dragonfire
New Member
Not to mention the Mine Plough, i hope the mine plough will not be deployed on every tank and is restricted to unit specific route opening vehicles.
The Arjun Tank
- Thread starter Jade
- Start date
I've been trying to look for what exactly were the faults/drawbacks of the MKI, compared to the T-90 which was tested beside it earlier ?
What are the reasons for the development of a MKII model before the first model was put into production and is in service on a large scale ?
What are the reasons for the development of a MKII model before the first model was put into production and is in service on a large scale ?
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Twinblade
Member
Arjun tank has been serially produced since 2008 and over 90 are in service with the Indian Army.
Yes that's exactly what I meant. I know it;s a silly thing to ask, but I was wondering, why so few compared to the Russian T-90 ? There must have been major design & technical issues that prevented more than 90 of this tank being produced, and the MKII being developed at a relatively short notice after the MKI went into production...
dragonfire
New Member
Perhaps it is the new TI system for the commander's sights.
It is more likely the Gunner's new sights
The more i think about it the less worried i am about the mine ploughs though
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dragonfire
New Member
From the first order of 124 already 110 have been delivered. This apart from the (perhaps wrong) info that the earliest order was for 48 nos which were delivered prior to latest comparative trials. Either ways atleast 110 have been delivered.
The drawbacks of the Arjun in comparison to the T-90 were not really divulged post the comparative trials, the IA instead focused on; and rightly so; on the modifications required from the tank which would get better performance and results from the tank. In the trials the Arjun had outperformed the T-90S on almost all counts.
This is whole another debate, also keep in mind the atmosphere up until a couple of years ago was very negative for this tank, hopefully the Mk II will be able to regain the lost years by way of getting further orders.
Twinblade
Member
Now as per Gen Sundarji's doctrine for war against Pakistan, any Indian invasion would be led by a massive armored thrust slicing through the deserts and plains of Pakistan and dividing the country into two. The 2000 odd T-72's were considered sufficient for the job till the late 80's, till Pakistan started testing M1's. This sent shock waves though the army brass and the Arjun design was reset to be able to have a fighting chance but the prototypes were unable to meet the design goals. So 390 T-90's were brought to spearhead the armored column when T-84 was procured. The army discovered several shortcomings in the T-90 as well, but the biggest advantage of T-90 was that it did not require any change in the doctrine. T-90 enabled the IA to make minimum changes in training, logistics base and was a worthy adversary to the T-84, so despite the shortcomings, T-90 was a sure shot winner.
Till 2002-3, the Arjun project was on the verge of getting scrapped, the electronics failed in summers of northern India where temperature inside tank reached 60*C (the IA was against the air conditioning of tanks citing higher maintenance and operating costs, but AC was ok'ed after even the T-90 displayed the same issues), the fire control system was full of bugs, the gun stabilisation wasn't performing as advertised, the transmission system had a few issues as well, the Kanchan armor was performing ok, but the design of the turret fell way behind in terms of protection as compared to contemporary tanks. Basically, Indian Army, a little too used to operating T-72 (with the whole armor doctrine built around it) wanted performance levels of western technology with high availability rates, achievable even with less intensive maintenance training of crew(something akin to Soviet philosophy) and at an Indian price. And yeah not only that, it had to be survivable against an M1 (later T-84), but also be able to kill it. Considering the mountain of expectations, the Arjun project was bound to have a rough ride and the IA was already operating a very capable tank, which though not perfect for the Indian conditions was good enough.
IA went ahead and ordered T-90 in huge numbers, while DRDO brought in a lot of foreign consultants to make Arjun better. The electronics were redesigned to perform in higher ambient temperature, the gun stabilisation system worked like a charm thanks to the pneumatic suspension system, leading to very high gun accuracy (v/s a trade off of lower muzzle velocity due to rifled gun) the crew comfort levels were way higher as compared to T-90. As per DRDO's claims, the Kanchan armor, provided higher levels of protection for the crew. The tank put lower pressure on the ground and had a better mobility as well. So in the end, army got the tank they wanted (T-90) and DRDO had the last laugh. But now Arjun cannot be ordered in massive numbers, because we the army went ahead and ordered 1600 T-90s, and the T-72's can still be put to good use after upgrades. These numbers are already massive. The Arjun might get an order of 248 more units as speculated in the media to recover the project costs, but the IA now wants the T-72s to be replaced by the next generation of tanks post 2020.
