PUMA - Ultimate IFV presented
- Thread starter ger_mark
- Start date
IIRC correctly they plan with more than 5 million € for one Puma making it scratch the price tag of a modern western tank...
It is defenitely going to be expensive and I am sure this is going to hamper possible export chances.
Does anybody has the price tag for the CV9030 Mrk III for Finland at hand or do I need to do some research? This should be the most capable and most expensive version of the CV90 and would be best suited when one wants to compare price tags.
People tend to look at the Puma and say: "Well, it looks like a big classical IFV with a 30mm gun, what is so special about it except the good protection and modular armor concept?"
But there are some other bells and whistles which are going to make our Panzergrenadiere smile when they change form Marder A3/A5 to the Puma.
Situational awareness is greatly improved and is going to set standards for IFVs, as well as is mine protection. And it comes with a soft kill defense system (MUSS).
IMHO especially the improved SA for the whole crew (including the squad in the back) is going to be really liked by the crews and squads.
This is one of the main reasons for the hefty price tag. All these gismos are really expensive.
It is defenitely going to be expensive and I am sure this is going to hamper possible export chances.
Does anybody has the price tag for the CV9030 Mrk III for Finland at hand or do I need to do some research? This should be the most capable and most expensive version of the CV90 and would be best suited when one wants to compare price tags.
People tend to look at the Puma and say: "Well, it looks like a big classical IFV with a 30mm gun, what is so special about it except the good protection and modular armor concept?"
But there are some other bells and whistles which are going to make our Panzergrenadiere smile when they change form Marder A3/A5 to the Puma.
Situational awareness is greatly improved and is going to set standards for IFVs, as well as is mine protection. And it comes with a soft kill defense system (MUSS).
IMHO especially the improved SA for the whole crew (including the squad in the back) is going to be really liked by the crews and squads.
This is one of the main reasons for the hefty price tag. All these gismos are really expensive.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
The Danish Army has just acquired 45 CV9035 Mk III aka CV9035 DK for 225 million €. That's 5 million € apiece.
Admitted, though I think every piece of lavish gold plating is included. Including new buildings, tooling up, etc.
http://forsvaret.dk/NR/rdonlyres/8682D89D-1635-4688-A18A-A4A3F1742B29/51083/FaktaIKK.pdf
Admitted, though I think every piece of lavish gold plating is included. Including new buildings, tooling up, etc.
http://forsvaret.dk/NR/rdonlyres/8682D89D-1635-4688-A18A-A4A3F1742B29/51083/FaktaIKK.pdf
As long as I know there are no important differences between the finish CV90 and danish CV90 except the gun right?
In the end I hope Denmark got a lot of support, training, ammo, etc with their CV9035 DK. Reminds me of the Leopard IIA5DK purchase. It also looks rather expensive but I expect it to come with a lot of support and stuff.
Ah, I hate trying to get good infos about price tags of AFVs. You never really know what is included or not...
Maybe Denmark is just bad at bargaining...
In the end I hope Denmark got a lot of support, training, ammo, etc with their CV9035 DK. Reminds me of the Leopard IIA5DK purchase. It also looks rather expensive but I expect it to come with a lot of support and stuff.
Ah, I hate trying to get good infos about price tags of AFVs. You never really know what is included or not...
Maybe Denmark is just bad at bargaining...
Grand Danois
Entertainer
We are usually very good at bargaining. I found the legislative acquisition act and discovered that everything was included, even new climate conditioned buildings. And an extensive comms package. Though for how long spares and support is included I cannot see.As long as I know there are no important differences between the finish CV90 and danish CV90 except the gun right?
In the end I hope Denmark got a lot of support, training, ammo, etc with their CV9035 DK. Reminds me of the Leopard IIA5DK purchase. It also looks rather expensive but I expect it to come with a lot of support and stuff.
Ah, I hate trying to get good infos about price tags of AFVs. You never really know what is included or not...
Maybe Denmark is just bad at bargaining...
The Mk III is the latest and greatest version. I don't think it was available in 2004.
What type of launch system will they use, will they be able to fire it while under armor or will they still have the issue of crew exposer as on the Marder series with Milan.
I expect them to be able to use them under armor protection.
They say the Puma is wired for the implemention of ATGMs which sounds like they attach it directly to the sights/FCS of the Puma.
The MILAN on the Marder was in fact used like a normal ground based MILAN with no direct links to the Marder itself despite the mounting.
I have no idea if it can be reloaded under armor protection. As long as I know no further infos are available.
