India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

[eckherl]

Military projects have a long history of political reasons being more important than actual facts when it comes to a decision about wether a system should be bought/build or not.
I think this is universal all over the world.
I don't want to say that it is the case with the Arjun (I am not sure about it) but only that one cannot say it is a good system because it is finally bought and build.

Agreed - we just seem to have alot of nay sayers inregards to Arjun, and I think that people should place a verdict after it is fielded in quantity and see how it performs, India`s top brass was giving it a thumbs down until they conducted some field testing and they seem to have changed their acceptance of it. (But that could be political also if they do not want to ruin their careers).

 

[suryaaa]

.
who told u that the arjun is comparable to the T-90 brother ????

the arjun weighs around 58.5 tonnes, which serously limits it's mobility.

the trench crossing is also very poor. arjun also has a big radar signature making it very easy to detect& kill.

the arjun uses the 120mm gun whereas the T-90 uses the 125mm smoothbore.

.

see first of all u must consider the main fact that india is new in this field ....having said so they have done a pretty good job with it....yes there is problems with arjun but it can be rectified....if both the sides (drdo and the enduser)analys it together..(at least that is what they r showing as a reason for the problems )they could correct it....coming back to u r question whether arjun is comparable to t90 or not..(well the next version will be )but to me its not fair to compare it to a proven product from the masters of tank building..

 

[funtz]

see first of all u must consider the main fact that india is new in this field ....having said so they have done a pretty good job with it....yes there is problems with arjun but it can be rectified....if both the sides (drdo and the enduser)analys it together..(at least that is what they r showing as a reason for the problems )they could correct it....coming back to u r question whether arjun is comparable to t90 or not..(well the next version will be )but to me its not fair to compare it to a proven product from the masters of tank building..

that is the primary factor the Indian army would first of all need to test these tanks on the field for 1-2 years before it can actually judge them and develop a strategy and a role for these tanks that make use of the strong points and rectify the weak points.

a very good example of this is the Israeli LIC Modeled Merkava Mk-3 Baz / Mk 4

http://www.defense-update.com/products/m/merkava-lic.htm

 

[suryaaa]

that is the primary factor the Indian army would first of all need to test these tanks on the field for 1-2 years before it can actually judge them and develop a strategy and a role for these tanks that make use of the strong points and rectify the weak points.
a very good example of this is the Israeli LIC Modeled Merkava Mk-3 Baz / Mk 4

http://www.defense-update.com/products/m/merkava-lic.htm

I realy admire israeli built merkva ....its superb in israeli conditions but if u take it some where else it wont suit ....so i agree with you that indian army have to make some stern steps to get arjun right...other wise the whole project is going to be sacked....

 

[Archer]

A year old post..

 

[Archer]

Read my last. The original input was provided by the Indian Military Attache to Australia. some 3 months later, C4ISR published an article hilight problems within the Indian Military/Indian Goct and DRDO in bringing some projects to fruition.

C4ISR is a highly respected military magazine - much much higher in credibility than Janes (for example).

None of my sources were Indian newspapers. I'm loathe to cite any information from general media as they invariably get it wrong. To use the Australian media as a stellar example of editorial incompetency - they typically refer to an FGG as a battleship, and have referred to Collins as an SSN (Pleasantly surprised at that little gem)

Or are you suggesting that the most senior ranking outposted Indian Officer in the Southern Hemisphere had no idea what he was talking about?

C4ISR is crap when it comes to India. Its run by the same muffins who do DefenseNews, and the quality of its reportage varies per regional reporter. For C4ISR, its local stringer is Vivek R, who will write a report on why the F-22 is the only choice for Australia, provided you make it worth his while.

 

[gf0012-aust]

C4ISR is crap when it comes to India. Its run by the same muffins who do DefenseNews, and the quality of its reportage varies per regional reporter. For C4ISR, its local stringer is Vivek R, who will write a report on why the F-22 is the only choice for Australia, provided you make it worth his while.

My original primary contact was the Indian Naval Attache (called the military attache, but the last 3 have been Navy and tend to be referred to as Naval Attaches) in Canberra. He was replaced last year on short rotation. Not sure if it was an abnormal rotation or due to change in Govt issues.

 

[Archer]

My original primary contact was the Indian Naval Attache (called the military attache, but the last 3 have been Navy and tend to be referred to as Naval Attaches) in Canberra. He was replaced last year on short rotation. Not sure if it was an abnormal rotation or due to change in Govt issues.

Oh goody- the IAF and IA have a lot to learn from the Indian Navy when it comes to managing large programs! Even though they wont readily agree, but its the plain truth.
Milattaches- you are quite right- can be from any service, but seems that the GOI is sending sealegs to Canberra since its mostly Navex between India and Australia?!