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dragonfire
New Member
List of Major Modifications & Arjun Mk II updates
This is a list of the 19 'Major' Modifications which were suggested on the Arjun Mk II, the same is being implemented.
1. Missile firing capability
2. Commander’s TI panoramic sight Mk II
3. Driver’s uncooled thermal imaging night sight
4. Additional ammunition (don’t ask… won’t tell!)
5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator
6. Effective alternative to muzzle reference sight (MRS)
7. Resin-based CCC
8. Ten-round containerised bin
9. Explosive reactive armour panels
10. Infra-red/Thermal imaging resistant paint
11. Air defence weapon remote firing
12. ALWCS (advanced laser warning and countermeasure system)
13. Roof mounted driver’s seat
14. ATT in GMS (gunner’s main sight)
15. Advanced land navigation system
16. New final drive with increased reduction ratio
17. Advanced running gear system
18. New track system
19. Mine plough
Of the total 93 total modifications 45 have already been tested out this summer and the rest are scheduled for 2012.
Content above is attributed to Article by Ajai Shukla from his blog - broadsword
Looks like the DRDO is really pushing forward to make a very strong case for more orders, articles are coming out about how with more orders the cost per tank will brought down. How the ToT for the T-90S has not happened properly resulting in slow down on Indian production of the tank and how in comparison the Arjun and Mk II fares very well and outperforms the T-90
This is a list of the 19 'Major' Modifications which were suggested on the Arjun Mk II, the same is being implemented.
1. Missile firing capability
2. Commander’s TI panoramic sight Mk II
3. Driver’s uncooled thermal imaging night sight
4. Additional ammunition (don’t ask… won’t tell!)
5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator
6. Effective alternative to muzzle reference sight (MRS)
7. Resin-based CCC
8. Ten-round containerised bin
9. Explosive reactive armour panels
10. Infra-red/Thermal imaging resistant paint
11. Air defence weapon remote firing
12. ALWCS (advanced laser warning and countermeasure system)
13. Roof mounted driver’s seat
14. ATT in GMS (gunner’s main sight)
15. Advanced land navigation system
16. New final drive with increased reduction ratio
17. Advanced running gear system
18. New track system
19. Mine plough
Of the total 93 total modifications 45 have already been tested out this summer and the rest are scheduled for 2012.
Content above is attributed to Article by Ajai Shukla from his blog - broadsword
Looks like the DRDO is really pushing forward to make a very strong case for more orders, articles are coming out about how with more orders the cost per tank will brought down. How the ToT for the T-90S has not happened properly resulting in slow down on Indian production of the tank and how in comparison the Arjun and Mk II fares very well and outperforms the T-90
Thanks alot for the info, guys.
Those are quite a number of shortcomings and modifications. The ability for a tank's engine & electronics to remain cool in an environment like the Thar desert is vital in my opinion (60*c inside must fel like sitting in a pressure cooker ). Seems like the MkII will be Arjun in name only. Those are alot of upgrades & changes to simply call it MkII. Might as well buy M1 A2 SEPs or Merkava Mk4s.
BTW isn't the ALWCS the Trophy system that the Merkava has, but imported from Israel ? Or is it an indigenously developed one ?And isn't the enhanced ammunition penetrator an experimantal/prototype technology. The only one of it's kind are the PELE rounds that have only been sold to Denmark for testing.
That is news for me lol.
P.S. A couple of observations :
I was under the impression that the MkI already had reactive armor plates, the same detatchable ones that could be used on the T-90.
Most russian/soviet tanks have been (in)famous for the complete lack of crew comfort in them. Even some of their aircrafts ( Tu-95 ).
It's not my place to comment on this but, the turret of most modern battle tanks are sloped, not flat like the Arjun's, to provide better protection.
I have also wondered, why opt for the shorter range of a rifled barrel instead of the longer range & velocity of a smoothbore barrel ? The americans have had alot of success with it in engagements of both extremely long & short range with this type of gun barrel. Even the T-90 has a larger calibre ( 125mm ) smoothbore cannon...
