PUMA - Ultimate IFV presented

[Waylander]

You would never enter a hot airstrip where you might face heavy armor forces.
And against every other opponent infantry with some Pumas (With ATGMs) as support should be enough to withstand nearly every enemy pushes.
Everything else would be suicide. Or do you want to land in the face of a full armor brigade?

Not even the US airlift that much heavy equipment and everybody else should more think of troop levels like in A-stan with much infantry with their transport assets (IFVs) and some heavy armor/artillery for support if needed.
And the ratio of 4 A400M for 3 Puma C is not that bad.
For that you get a vehicle which is the best armored IFV out there and has enough firepower to go against nearly every middle to low tech enemy.

For every bigger operation against a state like Iran you need a base in a neighbouring country or ask the USMC for a beachhead to ship in your equipment.

 

[lobbie111]

Puma with ATGM's Like the Bradley

I believe the Puma should come standard with ATGM's like the bradley to make the vehicle truly multirole, and it wouldn't hurt if they came up with a puma family such as with the M113 or the ASLAV

 

[lobbie111]

A New Helicopter Maybe

If a new helicopter like the skycrane used by american forces in veitnam was developed to carry a significant payload then all you would need is and advanced team and a paddock and you could muster your IFV and possibly MBT's Just take of the add ons and then put em' back on once you get there. Then a beachhead or an aircraft isn't required.

 

[turin]

I agree with Waylander on the issue of tactical deployment.

As for:

Otherwise (in most cases at least), if you are not in a hurry, you could sealift the stuff.

Yah, but you just cant sealift your stuff everywhere. Some target areas are land-locked, sometimes you dont have permission to use certain seaports etc. The latter issue goes for airports as well, of course, but still strategic deployment just adds to your flexibility (esp. with AC that can land on less-developed airfields), and it offers _much_better time responsiveness. See the current Afghanistan operation for that one.
Note, I am not saying, sealift is not an issue...it is when you are hauling big loads of equipment and have plenty of time. But sometimes its just not an option.

 

[Waylander]

In the magazin SuT they announced that finally the Bundeswehr decided for an ATGM in their search for MELLS (Mehrrollenfähiges Leichtes Lenkflugkörpersystem).

The decided to use Spike-LR which is IIRC also produced by Euromissile under the name Europike.

It is the successor to our Milan system. Integration into the Puma is planned right in time for its introduction.

Great, finally something to be happy about.

 

[kato]

In the magazin SuT they announced that finally the Bundeswehr decided for an ATGM in their search for MELLS (Mehrrollenfähiges Leichtes Lenkflugkörpersystem).
The decided to use Spike-LR which is IIRC also produced by Euromissile under the name Europike.

And they only needed... over two years for that decision.

As for Euromissile and Eurospike... Rheinmetall Defence Electronics builds the command unit/launch system, Diehl BGT builds the missiles.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, thanks for clarification.

"Was lange..."

I also thought that this process needed much too long.
But in the end my favorite missile was picked and the Puma gets its ATGM. Also something I hoped for.

 

[eckherl]

In the magazin SuT they announced that finally the Bundeswehr decided for an ATGM in their search for MELLS (Mehrrollenfähiges Leichtes Lenkflugkörpersystem).

The decided to use Spike-LR which is IIRC also produced by Euromissile under the name Europike.

It is the successor to our Milan system. Integration into the Puma is planned right in time for its introduction.

Great, finally something to be happy about.

So how does it stack up to a Tow 2B, also is it vulnerable to Russia counter measures.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, some specs.

Weight: 26kg.
Range: up to 4000m
IR/CCD seeker
tandem warhead

The missile features "fire & forget" as well as "fire & observe" and is able to track a target after being fired for example from behind cover.

So it one should be able to counter it with IR smoke. Hard and soft (with an IR-laser to blind the warhead) countermeasures should also work.

But I like the Spike-LR more than the Javelin exactly because one can use fire and forget as well as fire and observe. I read stories from Iraq that sometimes Javelin had problems to lock on a target in a difficult environment like for exampl urban areas. There the ability for a man in the loop is really helpfull.