---

On another note, what do you make of the IN Kilos? Dawgs, useful hounds etc viz acoustic profiles?

 

[gf0012-aust]

On another note, what do you make of the IN Kilos? Dawgs, useful hounds etc viz acoustic profiles?

Personally, I think the russians dudded you on the props - and hence acoustic issues.

I think the end lesson for India would have been better served if you'd demanded a degree of local build. Granted you will get exp with other sub builds, but forcing majority local production with both would have fast tracked some critical local skills for future indig programmes.

 

[kay_man]

is the argument abt still on??

 

[kay_man]

i hav been following many discusions about tanks on many sites
and i strongly believe that the arjun is as good as any western mbt

coz,
1 .a team of german engineers was consulted who had worked on leo, while designing arjun........it even looks pretty similar to the earlier leopard models tht were sold to greece
2 . but i would place it a little higher than leo 1 coz of the rifled gun and the kanchan composite armour


i believe im right.....correct me if im wrong

 

[Chrom]

i hav been following many discusions about tanks on many sites
and i strongly believe that the arjun is as good as any western mbt

coz,
1 .a team of german engineers was consulted who had worked on leo, while designing arjun........it even looks pretty similar to the earlier leopard models tht were sold to greece
2 . but i would place it a little higher than leo 1 coz of the rifled gun and the kanchan composite armour


i believe im right.....correct me if im wrong

Do you realize what placing it "a little higher than Leo 1" is like marking it as "pure crap"??? I'm sure Arjun is a lot better than that...

 

[kay_man]

Do you realize what placing it "a little higher than Leo 1" is like marking it as "pure crap"??? I'm sure Arjun is a lot better than that...

actually what i meant was tht ranking wise i would like to place is closer to the leo2

i would place it below leo 2a6 and abrams sep...coz it has not proven itself in battle

but i wod place it higher than chally 2...coz i think the chally 2 is a bit on the 2 heavy side....69 tons propelled by only 1200 hp engine !!

and i wod say the arjun mk2 is DEFINATELY better than t90 and merkava4....
coz the merkava has a less powerful main gun with extra aditions like room for army personels at the back.....maybe it servers their purpose better but still it adds quite a lot of weight

 

[kay_man]

i wouldn't even bother comparing with the al khalid..coz its just chinese copy of a late 80's russian tank and a low tech product at tht
i wod place al-k below the t80vd
and i wod place the t80vd below the t90s

 

[funtz]

Well al khalid is made to the requirements of Pakistan’s army and Arjun to that of the Indian army, comparing them is well complex.

All we have to go by are the specs available in the public domain as access to other info is both illegal and difficult to obtain, that is why all comments by army officials in media do not state the name of the official, and it will mean disciplinary action.

The problems faced were just that "problems" that needed solutions, even the high and mighty T-90 serving with the army had a lot of problems, and they were fixed.

Any ways the specs have been thrown a lot of times in the thread and they are as good as anything out there.

Comparing tanks can not be just about which one is better.

The wait is now for the field performance of the Arjun tanks the army acquired, I'm sure the ministry of defense will ask for it, and if it is satisfactory a lot of Arjuns will be shoved down the army ranks.

Again the Arjun tank will also mean adding a lot of equipment and training to the army as opposed to just going for the T55-72 series upgrades which have served for a long time and have a clear well defined role in the army.

Its easy to blame the army however they already have the equipment, well defined role and trained men (technicians included) to operate the Russian T series tanks and the T 90 is in active service.

Right now T 90 in large numbers and Arjun in small numbers in forward areas can be good as this will save time and cost, this must be done though with the aim of easing in a absolute replacement in the next generation.

There is good reason for technology demonstrators in this world (planes, cars, tanks etc. etc.), even if they do not turn up into actual production models. They pioneer a lot of technological improvements, just look at the Tank – Ex it can provide a new life to a lot of T-72, and provide India with a very capable tank which has a generation leap, and can be fielded in large numbers at a very fast pace.

In a short time a lot of T 72 hulls in nations that cannot afford spending too much money, will become technologically obsolete, tank ex with active Israeli participation can be presented as a cheaper option that will give them a generation leap, who knows may be.

However India have to start somewhere, India can not meet the goal set by the policy maker of a strong military power(as opposed to a strong well equipped military) if 70-80% of It's equipment is simply imported.

Time to start working on the Arjun 2 project, this project should involve a lot of joint R&D, going by the way things are being done nowadays in India, so i am thinking by 2025-30.