Those are quite a number of shortcomings and modifications. The ability for a tank's engine & electronics to remain cool in an environment like the Thar desert is vital in my opinion (60*c inside must fel like sitting in a pressure cooker ). Seems like the MkII will be Arjun in name only. Those are alot of upgrades & changes to simply call it MkII. Might as well buy M1 A2 SEPs or Merkava Mk4s.
BTW isn't the ALWCS the Trophy system that the Merkava has, but imported from Israel ? Or is it an indigenously developed one ?And isn't the enhanced ammunition penetrator an experimantal/prototype technology. The only one of it's kind are the PELE rounds that have only been sold to Denmark for testing.
That is news for me lol.
P.S. A couple of observations :
I was under the impression that the MkI already had reactive armor plates, the same detatchable ones that could be used on the T-90.
Most russian/soviet tanks have been (in)famous for the complete lack of crew comfort in them. Even some of their aircrafts ( Tu-95 ).
It's not my place to comment on this but, the turret of most modern battle tanks are sloped, not flat like the Arjun's, to provide better protection.
I have also wondered, why opt for the shorter range of a rifled barrel instead of the longer range & velocity of a smoothbore barrel ? The americans have had alot of success with it in engagements of both extremely long & short range with this type of gun barrel. Even the T-90 has a larger calibre ( 125mm ) smoothbore cannon...
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dragonfire
New Member
The modifications are not necessarily because of shortcomings the 'un-modified' Arjun Mk I is what performed superlatively in the comparative trials. I think the T-90S is still not having air conditioning.
If the Arjun Mk II modifications have left us flabbergasted i wonder what will the IA expect from the FMBT
For the rest will reply later - just not enough time now - cheers
Twinblade
Member
Sorry for the late reply, that's the laser warning countermeasure system (?) as per the colonel's blog.
I feel kind of sorry for ressurecting this thread, but there are quite a few developments regarding the Arjun and other things that might be discussed here.
An improved version known as Arjun Mk. 2 (Image) is sheduled to be tested in a comparision with the T-90 Bshima at the 1st of June 2012. This version of the Arjun main battle tank incorporates 93 improvments; amongst others it will feature improved protection (mainly due to the additionof ERA), new sighting and sensor system and an remotely-operated weapon station.
It is expected that a further 124 Arjuns will be ordered.
First tests of the Arjun Mk. 2 have started two days ago at the 10th of May.
Works on the next version of the Arjun, the Arjun Mk. 3 have already started as reported at the 26th of January 2012 by the IDRW News Service.
Some other things regarding the Arjun:
The Arjun is a rather bad designed tank. Due to the placement of the armour, which follows more or less the Soviet design doctine, while having a "long" Western-style turret the Arjun features some "gaps" at the side (Drawing, Image), where no composite armour is located, only simple steel (with a thickness probably below 10 cm) and large storage boxes. The storage boxes might help against older types of rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), because the amount of stand-off distance prior the armour generated by them could theoretical be enough to reduce the penetration capability of the RPG's HEAT jet to such an extend, that it will not penetrate the base armour. More modern HEAT rounds (anti-tank guided missiles, RPGs) and probably all large-caliber KE rounds (APDS and APFSDS) will penetrate the armour there without any problems. This less armoured area of the turret can be hit from every angle greater than 17° - the rear part of the turret, which is still vulnerable since the Arjun appearantly does not feature an isolated ammunition comparment (at least the one displayed on DEFEXPO 2012 didn't have an isolated ammunition storage) can be hit from angles greater than 10°. Even in case of a frontal engagment the Arjun remains pretty vulnerable.
Another problem of the Arjun is the front turret layout. The sights are placed in early Leopard-2-manner at the turret front and not on the roof (Image), which means that at the place where the gunner's sights are located the armour is thinner (in case of the Leopard 2A4 the armour is about 1/4 thinner there). Even more problematic might the huge mantlet area be (Image) - the mantlet is thinner than the distance from turret front to gunner's sight, which means that the composite armour there is only half as thick as at the rest of the turret front. Other tanks also feature less armoured gun mantlets (actually all tanks do), but the size of the mantlets have been reduced and is very much smaller than this.