 

[eckherl]

Is there any armor penetration estimates, also what type of launch system will they use, will they be able to dismount it from the vehicle and use it as a ground mount platform. I will find out about the lock on issue with the Javelin. I know that the U.S Army wasn`t too excited to find out how many of them were being expended in combat and they are under tighter control for how many are being handed out.

 

[Waylander]

I found figures of more than 700mm for Spike-LR and more than 1000mm for Spike-ER.

Javelin also as less range than Spike-LR with its 2.500m.

Milan ER was also in the race for our new ATGM.

 

[Karoliner]

Puma and mobility

I'm sure Puma is a great MICV for operations in central Europe (plains...) but does it has the mobilty for operatoions in extremely muddy areas or desserts, sand or snow?

In 2005, there was an exercise in northern Norway, winter conditions, where Nato units and units from Sweden and Finland participated. The norwegian Leopards could only move on roads and where attacked from the rear sides by CV90s operating along the roads. If you don't have the right mobility you're a sitting duck. To be more concrete - look at these clips... In these conditions. the Bradley can't operate off road... and the question is - can the Puma? Don't think so.

Put www before:

youtube.com/watch?v=HAsR7m1wXM0

youtube.com/watch?v=4Iy905XcD2A

youtube.com/watch?v=jTP_vyAybrc&mode=related&search=

The CV90 also have great brakes... Here - a life is saved

youtube.com/watch?v=okly05HmKEA&mode=related&search=

 

[Waylander]

Hmmm, Sweden thinks that their Leos are mobile enough for winter conditions.

The Puma and the CV90 have nearly the same hp/ton.

And I don't think that you should compare the Bradley (not really a youngster anymore...) with the Puma.

The industry and the testing groups are satisfied with the mobility of the Puma.
For a more accurate rating one needs to wait till it arrives in the units and one can get first hand infos.

But I am confident that the new suspension powered by 800kw is able to work in harsh environmental conditions.

 

[Karoliner]

Hmmm, Sweden thinks that their Leos are mobile enough for winter conditions.

The Puma and the CV90 have nearly the same hp/ton.

And I don't think that you should compare the Bradley (not really a youngster anymore...) with the Puma.

The industry and the testing groups are satisfied with the mobility of the Puma.
For a more accurate rating one needs to wait till it arrives in the units and one can get first hand infos.

But I am confident that the new suspension powered by 800kw is able to work in harsh environmental conditions.

You´re right - the Leos are mobile enough for winter conditions, but we don´t use them where you have more than 1 m of snow... and no one else does that too with their tanks. In these conditions you are stuck to the road, if there are any...

The problem is, my own experience also since I'm trained for arctic warfare, that the vehicles can end up on their bellys - the snow is packed and the tracks doesn´t reach the surface - that is what the Bradley has encountered and it´s weight is about 30 tonnes...about the equivalent of the CV90. So, you can´t use your extra horsepower if the tracks don´t touch the surface.

 

[Waylander]

No, but a well build suspension as well as good tracks can save your day.

So what makes you think that a Puma is not able to go were a CV90 can go? I don't say that the Puma has a better mobility or vice versa.

I am confident that the Puma is going to be mobile enough and as I said the Brad is not known for being the best designed IFV when it comes to mobility.

Right now we just don't have enough infos about the mobility of the Puma in normal service so we just cannot rate it exactly.

Right now we know that it has a new and modern decoupled running gear with hydro pneumatic suspension, a good hp/ton ratio given by a modern 800kw engine, new and modern tracks and a ground clearence of 450mm (How much is the ground clearance of the CV90?).

Looking at the pure stats it looks as if the Puma is going to be very mobile but as I said before we cannot finally judge it before it enters normal service.

 

[Karoliner]

No, but a well build suspension as well as good tracks can save your day.

So what makes you think that a Puma is not able to go were a CV90 can go? I don't say that the Puma has a better mobility or vice versa.

I am confident that the Puma is going to be mobile enough and as I said the Brad is not known for being the best designed IFV when it comes to mobility.

