PUMA - Ultimate IFV presented

[Chino]

Thanks for the info, is it feasible that it is a universal mount if the 7.62 if needed, also a point of interest on my part, what is the coax ammunition load out.

I'm very curious about the 5.56, too.

Here's what I found: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Puma_(IFV)?p=1

"The secondary armament is a coaxially mounted 5.56 mm HK MG4 machine gun with an approximate rate of fire at 850 rounds per minute and an effective range of 1000 m. The ammunition capacity is 2000 rounds; 1000 ready to fire and 1000 in storage. While this again is a smaller weapon than the western-standard of using a 7.62 mm caliber MG as secondary armament and may lack power in certain situations, it again offers advantages because it has a higher practical ROF and the crew can use the ammunition in their individual firearms as well. In situations where the lower penetration of the 5.56 mm rounds is an issue, the high ammunition load of the main gun enables the vehicle crew to use one or two main gun rounds instead. Nevertheless, the gun housing can host the 7,62mmm MG3 also."

 

[Waylander]

I would think with just 2000 rounds the Puma has to use the reserve ammo of the sqaud and not vice versa...

In the end I am not that sceptical about the 5,56mm MG as a secondary weapon. The ABM ammo of the 30mm really increases the anti-personal capabilities of the Mauser and it together with the MG4 should be enough.
But 2000 rounds are clearly not enough IMHO.

BTW, eckherl have you seen my post regarding the sensor on the left turret side?

 

[eckherl]

I would think with just 2000 rounds the Puma has to use the reserve ammo of the sqaud and not vice versa...

In the end I am not that sceptical about the 5,56mm MG as a secondary weapon. The ABM ammo of the 30mm really increases the anti-personal capabilities of the Mauser and it together with the MG4 should be enough.
But 2000 rounds are clearly not enough IMHO.

BTW, eckherl have you seen my post regarding the sensor on the left turret side?

Thanks Waylander I just read it, I cant waite until they start getting fielded to see if there is any reliability issues with the electronics, not saying that they will. So is it a safe bet to state that when they start getting fielded that they will have a ATGM capability. Also what type of ammunition will the coax have at its disposal.

 

[Chino]

How do you reload ammo in the coax when it runs out?

Does one have to get out of the tank to reload or can it be reloaded from inside?

 

[eckherl]

I'm very curious about the 5.56, too.

Here's what I found: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Puma_(IFV)?p=1

"The secondary armament is a coaxially mounted 5.56 mm HK MG4 machine gun with an approximate rate of fire at 850 rounds per minute and an effective range of 1000 m. The ammunition capacity is 2000 rounds; 1000 ready to fire and 1000 in storage. While this again is a smaller weapon than the western-standard of using a 7.62 mm caliber MG as secondary armament and may lack power in certain situations, it again offers advantages because it has a higher practical ROF and the crew can use the ammunition in their individual firearms as well. In situations where the lower penetration of the 5.56 mm rounds is an issue, the high ammunition load of the main gun enables the vehicle crew to use one or two main gun rounds instead. Nevertheless, the gun housing can host the 7,62mmm MG3 also."

Thanks Chino - I have recieved similar information, what I was wanting to really know was what type of projectiles will they be using for the coax, I agree with Waylander that 2000 rounds of ammunition is rather limited in some combat scenarios especially providing suppressive fire for your infantry squad, I could go thru 2000 rounds quite easily using a M240 coax on a MBT and that is 7.62 mm.

 

[Waylander]

Exactly what I thought.
Getting 360 rounds belts through the coax is done very fast if one has to surpress enemy infantry.

IIRC the ammo used for the coax will be 5,56x45mm AP. Should have the same penetration capability like a 7,62x51mm with normal ammo up to 600m.

I wouldn't wonder if the Puma gets an upgrade in the future when H&K developes a modern 7,62mm MG as a replacement for the MG3.

And I am also defenitely interested if all the bells and whistles in the Puma are going to work and how our Panzergrenadiere are going to adopt the new vehicle.
It is going to be a huge jump in terms of electronic compared to the Marder. Much more than for example tankers going from Leo 1 to Leo 2.

 

[kato]

It is going to be a huge jump in terms of electronic compared to the Marder. Much more than for example tankers going from Leo 1 to Leo 2.

I think the really big jump in electronics, as far as the dismounts are concerned, already came - through FAUST (the infantry battlefield information system).

