The Arjun Tank

[eckherl]

Even that is unproven, and we dont know exact thickness and shape of titanium and rubber sheets anyway.

Titananium plates vary from a quarter inch up to 2 inches.

 

[eckherl]

Its dimensions is pretty well known, its muzzle velocity is also known with some accuracy degree. Plus of course comparable general technological and scientific level means DM-53 should have similar perfomance to M829A3.
Germans are not "content" with anything regarding T-90 penetraton untill they publicaly test it. Else it is just well, wishfull thinking. After all, they cant just tell everyone "look, our most modern round cant penetrate our most likely enemy's tank! We all die!"
They just made best gun and best round they can. They cant make anything better regardless if present APFSDS can or cannot penetrate T-90 armor.

Well they must be real confident in its abilities, and the UK and South Korea believe in it also seeings that they went to L-55 guns. UK will also be using DM63 ammunition.

As far as the M829A3 - lets just say that the performance comparision between DM63 and M829A3 doesn`t warrant the U.S to scramble to replace gun tubes any time soon

 

[eckherl]

Here is the link to Arjun video. Gives a good look at the suspension. The reporter at the end of the video is Col Ajai Shukla (retd) of Poona Horse (Cavalary), IA. He was one of the harshest critic of Arjun.

Video

Good clip - thanks for sharing it.

 

[Chrom]

Titananium plates vary from a quarter inch up to 2 inches.

Is it for T-90 / T-90A or T-90S armor? Are there any other inserts besides titanium, rubber and steel?

BTW, i believe titanium/rubber composition might offer better per-weight protection than DU plates. I think main reason why USA used DU plates is they unsurpassed protection in per-volume basis. And american designers just CANT allow Abrams tank get much bigger than it was.

 

[eckherl]

Is it for T-90 / T-90A or T-90S armor? Are there any other inserts besides titanium, rubber and steel?

BTW, i believe titanium/rubber composition might offer better per-weight protection than DU plates. I think main reason why USA used DU plates is they unsurpassed protection in per-volume basis. And american designers just CANT allow Abrams tank get much bigger than it was.

Encasement fluid may be polyurathane, this should be consistant with T-90A and maybe T-90S. T-90M is a different breed due to turret construction.

We used Titanium 105mm projectiles in the past, (M774) and they tended to shatter or bend, very unpredictable tank round. I would wonder about the feasability as to using Titanium for armor protection, but may be a different story absorbing high velocity impacts. And I agree that Titanium is a lighter material than DU, but what is the best defense against a DU round, just may be a DU plate.

 

[Chrom]

Encasement fluid may be polyurathane, this should be consistant with T-90A and maybe T-90S. T-90M is a different breed due to turret construction.

We used Titanium 105mm projectiles in the past, (M774) and they tended to shatter or bend, very unpredictable tank round. I would wonder about the feasability as to using Titanium for armor protection, but may be a different story absorbing high velocity impacts. And I agree that Titanium is a lighter material than DU, but what is the best defense against a DU round, just may be a DU plate.

In general case steel and other "heavy" metals offer less effective per-weight basis protection than "light" metals and composites.
Just an example - 10m deep plastic will generally offer better protection than 0.5m steel, while weighting less - but for obvious reason it is impossbile to install 10m armor on tank

Of course, projectiles are best made from heavy metals - here volume density is most important for perfomance.

 

[kizilsungur]

Arjun Original
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN.bmp/ARJUN-full.jpg

and my concepts....

Arjun 2 (for Forest Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition.bmp/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 3 (for Desert Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition.jpg/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 4 (for General Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition.jpg/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 5 MM (for Urban Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl.jpg/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl-full.jpg

Thanks

Do you think that a RPG-7 will penetrate the 60 degree frontal arc on a modern MBT.

If the armor is like the composite of M1 Abrams, It cannot penetrate my buddy.

 

[eckherl]

In general case steel and other "heavy" metals offer less effective per-weight basis protection than "light" metals and composites.
Just an example - 10m deep plastic will generally offer better protection than 0.5m steel, while weighting less - but for obvious reason it is impossbile to install 10m armor on tank

Of course, projectiles are best made from heavy metals - here volume density is most important for perfomance.

Agreed - the U.S is conducting extensive testing inregards to using Titanium for gun mounts/recoil systems on tanks to help cut down on some of the weight.

 

[funtz]

The Indian Arjun Tank - is it a big disappointment or a serious effort ?

its more than that,

any tank with weight-efficient protection, a good gun, state of the art Battlefield Management System and countermeasure system, a reliable body and engine, and a wide range of Armaments is a good tank. most of these issues have been resolved, an engine that was reliable was the real problem for the Indian army.

arjun project achieved all the goals it was set and the development cost of the project when compared with international mbt projects carried out during the same era are very competitive.

This project has everything a mbt needs, the most important being a good training regime- without which really nothing matters.

 

[Marsh]

the U.S is conducting extensive testing inregards to using Titanium for gun mounts/recoil systems on tanks

I really should invest in titanium

I think the real problem, Funtz, is the length of time it took to develop. Unless it was clearly superior in every way, after 30 years gestation it was always going to get a little slated.

Does anyone have info on the Abhay vehicle? I spoke to an ex-Indian Army officer who told me it had grown out of a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRD) exercise but the Army' wasn't interested and wanted a more capable APC/IFV platform.

