PUMA - Ultimate IFV presented

[Waylander]

But they are employed in the same role, aren't they? Just the designation is different.
In the end the AMX have been upgraded with high pressure 105mm guns so their tank hunting part is not forgotten in the french army.

They do the same stuff. Convoy protection, recon, fire support and tank hunting...

 

[eckherl]

But they are employed in the same role, aren't they? Just the designation is different.
In the end the AMX have been upgraded with high pressure 105mm guns so their tank hunting part is not forgotten in the french army.

They do the same stuff. Convoy protection, recon, fire support and tank hunting...

Agreed - and I agree with @Kato`s comments also in this topic, they just haven`t bothered to change the designation on these vehicles. It`s funny, but there was a time that the U.S was looking at the AMX10RC as a possible replacement for the M551`s in the 82nd airborne division. The French still list the VBC 90 as a armored car, I wouldn`t mind one of these.

 

[kato]

The French still list the VBC 90 as a armored car, I wouldn`t mind one of these.

And the Italians technically list the Centauro B1 as a (heavy) autoblindo, i.e. a armored car, too...

 

[eckherl]

And the Italians technically list the Centauro B1 as a (heavy) autoblindo, i.e. a armored car, too...

It can all be confusing and you just have to take a look at the vehicles capabilities and what type of mission it will be used for. But I wouldn`t mind a Centauro B1 also

 

[FutureTank]

Infantry companies equipped with CV9035 and CV90120 will own the world..

For about 20-30 years

 

[European]

Germany has played with the idea a couple times. Last iteration that made it to prototype stage was iirc the Begleitpanzer, a Marder with only a 3-man dismount fireteam - but a 57mm automatic gun and a TOW launcher. Of course that was in the late 70s, before they decided to crank out 2,000+ Leo 2s.

Nowadays, getting more and more useless - the Puma (or the CV9035) have near-equal firepower to such systems, especially in regard to pure infantry fire support. And the 105mm/120mm systems a lot of countries use are really used as cheap alternatives for MBTs. Italy and France at least properly label them (AMX-10RC, Centauro B1) "light tanks", not "fast infantry fire support vehicle (with common chassis)".

Wait wait,
Centauro and Amx10rc are different.
They can seem similar, but are totally different. Centauro is a fast 25 tons tank destroyer. Amx10rc is a 15 tons slowly reconnaissance vehicle.
Above all, Centauro has a lot of technical features and is a modern project, meanwhile Amx10rc is an old project (entered in service 1979).
Centauro with 26 tons is alight wheeled tank.

 

[kato]

Amx10rc is a 15 tons slowly reconnaissance vehicle.

I wouldn't call 85 km/h road speed all that slow. Sure, the Centauro can supposedly hit 105 km/h on roads, but cross-country both perform about the same.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, looks like the Puma is going to get a double launcher.

http://www.eurospike.com/downloads/EuroSpike-Profile-and-Products-02-Aug-07-f.pdf

Look at page 5.

Additionally, the SPIKE-LR can be mounted on chain or wheeled combat vehicles
such as the German SPz PUMA, the Czech Pandur, the Romanian MLI-84 and other
vehicles. A comprehensive study has already been completed on integrating a pod
for two EuroSpike SPIKE-LR guided missiles onto the left side of the PUMA turret.

Should be like the launcher shown mounted on the Pandur.
But on the left side? I always thought that it will be on the right. Would be good because of the turret being already left-heavy.

I like it to have 2 missiles ready for launch but it looks like it cannot be reloaded under armor protection.

BTW, picture of Puma on the run.

 

[kato]

In other news, the contract for Puma was officially signed and finalized last Thursday by the parliament's budget committee, for a total price of about €3 billion for 405 vehicles.

 

[Waylander]

Ah, I knew I forgot something...

I hope the Puma is not going to face any serious problems and we'll see it in service without major delays.

 

[Chrom]

Ah, I knew I forgot something...

I hope the Puma is not going to face any serious problems and we'll see it in service without major delays.

So it is 7.5m each vehicle? Erh, that price will put most modern tanks in shame...

 

[kato]

So it is 7.5m each vehicle? Erh, that price will put most modern tanks in shame...

Well, it's better than the four prototypes and the system demonstrator. Those were €50 million each...

 

[eckherl]

Any good reason for going with such a small coaxial machine gun. Does anybody know what type of sensor?? is located on the side of the turret.

 

[kato]

Any good reason for going with such a small coaxial machine gun. Does anybody know what type of sensor?? is located on the side of the turret.

The small caliber is supposedly for logistics reason. No 7.62x51 at all in the entire squad, i.e. no MG3 with the dismounts either.

The "sensor" you probably mean is one of the five builtin cameras.

 

[Waylander]

The sensor to the right of the gunners optic includes in fact two sensors for the ATGM warning system (Which is connected to the passive protection system MUSS). These two sensors cover the frontal and left side.
You can see it on your first picture. The sensor to the left is the same like the one for the front but the slim part of it faces downwards and not upwards like with the frontal sensor.

What looks like a second commanders periscope on top of the original one is the IR-jammer of the MUSS system.

As for the price.
I bet this includes spares, training, simulators,...
But it is still an expensive beast.

 

[kato]

Project Phase contract, signed in 2002: 198 million euro.

Initial four prototypes and the GSD ("whole system demonstrator") cost, signed in 2004: 364 million euro.
The initial prototype/GSD cost includes "peripheral costs".

Serial production package contract cost: 2946 million euro.

The package does not include 16 "planned additional equipment systems", which will cost 578 million euro (what are these? JFST?), and which is yet to be signed.

I don't think spares are included - those would probably be handled by the Heeresinstandsetzungslogistik (HIL). At least i'd highly suspect that Puma is among the "selected weapon systems" handled by HIL. HIL is a public-private partnership involving Rheinmetall and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (which form PSM, the company that produces the Puma), and has been contracted to provide complete maintenance for "selected weapon systems" of the Heer and the SKB (for 1.77 billion euro, btw).

 

[Waylander]

Thanks for the info.

BTW, do you know if AGDUS systems are included in system prices?

Normally every bn should have his own set and one also has to buy the sets for RÜZ and GÜZ + some additional ones.

This stuff is also not that cheap. IIRC the SIM-Fw told me that for one Leo II you could roughly calculate with 25.000€. Should be nearly equal to an AGDUS system for an IFV.

So a minimum of 14 systems per bn (8bns) as well as a lot more for RÜZ, GÜZ, etc.

Not THAT much when talking about a total price of nearly 3 billion € but still...

 

[kato]

AGDUS presumably isn't included.

Iirc AGDUS only consists of four sensors and a central computer that can be reconfigured for about any vehicle.

The BWB sometime recently (September?) signed a contract with Rheinmetall for delivery of another 85 AGDUS systems for the GÜZ; in total the Bundeswehr has somewhere around 480 AGDUS systems now, which should be plenty enough for a while.

 

[Waylander]

Yeah, the sensors and the central computer are the same but the laser is not (And this laser causes a huge chunk of the price).

For example one cannot fit the laser of a Leo II to the 30mm of a Puma.
I do wonder if it is possible to recycle the lasers of the Marders for use with the Puma?

 

[eckherl]

The small caliber is supposedly for logistics reason. No 7.62x51 at all in the entire squad, i.e. no MG3 with the dismounts either.

The "sensor" you probably mean is one of the five builtin cameras.

Thanks for the info, is it feasible that it is a universal mount if the 7.62 if needed, also a point of interest on my part, what is the coax ammunition load out.