Of course about anything declassified on the usage of FAUST is always like... "don't see it, don't hear it, don't comment on it" (ok, it's only been in operational use since 2005, but... you know).

I'm actually not even sure if the PzGren have FAUST in any Marders - JgBtl 292 has 'em by now, in their Fuchs.

 

[Waylander]

As long as I know FAUST is not yet implemented into the armored units.

I am praying for a widespread fielding of FAUST (Or a similar compatible battlefield management system) in our armored forces but so far nothing happened.

There are many countries out there which are ahead of us in using battelfield management systems.

 

[eckherl]

How do you reload ammo in the coax when it runs out?

Does one have to get out of the tank to reload or can it be reloaded from inside?

Ammunition is normally kept in a box underneath your coax and along side of your primary weapon system, you would reload it while inside of the vehicle.

 

[kato]

Well, the Puma turret is unmanned, and from the way it's structured and the MG4 is positioned, i really doubt you can load it under armour.

Btw, for comparison, a Marder 1A3 officially has 4,000 rounds of ammo for its MG3 onboard.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, in the end carrying additional MG ammo is not the biggest problem and that could easily be fixed.

I wonder if the C armor package is going to be fielded during regular duty or if the basic A version will be the usual version.
Should be easier to maintain and should need less fuel.

 

[kato]

I wonder if the C armor package is going to be fielded during regular duty or if the basic A version will be the usual version.
Should be easier to maintain and should need less fuel.

Iirc the original plan was to only procure a limited number of C armor sets, and buy the vehicles in A armor state. I think that's been dropped now, but i'd be rather surprised if regular units in Germany would field C armor versions for training and such (or rather, for just having them stand around).

Mmm, now that makes me wonder if any units will get the idea for a training drill of "attach C armor... without a crane - 20 men, go!"

(back in my times, any piece of equipment was considered liftable - as long as you had one man per 35 kg of weight, and enough space to grab it with all the men :shudder )

 

[eckherl]

Well, the Puma turret is unmanned, and from the way it's structured and the MG4 is positioned, i really doubt you can load it under armour.

Btw, for comparison, a Marder 1A3 officially has 4,000 rounds of ammo for its MG3 onboard.

Why would you design a vehicle turret that you had to reload a coax from the outside regardless if it is manned or not.

 

[kato]

Why would you design a vehicle turret that you had to reload a coax from the outside regardless if it is manned or not.

Umm, there are tank destroyer turrets where you have to reload the autoloader drums from outside too

(anything based on a AMX-13 FL-8/10/12/15 turret)

 

[eckherl]

Umm, there are tank destroyer turrets where you have to reload the autoloader drums from outside too

(anything based on a AMX-13 FL-8/10/12/15 turret)

I am not talking about a tank destroyer but a coax machine gun, so if it jams then you are pretty much screwed for providing suppressive fire for your infantry.

 

[Waylander]

Maybe one has the ability to cock the weapon?

Much more can also not be done by the crew in a manned turret.

If not than you are right that you are screwed if it jams.

 

[eckherl]

Looking at the turret photo it surely shows that you have to gain access to the ammunition bin from the exterior of the turret, what a trip and a bummer. the turret is really cramped with all kinds of goodies. Looking at the photo of the sighting system it looks like some kind of rubber matting with rubber spikes placed on top of it, is this for fascam bomblets.


Sorry gents - the photo that I posted earlier on the rubber matting was a copy righted photo that I did not get permission to post, out of respect for the owner I removed it until I can get permission.

 

[Waylander]

But I know what you mean.
These maths are indeed against bomblets. With the usual dud problem of bomblets one can imagine that even such a system helps.

Here a photo with the maths you mean from www.rommelkiste.de. They've got lots of very nice photos from Puma and other AFVs.

 

[kato]

That's not rubber btw.

Pretty sure it ain't solid steel either though. Probably some steel/carbon fibre/plastic amalgam armour, Rheinmetall does plenty of research and applications (civilian too) in that direction.

 

[eckherl]

But I know what you mean.
These maths are indeed against bomblets. With the usual dud problem of bomblets one can imagine that even such a system helps.

Here a photo with the maths you mean from www.rommelkiste.de. They've got lots of very nice photos from Puma and other AFVs.

Yep - thats the material, kind of a interesting concept, but hey if it works.