 

[kay_man]

Comparing tanks can not be just about which one is better.

The wait is now for the field performance of the Arjun tanks the army acquired, I'm sure the ministry of defense will ask for it, and if it is satisfactory a lot of Arjuns will be shoved down the army ranks.

Again the Arjun tank will also mean adding a lot of equipment and training to the army as opposed to just going for the T55-72 series upgrades which have served for a long time and have a clear well defined role in the army.

Its easy to blame the army however they already have the equipment, well defined role and trained men (technicians included) to operate the Russian T series tanks and the T 90 is in active service.

Right now T 90 in large numbers and Arjun in small numbers in forward areas can be good as this will save time and cost, this must be done though with the aim of easing in a absolute replacement in the next generation
There is good reason for technology demonstrators in this world (planes, cars, tanks etc. etc.), even if they do not turn up into actual production models. They pioneer a lot of technological improvements, just look at the Tank – Ex it can provide a new life to a lot of T-72, and provide India with a very capable tank which has a generation leap, and can be fielded in large numbers at a very fast pace.

In a short time a lot of T 72 hulls in nations that cannot afford spending too much money, will become technologically obsolete, tank ex with active Israeli participation can be presented as a cheaper option that will give them a generation leap, who knows may be.

However India have to start somewhere, India can not meet the goal set by the policy maker of a strong military power(as opposed to a strong well equipped military) if 70-80% of It's equipment is simply imported.

Time to start working on the Arjun 2 project, this project should involve a lot of joint R&D, going by the way things are being done nowadays in India, so i am thinking by 2025-30.

i thought wwe were discussing the goodness of arjun as compared to other tanks......its role is a different concept

but even if u consider role....i think the arjun is more better equipt for combat along the indo pak border
the indo -pak border ismostly flat aluvial plains and deserts

u can see for miles during daytime......so a lower silhoute does nnot mean extra advantage in this region

wht u need is a powerful gun and long range......good armour will help a lot

and i do believe tht the army is to blame for its hasty decisions.....or maybe its the mod
well if we dont put faith in our product who will

and you are right abt prototypes and techno demonstrators...about the tank -ex

but dude,
THEY ARE NOT GOING TO USE THE OLD T72 CHASIS......they are going to buy new ones for the tank -ex
:

 

[funtz]

As I said all we have for comparison are the specifications available in the public domain, (I think there should be a comparative chart of all available specifications and the weapons tanks will use) we also need information of the initial requirement and what was delivered, who knows?

According to available specifications Arjun is as good as any tank, field experience will find out what ever problems still exist and rectify them, however the T90 had already been inducted with the necessary logistics equipment and training acquired or underway, so Arjun had a problem in that field.
Try to find how many Arjuns can be rolled off in a single year, compared to how many T 90s can be acquired.

Arjun has done a lot, a research base is in place, and foreign cooperation in required area is there, now a next generation development can be preformed for completely indigenous tanks in the army through active participation of private industry in India. The aim should be to have a indigenous platform and a industry that can supply the required parts at a good pace.

Right now things are already in motion for the T 90 series (had it been a littlie early it would have been a different story).

u can see for miles during daytime

i have been near some of the forward positions, that was not the case, then again it was a windy day. In J&K i could see for miles and miles up, never been to punjab though.
As for the role in the particular battlefield you mentioned and the requirement

“wht u need is a powerful gun and long range......good armour will help a lot”

There have been numerous tank battles where in similar conditions this was not the only thing that helped a side gain the upper hand, try the Army history of the 1965 war.

Do you have a link stating that no old T-72 can/will be used?

I have searched online and the only link is wiki which doesn’t offer a source that quotes that only new T-72 platform will be used all it says is
"After the trials are over as many as 300 tanks may be ordered from the DRDO in the future and further T-72 hulls may be imported from Russia instead of utilizing the existing ones" which to me sounds as if after the first 300 tanks more might be pricured using imported T-72 platforms, then again english is not my 1st language.
If you have some internal knowledge than do share it with me.

It has not been ordered by the army it is a DRDO independent initiative.

 

[kay_man]

As I said all we have for comparison are the specifications available in the public domain, (I think there should be a comparative chart of all available specifications and the weapons tanks will use) we also need information of the initial requirement and what was delivered, who knows?

According to available specifications Arjun is as good as any tank, field experience will find out what ever problems still exist and rectify them, however the T90 had already been inducted with the necessary logistics equipment and training acquired or underway, so Arjun had a problem in that field.
Try to find how many Arjuns can be rolled off in a single year, compared to how many T 90s can be acquired.

