yes and definitely the weapon of choice for the tank-ex.
India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks
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Do you think that it is better than a M256, and if yes then why.
chinawhite
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The comment is inclusive of South Asia only
I would probably include here early (70x) 125 russian gun. But i wouldnt bet what Arjun 120mm is better than 125mm imporved gun found on T-90 and pakistan (lol, p-a-k-i is banned here?) T-80. In fact, i suspect the completely opposite. In
If I am correct didn`t India come out with this gun in question back around the mid eighties.
Some Pakistanis consider it a derogatory abbreviation - so we respect the fact that its generally regarded as insulting.
In a similar fashion, other "titles" that are regarded as an insult to a nationality are also removed.
In point of fact, I never realised it was an insulting term until I visited this board.
Thats right. Generally, the term is considered an insult in much of Europe(UK mainly). There are some other terms that are also censored/banned here that some mentally disturbed would use for some other nationalities. There are proper names for what you call a person(s) from a particular country, they should be used and encouraged rather than insults. If there is a list of such terms, I would love to have it, not that we are faced with this problem.
Back to the topic folks!
Back in the mid eighties it may of been a better performer, but you cannot just look at the gun, you have to look at the items that are slaved to it ie: ballistic computer, range finding equipment, sighting systems. The Russians are not all the away there yet, but they are closing the gap. Coming out with the Arjun doesn`t give India a real advantage in the armor field.
the current versions of t 90 is same as the same as arjun tank.
today if you have a good training base (hence better fire accuracy and engagement strategy), better ammo which has been fired enough times and gives you a better range (e.g LAHAT).
with the modern ammo rounds being developed to take care of reactive armor Chobham armour and the likes. their is no good tank only good training.
ballistic computer, range finding equipment, sighting systems which are state of art are not difficult to manufacture in any country with even the most modest of tech industries.
today if you have a good training base (hence better fire accuracy and engagement strategy), better ammo which has been fired enough times and gives you a better range (e.g LAHAT).
with the modern ammo rounds being developed to take care of reactive armor Chobham armour and the likes. their is no good tank only good training.
ballistic computer, range finding equipment, sighting systems which are state of art are not difficult to manufacture in any country with even the most modest of tech industries.
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How have you come to that conclusion that a T-90S is comparable with a Arjun, if they are a even match then explain why please. Yes - training does play a major factor on how a unit will fight, but they also need good equipment and bullets.
Price and insured availabilty of imported components. Even IF Arjun is comparable/better than T-90.
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who told u that the arjun is comparable to the T-90 brother ????
the arjun weighs around 58.5 tonnes, which serously limits it's mobility.
the trench crossing is also very poor. arjun also has a big radar signature making it very easy to detect& kill.
the arjun uses the 120mm gun whereas the T-90 uses the 125mm smoothbore.
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I very much doubt you can judge about radar signature based on weight and size. Also, do you have any proof about trench crossing? I cant see anything in Arjun what make it worse in trench crossing...
And I don't see it being very immobile.
For sure bridge crossing could be an issue but normal tactical mobility is given with 1400hp at 58 tons IF the suspension is worth its money.
We've talked about this several times before. An Arjun has ca. 2 more hp/t and less ground pressure per m² than a T-90S. This is important. Not the weight itself.
Actually often enough those stats are overrated. Suspension is still THE key for tactical mobility and a smooth off road ride.
Lets take the Leo II as an example. With the conversion from A4 to heavier versions (A5, A6,...) it hasn't lost any countable mobility. It accelerates a little bit less and its ground pressure is now bigger.
But during a maneuver crews don't feel any coungtable difference.
As said before training is extremely important but why should somebody consider it when we are talking about tanks in the same army. I doubt that Arjun crews are any better trained than T-90 crews and vice versa.
For sure bridge crossing could be an issue but normal tactical mobility is given with 1400hp at 58 tons IF the suspension is worth its money.
