U-214 SSK problems

Sintra

New Member
The U-209PN design is considerably larger than the U-214 design sold to Greece (by about 15% additional displacement). It is not a U-214 - essentially, U-209PN is an upscaled U-209 with almost entirely U-214 equipment fitted.
No, it´s not.

It´s a slightly longer U-214, three meters to be precise. My source it´s not the internet, i have been in the Alfeite Arsenal, i have seen the model´s, i have talked with several official´s who are involved in the process, one of them his in Kiel now. Every Portuguese defence journo, Portuguese navy or HDW official will confirm my words.
If you can read Portuguese (or if you use an internet translator) the best article about the story of the "U-209PN" (and it´s name) his here:
http://www.areamilitar.net/ANALISE/analise.aspx?NrMateria=15

More here:
http://www.areamilitar.net/DIRECTORIO/nav.aspx?nn=28
http://www.areamilitar.net/noticias/noticias.aspx?NrNot=587


But if you have any doubt just look at the photos and compare any of the more recent U-209/1400 or U-209/1500 with the Portuguese boats, then compare with the South Korean or the HN U-214´s. There are several design features of the U-214 that are absent in any of the variations of the U-209 family, all those features are present in the Portuguese ships.

NRP Tridente
http://www.mdn.gov.pt/NR/rdonlyres/..._Tridente_nos_Estaleiros_Navais_em_Kiel_1.jpg

Papanikolis
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7691/papanikolisib7.png
 
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Falstaff

New Member
Looks like finally there's some action regarding the Papanikolis. The "Financial Times Deutschland" reports that the German procurement agency (BWB) has inspected the boat in Kiel, certified it and said it was flawless. They further say that Greece still refuses to pay probably due to budgetary reasons and that there is a lot of interest from other european nations for the boat. A solution would probably be found during the next few weeks.
And this french site reports that this european nation might be Poland.

Finally!
 

eliaslar

New Member
Do you think it is reasonable for a country to buy a single ship? I think such rumors are flares to make the Greek government pay for the subs. Also...who will give Greece the money we paid since now? And i think it's a lot of money.

I will claim again, as i have done before, that the subs will be delivered to the Greek Navy soon.
 

Falstaff

New Member
Do you think it is reasonable for a country to buy a single ship?
If my very limited knowledge of the Polish navy is correct they are operating a single Kilo-class (and 4 ex Kobben-class) at the moment. A replacement for it might come in handy.

I think such rumors are flares to make the Greek government pay for the subs. Also...who will give Greece the money we paid since now? And i think it's a lot of money.
This might very well be the case. Actually it's what came to my mind in the first place.
However, perhaps it's not the worst of solutions. Greece could take the three other boats for now, leave the unbeloved Papanikolis for HDW to sell (after all, the boat does not have the best image in Greece, does it), wouldn't have to make any other payments and could decide about further boats from the same or another supplier later.
I think if there are any compensations to be made then they will be made. Greece would most certainly have a share of the sales price if they had already partially paid for the boat.

I will claim again, as i have done before, that the subs will be delivered to the Greek Navy soon.
We'll see. According to the article, we shall know in a few weeks.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
HDW cancels submarine contracts with Greece

HDW and HSY are cancelling all contracts regarding submarines with the Greek Defence Ministry as of today.

This affects:
1. The Archimedes project (Type 214 / Papanikopolis)
2. The Neptune II upgrade project for three Greek Type 209

The contracts are being cancelled based on unpaid bills summing up 524 million Euro, with 300 million of that for HSY and 224 million for HDW, and Greece not taking over the first Type 214 submarine. All four Type 214 boats for Project Archimedes are completed and ready for delivery. Both HDW and HSY will go into an arbitration process with Greece regarding dissolvement of the contracts.

Source:
German yard withdraws from Greek contract for high-tech subs : Business (English)
HDW kündigt U-Boot-Verträge mit Griechenland - Unternehmen - Industrie - Handelsblatt.com (German)
 

turin

New Member
It seems about time something like this happens. For all I can see, the Greek government tries to weasel out of a binding contract because they are unable to meet their financial obligations. Hardly suprising really considering the desolate fiscal state of Greece and I am sure, the whole global financial crisis did not improve the situation.

So there would be four Type 214s sitting around waiting for a customer.
 

Firn

Active Member
HDW and HSY are cancelling all contracts regarding submarines with the Greek Defence Ministry as of today.

This affects:
1. The Archimedes project (Type 214 / Papanikopolis)
2. The Neptune II upgrade project for three Greek Type 209
The only surprise is that it took HDW so long to go down this route. It has become increasingly likely that the problems and issues of the first unit, which were seemingly addressed by HDW had become a straw man for the Greek goverment for not paying the fixed price.
 

luca28

New Member
Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Terminates Greek Submarine Contracts

Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com

08:57 GMT, September 22, 2009 defpro.com | The turbulences in Greek submarine procurement programme, which have been hampering any further progress for months, now reached their climax: After having accumulated arrears exceeding €520 million ($762 million) the Greek Ministry of Defence was informed on Monday by Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) that the contract for the construction of four submarines was terminated.

As ThyssenKrupp summed it up on Monday, “the Greek state has long ceased to honour its contractual obligations.” Although the submarines have been completed and are ready for delivery to the Greek Navy, the state refused to pay for the submarines due to technical shortcomings which have allegedly been discovered by the Greek Navy during sea trials in 2006.