Arjun has done a lot, a research base is in place, and foreign cooperation in required area is there, now a next generation development can be preformed for completely indigenous tanks in the army through active participation of private industry in India. The aim should be to have a indigenous platform and a industry that can supply the required parts at a good pace.

Right now things are already in motion for the T 90 series (had it been a littlie early it would have been a different story).

i have been near some of the forward positions, that was not the case, then again it was a windy day. In J&K i could see for miles and miles up, never been to punjab though.
As for the role in the particular battlefield you mentioned and the requirement

There have been numerous tank battles where in similar conditions this was not the only thing that helped a side gain the upper hand, try the Army history of the 1965 war.


i was saying hypothetically........as we are only comparing tanks right now
according to me visibility and detection of enemy first will definately benefit in any battlefield

as u said u hav been on the northern fronts of india and visibility is not good,
but who uses tanks there....its mountainous terrain no tank in the world can be used there......its basically infantry and airpower

but along punjab and rajasthan borders there are wide open plains and deserts....there u need a tank....and a good 1 at that

now bcoz of metallurgy and techo development the disadvantages of a heavy tank are minimised...so a new age panzer tiger would do a better job than than a new age t-34 in this area

+ arjun has the added advantage that it can engage low lvl aircrafts as well


Do you have a link stating that no old T-72 can/will be used?

I have searched online and the only link is wiki which doesn’t offer a source that quotes that only new T-72 platform will be used all it says is
"After the trials are over as many as 300 tanks may be ordered from the DRDO in the future and further T-72 hulls may be imported from Russia instead of utilizing the existing ones" which to me sounds as if after the first 300 tanks more might be pricured using imported T-72 platforms, then again english is not my 1st language.
If you have some internal knowledge than do share it with me.

It has not been ordered by the army it is a DRDO independent initiative.

about the tank -ex now

when the drdo used existing used chasis of t-72 m1 for tank -ex..even firing a few rounds led to structural anomalies
the arjun turret is very heavy, along with the kanchan composite armour and the recoil and vibrations of tht bad-ass 120mm riffled gun is causing structural integrity issues

so drdo decided to import new chasis from russia and then reinforce them to be able to handle the arjun turret

personally i think tank-ex was a bad idea....u really cant put a hevy turret of a western style mbt on a small tank like t-72... it will raise reliability questions in the long run

 

[funtz]

You very well may be right however

I still have not found anything that describes anything about the performance of the Tank - EX project.

So I can’t comment on the "structural integrity issues"

If you have a link then please share it with me.

But then again even as a demonstrator it was good to see some innovation.

About the Arjun project, I think T 90 is the last Russian tank that will serve in the Indian army.

Unfortunately it is impossible to know anything about how the Arjun is performing on the field, that information will never come out in public.
There was an interview of a JCO who was involved with the arjun tests with DRDO in NDTV, he had served for the most part of his army life working with T-72 and for a small amount of time with T-90, according to him the Arjun was a cut above the russian stuff, i will try to find it on you tube and post the link, however again no specs given so who knows.

I still think and the army wants one MBT and not two that is why they are trying to limit the Arjun induction to 300.

 

[kay_man]

You very well may be right however

I still have not found anything that describes anything about the performance of the Tank - EX project.

So I can’t comment on the "structural integrity issues"

If you have a link then please share it with me.

But then again even as a demonstrator it was good to see some innovation.

About the Arjun project, I think T 90 is the last Russian tank that will serve in the Indian army.

Unfortunately it is impossible to know anything about how the Arjun is performing on the field, that information will never come out in public.
There was an interview of a JCO who was involved with the arjun tests with DRDO in NDTV, he had served for the most part of his army life working with T-72 and for a small amount of time with T-90, according to him the Arjun was a cut above the russian stuff, i will try to find it on you tube and post the link, however again no specs given so who knows.

I still think and the army wants one MBT and not two that is why they are trying to limit the Arjun induction to 300.

about the tank -ex structural issues....i read it along time ago on drdo site.
i dont remember the site but wht i said is true.......its pretty obvious actually , its like transporting a closet on a scooter


i thought only 124 Arjuns were being inducted....i havent heard about 300

if its true then thts good news....300 tanks is a considerable number. it may well be used as a special forces tank
also tht many tanks in the army will keep encouraging the drdo to keep improving the tchnology.....and maybe in the near future we may get to see mk3 and mk4 versions of the arjun


i hav heard ,a new generation armour is being developed by the drdo for the arjun..it is a composite NERA armour and is said to offer more protection than kanchan?????????

and also there is more powerful ammo for arjun.....it will be like a supersized magnum bullet