The Arjun Tank

[kizilsungur]

First concept is Arjun Orijinal Tank. You know it. There are 18 in India.

The others are my concept. The second is for forests, the third is for deserts, the fourth is for general combats and the lastest is for urban combats.

Thanks for your constructive critisism.

:india :turkey

 

[funtz]

The T-90 vs Arjun debate is a farce. Any Indian Army officer will admit that the latter has a far better ammo/gun and Fire control package, not to mention armour, stabilisation, suspension and crew comfort.
But T-90 is simpler, cheaper, more rugged, falls into existing logistics footprint and has a lower silhouette.

This is from DRDO which evaluated both tanks.
http://frontierindia.net/2007/05/

The T-90 is inferior in several key parameters.

Look at the FRHP- First round hit probability for instance. Or stabilization for the armament.

Trust this satisfies Chrom and blahblahblah1.

This is not from drdo it says so in the article itself

"Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) have collated the features of Arjun MBT and T-90S for the reader’s judgment of the capabilities of the tank."

All evaluations that the drdo does are generally treated as national defense secrets.

T90's era has been designed to deal with KE rounds (sabot-rod) through thicker plates which after the initial explosion might break the rod or at least absorb some of the impact

 

[Chrom]

Effective full charge means combat rounds, .

WHAT combat round? Every round have "wear coefficient" which shows how much damaged the barrel after this round.

This "coefficient" can differ up to 10 times for different round. Useally it is from 1 for low-velocity HEAT/HESH rounds and up to 5 for APFSDS rounds. For example, M1A1 barrel can fire about 1200 HEAT rounds but only about 300-350 APFSDS rounds. For rifled barrel the difference is most likely even more pronounced.

Plus, this coefficient is VERY depended from temperature. For example, round fired from 10 C barrel will wear gun about 4 times less than round fired from 80 C barrel. Again, for rifled guns the difference should be even greater.

 

[eckherl]

WHAT combat round? Every round have "wear coefficient" which shows how much damaged the barrel after this round.

This "coefficient" can differ up to 10 times for different round. Useally it is from 1 for low-velocity HEAT/HESH rounds and up to 5 for APFSDS rounds. For example, M1A1 barrel can fire about 1200 HEAT rounds but only about 300-350 APFSDS rounds. For rifled barrel the difference is most likely even more pronounced.

Plus, this coefficient is VERY depended from temperature. For example, round fired from 10 C barrel will wear gun about 4 times less than round fired from 80 C barrel. Again, for rifled guns the difference should be even greater.

I agree with you on this, but must countries when practicing gunnery skills do not use full charge ammunition or use expensive heavy metal alloys, these are deammed training rounds. You can fire a heck of alot more of these rounds than combat rounds.

 

[kams]

And then the hammer... the trials was done in July. WHERE are the results? Where are the glorius reports about successfull Arjuns beating T-90? Not even rumors around....

If you had bothered to do even a superficial Google search, you would have learned that Trials are scheduled in September 2007(atleast as per statement of defence minister!). BTW IA accepted another batch of Arjun, bringing the total no. to 24 (or 23).

 

[Archer]

Cant see where they got these data. As article clearly biased towards Arjun, i pretty much doubt what any data besides most basic ones like hp/t ratio are true.

Oh please, enough already. The data is from the trials held for the T-90 which included a DRDO team. They - at this point of time, know far more about the T-90 and its strengths and weaknesses than 90% of the people on the net, including you & I.

Few clear mistakes (there are a more in that article):

1. "ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank" - false. ERA is effective against both HEAT and APFSDS.

They are speaking of Gen1 ERA developed (and not implemented) for the Arjun, not the T-90S. If it helps, look only at the tables and ignore the text.

2. "Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend" - very same system is installed on last T-90 batches.

Last T-90 batches. And why do you think that was?

3. "Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500." - false. Allthought i dont know for sure what EFC means in indian army - but i suspect the same thing as in British and USA army. Means 500 charges for HEAT / HESH rounds, and probably around 150 for APSFDS round. T-90 gun have around 1200 for HEAT rounds and about 250-350 for APFSDS round depending on ammunition.