 

[funtz]

time will always be a factor in everything india does partly due to the simple fact that operating alone and on tight budgets with the current status of annual pay of scientists in indian defense sector keeping the talent away. we should learn from pakistani and chinese initiatives, they have helped each other a lot by dividing the financial and human inputs.
well yes marsh i understand the army's problem by the time they have a finished product its time to induct a new one.

 

[Marsh]

A greater degree of cooperative effort may well have helped but the first steps are usually the hardest and I expect future projects will enjoy greater success.

It strikes me that the process suffered from a welter of bureaucratic interference which can be catastrophic in such programmes.

Will the chassis be used for the Bhim, do you know?

 

[funtz]

the red tape is dissapearing especially in drdo and hal as people haave seen the mistakes that were made. well bhim, that project is stalled Denel has to answer a lot of anti corruption charges , i think BEML assembles that(bhim) and they also assemble the arjun chassis & hulls.

 

[kizilsungur]

Arjun Original
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN.bmp/ARJUN-full.jpg

and my concepts....

Arjun 2 (for Forest Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition.bmp/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 3 (for Desert Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition.jpg/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 4 (for General Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition.jpg/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 5 MM (for Urban Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl.jpg/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl-full.jpg

Thanks

 

[suryaaa]

irrelevant post so i deleted sorry

 

[kizilsungur]

Arjun Original
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN.bmp/ARJUN-full.jpg

and my concepts....

Arjun 2 (for Forest Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition.bmp/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 3 (for Desert Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition.jpg/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 4 (for General Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition.jpg/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 5 MM (for Urban Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl.jpg/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl-full.jpg

Thanks

 

[Archer]

The T-90 vs Arjun debate is a farce. Any Indian Army officer will admit that the latter has a far better ammo/gun and Fire control package, not to mention armour, stabilisation, suspension and crew comfort.
But T-90 is simpler, cheaper, more rugged, falls into existing logistics footprint and has a lower silhouette.

This is from DRDO which evaluated both tanks.
http://frontierindia.net/2007/05/

The T-90 is inferior in several key parameters.

Look at the FRHP- First round hit probability for instance. Or stabilization for the armament.

Trust this satisfies Chrom and blahblahblah1.

 

[Archer]

Arjun Original
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN.bmp/ARJUN-full.jpg

and my concepts....

Arjun 2 (for Forest Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition.bmp/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 3 (for Desert Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition.jpg/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 4 (for General Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition.jpg/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 5 MM (for Urban Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl.jpg/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl-full.jpg

Thanks

Nice stuff!!

 

[Chrom]

The T-90 vs Arjun debate is a farce. Any Indian Army officer will admit that the latter has a far better ammo/gun and Fire control package, not to mention armour, stabilisation, suspension and crew comfort.
But T-90 is simpler, cheaper, more rugged, falls into existing logistics footprint and has a lower silhouette.

This is from DRDO which evaluated both tanks.
http://frontierindia.net/2007/05/

The T-90 is inferior in several key parameters.

Look at the FRHP- First round hit probability for instance. Or stabilization for the armament.

Trust this satisfies Chrom and blahblahblah1.

Cant see where they got these data. As article clearly biased towards Arjun, i pretty much doubt what any data besides most basic ones like hp/t ratio are true.

Few clear mistakes (there are a more in that article):

1. "ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank" - false. ERA is effective against both HEAT and APFSDS.

2. "Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend" - very same system is installed on last T-90 batches.

3. "Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500." - false. Allthought i dont know for sure what EFC means in indian army - but i suspect the same thing as in British and USA army. Means 500 charges for HEAT / HESH rounds, and probably around 150 for APSFDS round. T-90 gun have around 1200 for HEAT rounds and about 250-350 for APFSDS round depending on ammunition.

4. Semi-active laser-guided LAHAT - while good on paper, is much more suspectible to ECM and smoke than laser beam-riding REFLECS.

I will not comment on "first hit probability" - becouse i cant see where they got these data. They might be false as well.

And then the hammer... the trials was done in July. WHERE are the results? Where are the glorius reports about successfull Arjuns beating T-90? Not even rumors around....

 

[eckherl]

Cant see where they got these data. As article clearly biased towards Arjun, i pretty much doubt what any data besides most basic ones like hp/t ratio are true.

Few clear mistakes (there are a more in that article):

1. "ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank" - false. ERA is effective against both HEAT and APFSDS.

2. "Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend" - very same system is installed on last T-90 batches.

3. "Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500." - false. Allthought i dont know for sure what EFC means in indian army - but i suspect the same thing as in British and USA army. Means 500 charges for HEAT / HESH rounds, and probably around 150 for APSFDS round. T-90 gun have around 1200 for HEAT rounds and about 250-350 for APFSDS round depending on ammunition.

4. Semi-active laser-guided LAHAT - while good on paper, is much more suspectible to ECM and smoke than laser beam-riding REFLECS.

I will not comment on "first hit probability" - becouse i cant see where they got these data. They might be false as well.

And then the hammer... the trials was done in July. WHERE are the results? Where are the glorius reports about successfull Arjuns beating T-90? Not even rumors around....

Effective full charge means combat rounds, firing training rounds will give you more barrel life. Is the trials that were conducted in July still not available to the Indian media.