Also their ammunition is not the best, and it's performance is limited by the out-dated gun design. Their APFSDS ammunition (Image) has a length slighty below 50 cm - that's comparable to mid-80s APFSDS (like the British L23 and the German 120 mm DM23), at the same time modern Western APFSDS have a length from 70 to 80 cm (slightly more for the M829A3). The low muzzle velocity of only 1,650 m/s and the low volume lead to a low performance. it will have a total kinetic energy of approximately ~9 MJ including sabot (based on reported speed and weight values), the current Western rounds have muzzle energies up to 13 MJ. The current APFSDS for the Arjun will likely not outgun their T-90s in terms of armour penetration.
Regarding the problems with the armour placement: it seems that other countries (China, Pakistan, South-Korea, etc) also place very few armour at the turret sides making their tanks vulnerable to what NATO and Soviets expect(ed) to be hit in a frontal engagement.
An improved version known as Arjun Mk. 2 (Image) is sheduled to be tested in a comparision with the T-90 Bshima at the 1st of June 2012. This version of the Arjun main battle tank incorporates 93 improvments; amongst others it will feature improved protection (mainly due to the additionof ERA), new sighting and sensor system and an remotely-operated weapon station.
It is expected that a further 124 Arjuns will be ordered.
First tests of the Arjun Mk. 2 have started two days ago at the 10th of May.
Works on the next version of the Arjun, the Arjun Mk. 3 have already started as reported at the 26th of January 2012 by the IDRW News Service.
Some other things regarding the Arjun:
The Arjun is a rather bad designed tank. Due to the placement of the armour, which follows more or less the Soviet design doctine, while having a "long" Western-style turret the Arjun features some "gaps" at the side (Drawing, Image), where no composite armour is located, only simple steel (with a thickness probably below 10 cm) and large storage boxes. The storage boxes might help against older types of rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), because the amount of stand-off distance prior the armour generated by them could theoretical be enough to reduce the penetration capability of the RPG's HEAT jet to such an extend, that it will not penetrate the base armour. More modern HEAT rounds (anti-tank guided missiles, RPGs) and probably all large-caliber KE rounds (APDS and APFSDS) will penetrate the armour there without any problems. This less armoured area of the turret can be hit from every angle greater than 17° - the rear part of the turret, which is still vulnerable since the Arjun appearantly does not feature an isolated ammunition comparment (at least the one displayed on DEFEXPO 2012 didn't have an isolated ammunition storage) can be hit from angles greater than 10°. Even in case of a frontal engagment the Arjun remains pretty vulnerable.
Another problem of the Arjun is the front turret layout. The sights are placed in early Leopard-2-manner at the turret front and not on the roof (Image), which means that at the place where the gunner's sights are located the armour is thinner (in case of the Leopard 2A4 the armour is about 1/4 thinner there). Even more problematic might the huge mantlet area be (Image) - the mantlet is thinner than the distance from turret front to gunner's sight, which means that the composite armour there is only half as thick as at the rest of the turret front. Other tanks also feature less armoured gun mantlets (actually all tanks do), but the size of the mantlets have been reduced and is very much smaller than this.
Also their ammunition is not the best, and it's performance is limited by the out-dated gun design. Their APFSDS ammunition (Image) has a length slighty below 50 cm - that's comparable to mid-80s APFSDS (like the British L23 and the German 120 mm DM23), at the same time modern Western APFSDS have a length from 70 to 80 cm (slightly more for the M829A3). The low muzzle velocity of only 1,650 m/s and the low volume lead to a low performance. it will have a total kinetic energy of approximately ~9 MJ including sabot (based on reported speed and weight values), the current Western rounds have muzzle energies up to 13 MJ. The current APFSDS for the Arjun will likely not outgun their T-90s in terms of armour penetration.
Regarding the problems with the armour placement: it seems that other countries (China, Pakistan, South-Korea, etc) also place very few armour at the turret sides making their tanks vulnerable to what NATO and Soviets expect(ed) to be hit in a frontal engagement.