Right now we just don't have enough infos about the mobility of the Puma in normal service so we just cannot rate it exactly.

Right now we know that it has a new and modern decoupled running gear with hydro pneumatic suspension, a good hp/ton ratio given by a modern 800kw engine, new and modern tracks and a ground clearence of 450mm (How much is the ground clearance of the CV90?).

Looking at the pure stats it looks as if the Puma is going to be very mobile but as I said before we cannot finally judge it before it enters normal service.

Well, as you say - we'll have just to wait and see. The secret is the chassi and the ground pressure, CV90 has a ground pressure of 0,53 kg/cm² and the new vehicle that Hägglunds is developing, SEP, has an ever lower ground pressure. The ground clearance is 0,45 m.

CV90 - Finland
Specifications:

Crew: 3+8 Max road speed: 70kph
Armament:1x30mm cannon, 1x7.62mm coaxial MG, smoke grenade dischargers Max range (road): 600km
Ammunition: APFSDS, MPLD-T, TP-T Fuel capacity: Not available
Length 6.55m Fording: 1.5m
Width: 3.19m Vertical obstacle: 1.0m
Height: 2.75m Trench: 2.4m
Ground clearance: 0.45mm Gradient: 60%
Combat weight: 27,5 tonnes Slope: 40%
Power-to-weight ratio: > 22 hp/tonne Armor type: Classified
Engine: Diesel developing > 600hp Armor thickness: Classified
Night vision equipment: Yes, commander, driver and gunner NBC system: Yes

 

[Karoliner]

Excellent mobility

Some data about Bradley M3:

Ground clearance: 460 mm
Ground pressure: 0.54 kg/cm2
Weight: 23 tonnes

Soo, What's the secret to excellent mobility?

 

[Waylander]

Suspension!
Having a good suspension has much more influence on your cross country mobility than some more hp, a little bit less ground pressure ore some more ground clearance.

And rating a suspension by published data is much more difficult than rating engine power, ground pressure, etc.

Because of that I said we need to wait for the first reports from day to day business out of the units.

But I am confident that Rheinmetall and KMW haven't messed up the suspension. They have the experience and the capabilities to build a very modern and capable suspension and I hope they made good use of their available ressources.

Tracks are also a factor but with Diehl the tracks of the Puma are provided by a company with an excellent national and international reputation.


In the end there are not many extrem cold and snowish countries left which don't have already bought CV90 (Sweden, Norway, Finland) or will never field a foreign design (Russia, USA).
Only Canada comes to my mind and it is not very likely that they are going to buy real tracked IFVs andytime soon even with their current government.

 

[Karoliner]

Suspension!
Having a good suspension has much more influence on your cross country mobility than some more hp, a little bit less ground pressure ore some more ground clearance.

And rating a suspension by published data is much more difficult than rating engine power, ground pressure, etc.

Because of that I said we need to wait for the first reports from day to day business out of the units.

But I am confident that Rheinmetall and KMW haven't messed up the suspension. They have the experience and the capabilities to build a very modern and capable suspension and I hope they made good use of their available ressources.

Tracks are also a factor but with Diehl the tracks of the Puma are provided by a company with an excellent national and international reputation.


In the end there are not many extrem cold and snowish countries left which don't have already bought CV90 (Sweden, Norway, Finland) or will never field a foreign design (Russia, USA).
Only Canada comes to my mind and it is not very likely that they are going to buy real tracked IFVs andytime soon even with their current government.

Well, I guess you are right. However the tracks are a bit different. The Cv90 has 7 pairs while the Puma has 5. Which configuration that's the best remains to see.

militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2758163"]http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2758163

 

[Waylander]

You don't mean tracks but roadwheels which are an integrated part of the running gear.

The tracks used by the CV90 are IIRC also provided by Diehl.
In the end bad tracks are not the biggest problem of an AFV because one can always use change to other tracks very fast and without many costs. This is not the case with the running gear and suspension.

BTW, it is interesting to see that the roadwheels of the Puma are not symmetric but more close together on the front side than on the back. This is due to it being frontal heavy with all the armor and the engine in the front.