We've talked about this several times before. An Arjun has ca. 2 more hp/t and less ground pressure per m² than a T-90S. This is important. Not the weight itself.
Actually often enough those stats are overrated. Suspension is still THE key for tactical mobility and a smooth off road ride.
Lets take the Leo II as an example. With the conversion from A4 to heavier versions (A5, A6,...) it hasn't lost any countable mobility. It accelerates a little bit less and its ground pressure is now bigger.
But during a maneuver crews don't feel any coungtable difference.
As said before training is extremely important but why should somebody consider it when we are talking about tanks in the same army. I doubt that Arjun crews are any better trained than T-90 crews and vice versa.
Overall - the military of India has decided to produce Arjun, I highly doubt that they would build this weapons system if it was inferior to other MBTs in their inventory. As mentioned, weight isn`t a major issue when it comes to mobility.
@Kams
The information that you sent me inregards to the gun recoil system looks really close to what we are testing with our lighter 120mm gun system.
@Kams
The information that you sent me inregards to the gun recoil system looks really close to what we are testing with our lighter 120mm gun system.
They have no choice. They MUST order Arjun to justify cost development and safe face. Arjun one of very few more or less succesfull indian projects. We should look at ordered volumes if we want to know what tank army really want.
Ok from a very wiki point of view (checked the resources they have given, they seem to be accurate to me).
The performance tests of arjun tank most of the aspects are protected from public view even from the right to information act under the national security section so any Indian giving these out in public really can be in trouble until the reports were already available from the concerned agencies(army, drdo, HV avadhi), as for the news reports- A reporter cannot name his/her sources as they will face disciplinary action, and until statement comes out from a army officer who was part of the team analyzing the tank, with name and rank, there is no way these reports can be taken as reliable.
Arjun tank
58.5 tonnes over 10.638 m(l), 3.864 m(w), 2.32 m(h), Kanchan (gold) composite 'honey comb' design NERA (Non-explosive and non-Energetic Reactive Armor, performance test are classified, Laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. Armament, Lahat anti-tank missile HEAT, APFSDS, HESH Rounds, and a 120 mm rifled tank gun which has fired 10,000 test rounds which improves accuracy (hence the name Arjun, a mythological character who was very accurate with a bow) MTU 838 Ka 501 diesel 1400 hp (1040 kW) giving 24 hp/tonne and a hydropneumatic suspensions which can do 450 km on 1610 l (under ideal conditions) this engine has gone through 70,000 kms of testing and if this is true it must have been fine tuned by now. A home grown battlefield management system (a very important component these days).
T 90 tank
46.5 tonnes over 9.53 m(l), 3.78 m(w), 2.22 m(h), Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armor on its hull and turret Shtora-1 countermeasures suite, Integrated Fire Control System, armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS), high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT-FS), high explosive fragmentation (HE-FRAG), Fragmentation-FS, and 9M119M Reflex anti-tank guided missile, from a 125 mm smoothbore gun, 12-cyl. Diesel 1,000 hp (750 kW) giving 22 hp/tonne with a torsion bar suspension.
the two tanks seem in the same class from this data with Shtora-1 countermeasures suite and LAHAT being two advantages,
and a trench crossing of 2.43 m is not poor by any standards
if you need to operate in places where you need 3-4m Trench Crossing then you probably need a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_VIII_(tank)
nfloorl:
now the question why is India buying T90 tanks, well this is the first tank India has developed so developmental period was more than expected and production time is expected to be thirty tanks per year, with the Army requesting fifty per year the T-90 was selected because it is a direct development of the T-72 which India already employs, simplifying training and maintenance, changes are required in the army's logistics establishment to incorporate Arjun MBT, including new rail cars- trucks and both tanks are available in the same price bracket with t 90s at the lower range .
Indian army after Exercise Ashwamedh decided to get the tanks, the technological transfer from DRDO to Heavy Vehicle Factory in Avadi also took time.
