK problems

[Kimon]

Well South Korea has taken delivery of its first U-214s, right?!?? There hasn't been any word of troubles with their subs, then the problem isn't with HDW production line, rather something to do with the Greeks themselves. It is odd to see this happening at such a time.

As if the Koreans had the 30 years of experience in U209s and 60 years of experience in subs that the HN Navy has.
The Germans have admitted that most of the problems that have seen the light of publicity existed originally but claim have now been rectified.
The HN officers (mind you not the government) say they have not.
It is a fact that 80% of the total sum for the 4 subs has been paid already so the money issue is channeled to the media by HDW. It is probably true for other acquisitions the Greek MoD has done so that is what makes it believable in this case, although not applicable.

 

[crobato]

Yes, the SK has taken delivery of at least one new Type 214. I uploaded a pic or two in the SDF. In other sub related news, Malaysia has also recently taken delivery of its first Scorpene.

 

[Viper7]

As if the Koreans had the 30 years of experience in U209s and 60 years of experience in subs that the HN Navy has. The Germans have admitted that most of the problems that have seen the light of publicity existed originally but claim have now been rectified. The HN officers (mind you not the government) say they have not. It is a fact that 80% of the total sum for the 4 subs has been paid already so the money issue is channeled to the media by HDW. It is probably true for other acquisitions the Greek MoD has done so that is what makes it believable in this case, although not applicable.

Well then, have you ever considered the possibility that this whole saga could be politically motivated? I mean it is no secret that Pakistan and Turkey share strong military ties and that PN (Pakistan Navy) has recently announced its intention of going for the German U-214s.

Possibilities could exist (eventhough far fetched), that the Greeks are in some way trying to discourage PN from buying the subs, which would inevitably participate in joint naval excersizes with Turkish Navy. As rumor has it, the Greeks have already created a stir in Pakistan. The Senate has already asked PN to justify its choice to go for the U-214s, in light of what the Greeks have experienced.

Either way, in my personal opinion, the Germans are no push overs. They are right up there in submarine technology and have some of the most formidable subs around.

 

[Kimon]

Germans have a history of producing some fine subs yes, but noone deserves a spot on a pedestal by right of god. Papanikolis is a class prototype so German or not my view is it was deemed to face some issues.
If HDW is concerned of the impact on their repuitation they'd better try to meet their customer's needs (and their own specs on paper) and not dispute the existence of child illnesses.
Conspiracy theories are attractive but the PN has India on their back and U214 are littoral waters subs. What would they be doing in the Med leaving the Pakistan coastline unguarded?

 

[Viper7]

Germans have a history of producing some fine subs yes, but no one deserves a spot on a pedestal by right of god. Papanikolis is a class prototype so German or not my view is it was deemed to face some issues.

If HDW is concerned of the impact on their repuitation they'd better try to meet their customer's needs (and their own specs on paper) and not dispute the existence of child illnesses.

Conspiracy theories are attractive but the PN has India on their back and U214 are littoral waters subs. What would they be doing in the Med leaving the Pakistan coastline unguarded?

Well, lemme be the first to bring to your notice that we have just the 'Sub' for that job. Our brand new, shiny Agosta 90Bs!!!

In all honesty, I believe that PN needs to get out more and have alot of excersizes planned out with other countries, in its itinerary. It would bode well for an expanding Pakistan Navy to train its sailors & commanders, and for them to getting to use their new gear. Like the Agosta 90Bs, the F-22Ps, P-3C Orions and from what I've heard, there is a strong possibility of PN aquiring the P-3 Orions with the Hawkeye AWACS.

PN is going for the U-214s, and as you rightly stated "Germans have a history of producing some fine subs", is all the more reassuring that PN would be firm on its decision!!

 

[kato]

Conspiracy theories are attractive but the PN has India on their back and U214 are littoral waters subs.

The U214 is only slightly smaller than a Kilo (in length), you realize that?

Unlike the old 205/206/207/early 209 classes, the 212/214 is very much intended for both coastal and open-ocean use.

 

[gf0012-aust]

and U214 are littoral waters subs.

strongly disagree here. the 214's are regarded as multi-purpose and that includes tasking as bluewater subs, and they certainly have the range to take the fight to, and stay out as bluewater combatants, the perception that they are littoral is far from correct.

I haven't attended any UDT where they're regarded as a littorals only platform.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

strongly disagree here. the 214's are regarded as multi-purpose and that includes tasking as bluewater subs.

And one of the main problems was when the prototype ventured on the Atlantic
for a shake down cruise on certain wave conditions a list more than its safe limits appeared and the German captain had to abandon the mission and return to Kiel.
Then they moved about 25 tons of ballast to rectify the problem measure which proved to be inadequate .

 

[Kimon]

This is the key issue with the vessel that became apparent (to the HDW test crew) on its very first Atlantic ocean cruise a mere 100 miles off the coast of Norway.

 

[ranajee]

Indian court orders probe into French submarine deal

Admin: Text deleted. Off topic.

Please also read the forum rules before any further posting of "comments" as were included at the end of the original oist you made.