As defpro.com already reported in late May (see: defence.professionals | defpro.com), the refusal to meet its contract obligations may also be due to the fact that Greece is facing a huge budget deficit and obviously decided to enter a sort of a complex “waiting game” in order to not have to meet all of the current payment obligations at the same time. Now, TKMS has decided to make an end to this waiting game and announced that it wishes to put the dispute with Greece into arbitration.

TKMS has been involved in two contracts with the Greek state. The first of the contracts, dubbed “Archimedes Project”, was for the procurement of four 214-class boats, which are also successfully operated by the German Navy. Those boats are fitted with a state-of-the-art fuel-cell technology, allowing it to operate submerged for a very long time. According to TKMS, all four were ready for delivery. The second contract has been concluded to retrofit three 209-class submarines with fuel-cell propulsion technology.

The first 214-class submarine, christened Papanikolis, was laid down in Kiel as far back as February 2001 and launched in April 2004. The contract planned for the manufacturing of the remaining three boats at the Hellenic Shipyards, near Athens, which just as HDW is now part of the German ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) group. As soon as the Papanikolis started her sea trials, however, the Hellenic Navy found a veritable host of major and minor problems with the vessel, which until today has resulted in the refusal to accept her.

The Hellenic Navy declared that the submarine suffered from insufficient stability while sailing in rough sea conditions, heeling by as much as 35-58°. Beyond that they found that the AIP system became inoperable after a few hours and noted problems with the ISUS battle system. The official report of the Navy also said that sea water was leaking into the hydraulic systems and that the submarine was not quite as expected. Therefore, Papanikolis has been docked in Kiel since 2006.

German industry accepted some of the shortcomings liabilities and maintains to have finally fixed the problems, however, payment has still not been made. Some expert suggested that Greece has been intentionally protracting the problem in order to delay payments and renegotiate the price. In fact, Greek Defence Minister Evangelos Meimarakis said in January he would try to renegotiate the contract.

Since the delivery of the Papanikolis, TKMS insisted that the submarine “met all standards” and, subsequently, engaged into long and fruitless talks with the Greek government on the issue. In addition to the production of the submarines, TKMS has largely invested in modernising and expanding Hellenic Shipyards site, buying it in January 2005. According to TKMS is has provided Greece with the most modern yard to build non-nuclear submarines on the entire Mediterranean.

Back in May, a ray of hope had appeared, when the Chief of the Hellenic Navy General Staff, Vice Admiral Giorgos Karamalikis, was quoted as saying that the technical problems with the Type 214 submarine were being solved and that Greece could soon be in a position to accept the three follow-on vessels. According to the quote, HDW had been willing to keep the Papanikolis and try to sell it to another interested buyer, which may have been Poland.

Although recent reports do not refer to this earlier development, it seems that this alternative has not been successful, as TKMS has now clearly decided to terminate the contracts and to see that payment will finally be made by the Greek government.

defence.professionals | defpro.com
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The only surprise is that it took HDW so long to go down this route. It has become increasingly likely that the problems and issues of the first unit, which were seemingly addressed by HDW had become a straw man for the Greek goverment for not paying the fixed price.
There are a number of nations that would love to purchase these submarines. Several nations are in the process of buying submarines. If they can buy submarines already built they will get a quick delivery.... TkMS should have no difficulty selling them....
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not as many as one might think. HDW is already handling most of those customers, either with Type 214 itself, or upgrades and refits to Type 209.

The only viable - including politically acceptable - customers that i see right now are Peru (non-upgraded Type 209/1200 from early 80s) and Egypt (improved Chinese Romeos from early 80s). And neither of those is really looking for a replacement iirc...
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Not as many as one might think. HDW is already handling most of those customers, either with Type 214 itself, or upgrades and refits to Type 209.

The only viable - including politically acceptable - customers that i see right now are Peru (non-upgraded Type 209/1200 from early 80s) and Egypt (improved Chinese Romeos from early 80s). And neither of those is really looking for a replacement iirc...
How about Poland wouldn't they be interested in some new Type 214's I heard they were quite interested on this thread in one
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sure. One. That still leaves three others. And since these subs were built to a common (Greek) spec, it would be a bit more sensible to just sell them as a package.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Sure. One. That still leaves three others. And since these subs were built to a common (Greek) spec, it would be a bit more sensible to just sell them as a package.
I meant take the whole fleet and take it as a package
 

chris

New Member
My guess is that HDW is showing it's teeth. We have elections at 4/10 and all polls show that we are going to have a new government. Socialist PASOK will probably win and I think that HDW is sending a message to them. After all, PASOK was the government that ordered the subs and it's rival conservative ND, was the one that stalled the project.

They are even give a slight help to PASOK. All that noise in the local media about the subject, so close to the elections, is in favour of PASOK against the government of ND.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
A great opportunity for Pakistan navy to strike a deal if the finances allow as an order for 3 U214s is waiting to be signed.

A total of 7 U214s would be great.

I remember reading couple of hundred Pakistan Navy sailors have already completed their U214 training in Germany.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Wow I have to check if we also be interested with this ready build 214. The Germans try to offer us before, but the south Korean and the Russian are ahead due to the price and the ToT they provide.
 

eliaslar

New Member
My bet is that 3 out of 4 ships will be finally delivered to the HN, the one which will not be delivered is the Papanikolis. It's the same story as the flares about the various buyers we have read all those months here and i fully agree with Chris it's a matter of pressure to the new government.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My bet is that 3 out of 4 ships will be finally delivered to the HN, the one which will not be delivered is the Papanikolis.
And HDW receives the full price for all four to compensate for the two years delay? :rolleyes:
 

eliaslar

New Member
if i remember well HDW has already received the 80% of the total amount for the submarines...because Greece has prepayed for them
 
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