As for the whole Vijayanta and Arjun projects. The real value of the Arjun project was setting up heavy tank building industry in India, and to have a research platform in place to provide the nation, the reason behind this is the 3000-5000+ tank strength which is required by the Indian army provides the platform for a tank industry to prosper with in India. All this investment cannot be justified if only 400-800 were required.
By the time Arjun Mk.2 will be required, through all the mistakes made in the Arjun project a research platform and a production platform for the enormous requirements of the Indian army will already be available.
below are some links containing information about the arjun tank
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/17spec1.htm
http://www.ipcs.org/IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf
The performance tests of arjun tank most of the aspects are protected from public view even from the right to information act under the national security section so any Indian giving these out in public really can be in trouble until the reports were already available from the concerned agencies(army, drdo, HV avadhi), as for the news reports- A reporter cannot name his/her sources as they will face disciplinary action, and until statement comes out from a army officer who was part of the team analyzing the tank, with name and rank, there is no way these reports can be taken as reliable.
Arjun tank
58.5 tonnes over 10.638 m(l), 3.864 m(w), 2.32 m(h), Kanchan (gold) composite 'honey comb' design NERA (Non-explosive and non-Energetic Reactive Armor, performance test are classified, Laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. Armament, Lahat anti-tank missile HEAT, APFSDS, HESH Rounds, and a 120 mm rifled tank gun which has fired 10,000 test rounds which improves accuracy (hence the name Arjun, a mythological character who was very accurate with a bow) MTU 838 Ka 501 diesel 1400 hp (1040 kW) giving 24 hp/tonne and a hydropneumatic suspensions which can do 450 km on 1610 l (under ideal conditions) this engine has gone through 70,000 kms of testing and if this is true it must have been fine tuned by now. A home grown battlefield management system (a very important component these days).
T 90 tank
46.5 tonnes over 9.53 m(l), 3.78 m(w), 2.22 m(h), Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armor on its hull and turret Shtora-1 countermeasures suite, Integrated Fire Control System, armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS), high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT-FS), high explosive fragmentation (HE-FRAG), Fragmentation-FS, and 9M119M Reflex anti-tank guided missile, from a 125 mm smoothbore gun, 12-cyl. Diesel 1,000 hp (750 kW) giving 22 hp/tonne with a torsion bar suspension.
the two tanks seem in the same class from this data with Shtora-1 countermeasures suite and LAHAT being two advantages,
and a trench crossing of 2.43 m is not poor by any standards
if you need to operate in places where you need 3-4m Trench Crossing then you probably need a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_VIII_(tank)
nfloorl: now the question why is India buying T90 tanks, well this is the first tank India has developed so developmental period was more than expected and production time is expected to be thirty tanks per year, with the Army requesting fifty per year the T-90 was selected because it is a direct development of the T-72 which India already employs, simplifying training and maintenance, changes are required in the army's logistics establishment to incorporate Arjun MBT, including new rail cars- trucks and both tanks are available in the same price bracket with t 90s at the lower range .
Indian army after Exercise Ashwamedh decided to get the tanks, the technological transfer from DRDO to Heavy Vehicle Factory in Avadi also took time.
As for the whole Vijayanta and Arjun projects. The real value of the Arjun project was setting up heavy tank building industry in India, and to have a research platform in place to provide the nation, the reason behind this is the 3000-5000+ tank strength which is required by the Indian army provides the platform for a tank industry to prosper with in India. All this investment cannot be justified if only 400-800 were required.
By the time Arjun Mk.2 will be required, through all the mistakes made in the Arjun project a research platform and a production platform for the enormous requirements of the Indian army will already be available.
below are some links containing information about the arjun tank
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/17spec1.htm
http://www.ipcs.org/IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf
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Military projects have a long history of political reasons being more important than actual facts when it comes to a decision about wether a system should be bought/build or not.
I think this is universal all over the world.
I don't want to say that it is the case with the Arjun (I am not sure about it) but only that one cannot say it is a good system because it is finally bought and build.
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