 

[kato]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Admin: Text deleted from original quoted text. Off topic.

Corruption is a victimless crime.

Anyway, what does this have to do with the U214?

 

[hedotero]

I don't think there's a political, economical or bad advertise issue.

Hellenic Navy is cooperating with HDW for a long long time, and HDW has developed several features of its 209 in cooperation with Hellenic Navy.

Hellas paid almost the full price in advantage ( ) so there's not really any point delaying the delivery. On the other side, there's a huge list of problems on the submarine, and if the Hellenic Navy could disengage from the program, I'm sure they would choose the old-good 209 type again

there's a picture describing the problem:

img90.imageshack.us/img90/8206/inclination214uh8.jpg

I would prefer not to be there...

 

[kato]

Hellas paid almost the full price in advantage ( ) so there's not really any point delaying the delivery.

TKMS (HDW) last week claimed that Greece has denied payments to the tune of 487 million euro so far.

In my opinion TKMS should just default on the contract (they'd be crazy if there wasn't a legal contract clause for this), sell off Hellenic Shipyard including the two hulls and the future 500-million incurrence to some US investment fund that would ruin it.

It's not like TKMS doesn't have more than enough yards...

 

[Waylander]

And it is not as HDW is still working on the sub. It is ready.
It is lying here at the yard since month with no change of position and I haven't seen workers on it for a long time when I pass by.

 

[JackGr]

What I've read is the the Korean subs also have this problem,but it seems that for them it's not so serious.Well if you ask me,if I give 100$ for something that they say to me that works at 100% efficiency,I expect it to work like that,even if it works at 99% it's not exceptable.I believe Greece won't accept the subs if they won't work as they should that's what Greek media say and most opinions say that it should be cut in the middle because it needs new structural design.

P.S the amount of money not paid is not so large as it mentioned above.Amost all of the amount is already paid.So it's not economical the whole problem,just technical...

 

[Falstaff]

In my opinion TKMS should just default on the contract (they'd be crazy if there wasn't a legal contract clause for this), sell off Hellenic Shipyard including the two hulls and the future 500-million incurrence to some US investment fund that would ruin it.

Like the suggestion.

Fact is, the Greek government isn't acting very cleverly here and if you analyse other procurements you'll find a similar pattern. Fact is, the payments weren't made.
Nobody outside Greece doubts for a second that the behaviour of the Greek government is more than tactics. You bought submarines and at the same time made TKMS sanify Hellenic shipyards, now you can't pay for it. That's it.



Sorry guys, I'm just so fed up with all this pushing away responsibility all the time.

 

[Falstaff]

What I've read is the the Korean subs also have this problem,but it seems that for them it's not so serious.

P.S the amount of money not paid is not so large as it mentioned above.Amost all of the amount is already paid.So it's not economical the whole problem,just technical...

No and no! Simply wrong! Why don't you get it, for heaven's sake.

 

[JackGr]

To our subject,Greece is running a race against Turkey in the field of army expenses,do you really believe we just don't want these subs?We really want them but we paid for something better and we want what we paid for.You live in a foreign country so you don't know anything about what was paid or not,let me that I live in Greece know some things better than you.I expected a better behaviour from Germany about the subs since Greece has given out a lot of contracts to them,Greek media are asking themselves why we reached this point plus that gives an advantage to France for the new frigates.

 

[Falstaff]

I won't reply to your comments about Greece which promote racism,that's not the way civilised people talk....To our subject,Greece is running a race against Turkey in the field of army expenses,do you really believe we just don't want these subs?We really want them but we paid for something better and we want what we paid for.You live in a foreign country so you don't know anything about what was paid or not,let me that I live in Greece know some things better than you.I expected a better behaviour from Germany about the subs since Greece has given out a lot of contracts to them,Greek media are asking themselves why we reached this point plus that gives an advantage to France for the new frigates.Also next time please talk with proofs and not with "what someone said to you"...

Ok, very convincing arguing. 1. I'm a racist and not civilised 2. I know nothing about it. So let's end the discussion.
I'll tell you something, pal, my best buddy is Greek and I spent a lot of time there with his family and you kid don't tell me I know nothing.
Fact is, you want something, pay for it and don't pretend technical deficiencies which aren't there or have been rectified moths ago. Your government did this with the Leo-deal as well. You've run out of money, it's as simple as that.
You want to buy from France? Well, please, please do it. We spent enough money for you.
Ever wondered why every single major deal with the Greek forces have to be secured by a governmental guarantee from the German government, called Hermes-Bürgschaft?

 

[JackGr]

If you think a whole nation doesn't keep deals(e-bay comment then it's like you talk for me too,that's why I said what I said).Also I am over 18 so I am an adult not a kid,although I liked a lot my years of childhood .The Leo-deal is going well,as for the subs,I will ask you only one question to prove you there were technical problems.Didn't the sub tilt some degrees,yes or no?

P.S I am sorry If I offend you in any way,that wasn't my purpose,I think talking in here make us all friends .But I can't understand why we gave so much money before taking the sub and now some people say we are "cheap" and we make tricks for financial reasons...