They say the Puma is wired for the implemention of ATGMs which sounds like they attach it directly to the sights/FCS of the Puma.
The MILAN on the Marder was in fact used like a normal ground based MILAN with no direct links to the Marder itself despite the mounting.
I have no idea if it can be reloaded under armor protection. As long as I know no further infos are available.
When are they planning on emplementing them on the Puma, is there a time frame.
They want to have it ready when the Puma enters serial production.
So hopefully (We all know how much can go wrong...) we will not see Pumas entering service without their ATGMs.
At least there should not be that much to do.
Spike LR (Eurospike) is a mature system. The Puma has the general wiring for ATGMs and Eurospike is build by a german company for some time.
I don't expect that many problms like one can expect with a totally new system (PARS 3 for the Tiger comes to my mind).
So hopefully (We all know how much can go wrong...) we will not see Pumas entering service without their ATGMs.
At least there should not be that much to do.
Spike LR (Eurospike) is a mature system. The Puma has the general wiring for ATGMs and Eurospike is build by a german company for some time.
I don't expect that many problms like one can expect with a totally new system (PARS 3 for the Tiger comes to my mind).
Thanks for the information, what is the time frame that they will start fielding Puma to the troops.
Serial Production starting in 2009, about 2 battalions worth (85 IFVs) equipped in 2012, all units (405 IFVs) equipped in 2013.
(BwPlan 2008)
Thank you.
Holger Danske
New Member
Infantry companies equipped with CV9035 and CV90120 will own the world..
Na - you don`t have the armor package for that.Infantry companies equipped with CV9035 and CV90120 will own the world..
Are you stating that the CV90 series offers the same armor protection level as a Puma.
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Holger Danske
New Member
The MKIII version of CV90 can upgraded to GVW 35 tons if you want more armour on it...
I was thinking on the firepower. A CV9035 InfCoy with a CV90120 platoon is my dream-unit...
If you want armour why not take a Nemer/Nammer...
I was thinking on the firepower. A CV9035 InfCoy with a CV90120 platoon is my dream-unit...
If you want armour why not take a Nemer/Nammer...
Integrate CV90120 light tanks into CV9035 mech inf units only makes sense if someone wants to give a mech inf bn some firepower while saving as much logistical footprint as possible.
I don't see many advantages of a CV90120 over a Leopard IIA5DK despite logistics.
IMHO a CV90120 also just fits into an An-124, C-5 or C-17. If you have to use these planes, trains or ships for a deployment one can also send real MBTs.
The CV90120 is interesting if somebody wants to get away from real MBTs due to money problems. Gives you good firepower to integrate into your CV9030/35/40/whatever equipped mech inf units while costing less and not needing a different chain of logistics.
If you have real MBTs (Like Denmark with the Leopard IIA5DK) one doesn't really need it. Maybe to prop up overall firepower without needing to aquire more MBTs but than it is again a question of money.
I don't see many advantages of a CV90120 over a Leopard IIA5DK despite logistics.
IMHO a CV90120 also just fits into an An-124, C-5 or C-17. If you have to use these planes, trains or ships for a deployment one can also send real MBTs.
The CV90120 is interesting if somebody wants to get away from real MBTs due to money problems. Gives you good firepower to integrate into your CV9030/35/40/whatever equipped mech inf units while costing less and not needing a different chain of logistics.
If you have real MBTs (Like Denmark with the Leopard IIA5DK) one doesn't really need it. Maybe to prop up overall firepower without needing to aquire more MBTs but than it is again a question of money.
Germany has played with the idea a couple times. Last iteration that made it to prototype stage was iirc the Begleitpanzer, a Marder with only a 3-man dismount fireteam - but a 57mm automatic gun and a TOW launcher. Of course that was in the late 70s, before they decided to crank out 2,000+ Leo 2s.
Nowadays, getting more and more useless - the Puma (or the CV9035) have near-equal firepower to such systems, especially in regard to pure infantry fire support. And the 105mm/120mm systems a lot of countries use are really used as cheap alternatives for MBTs. Italy and France at least properly label them (AMX-10RC, Centauro B1) "light tanks", not "fast infantry fire support vehicle (with common chassis)".
You are are still 7 tons lighter.The MKIII version of CV90 can upgraded to GVW 35 tons if you want more armour on it...
I was thinking on the firepower. A CV9035 InfCoy with a CV90120 platoon is my dream-unit...
If you want armour why not take a Nemer/Nammer...
but still a awesome vehicle.I am in agreement with you except for the following = AMX - 10RC is a recon vehicle and the Centauro B1 is deemed a tank destroyer.