If they say twice- then its twice. For the ammo that the T-90S is firing in indian service. India has often discovered that actual service performance of Russian items does not match brochure figures at all. Should we discuss your Refleks and the difference between the claims and the reality, hmm?

4. Semi-active laser-guided LAHAT - while good on paper, is much more suspectible to ECM and smoke than laser beam-riding REFLECS.

In theory and all that ...sure. And how many Refleks and LAHAT have you fired personally?

I will not comment on "first hit probability" - becouse i cant see where they got these data. They might be false as well.

They got the data from the firing trials conducted on Arjun and T-90S. Face it, the T-90s stabilization and FCS is not the equivalent of the Arjuns.

FYI- nor does the Indian Army think it is. If I were to publish what they think of some aspects of the T-90, your ears would turn red.

And then the hammer... the trials was done in July. WHERE are the results? Where are the glorius reports about successfull Arjuns beating T-90? Not even rumors around....

Some hammer, more like a wet rag. The above is just a comparative result of how the T-90 was seen to perform in Indian conditions, versus what the Arjun has shown.

The rest doesnt really matter, since the Indian Army already regards the T-90 as a simpler, proven tank of the T-72 Lineage and has chosen to go upon it. Despite its horrible flaws, which is a shame- the greatest one being its lack of ammunition separation.

Fact is, that most of the details shown above- including the automotive and rest, come directly from T-90S trials in India, and are available nowhere else on the net.

And in MANY critical parameters, the Arjun IS a better design than the T-90S, as are many other heavy tanks.

Please wake us all up, when the T-90S stops being an incendiary tinderbox filled with ammo not separatd from the crew.

 

[Archer]

This is not from drdo it says so in the article itself

"Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) have collated the features of Arjun MBT and T-90S for the reader’s judgment of the capabilities of the tank."

All evaluations that the drdo does are generally treated as national defense secrets.

T90's era has been designed to deal with KE rounds (sabot-rod) through thicker plates which after the initial explosion might break the rod or at least absorb some of the impact

Wrong. FIDSNS contacted DRDO and got those details. Look at their other reports citing DRDO or contact Chacko Joseph himself and he will confirm it to you.

For once, fed up with the constant barrage of motivated and half baked rubbish that passes for analysis, DRDO has revealed some data, including many details not available on the net.

 

[eckherl]

If you had bothered to do even a superficial Google search, you would have learned that Trials are scheduled in September 2007(atleast as per statement of defence minister!). BTW IA accepted another batch of Arjun, bringing the total no. to 24 (or 23).

What, no tests of Arjun in July are these tanks going to a front line unit or are they going to be placed for training purposes.

 

[Chrom]

Oh please, enough already. The data is from the trials held for the T-90 which included a DRDO team. They - at this point of time, know far more about the T-90 and its strengths and weaknesses than 90% of the people on the net, including you & I.




They are speaking of Gen1 ERA developed (and not implemented) for the Arjun, not the T-90S. If it helps, look only at the tables and ignore the text.

In article they speak if it is applied to T-90 ERA. "ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank. Arjun Tank has ERA protection as add on feature, while T-90S has it as a regular feature. A tank with ERA has a weight penalty.
- as i said, false. ERA SAVES weight. Per-weight basis ERA is 3-4 times more effective than ordinary composite protection both against APFSDS and HEAT threats.

Last T-90 batches. And why do you think that was?

There is little point comparing 10 years old T-90 with not-even-in-proper-service Arjun. We should compare modern T-90 with modern Arjun. Besides, as i said, there are clear mistakes in the article. The article itself is clearly biased toward Arjun - so any numbers without explicit proof and full report including testing conditions are doubtable, no matter what Chacko Joseph tells.

If they say twice- then its twice. For the ammo that the T-90S is firing in indian service. India has often discovered that actual service performance of Russian items does not match brochure figures at all. Should we discuss your Refleks and the difference between the claims and the reality, hmm?

Yes, please. Lets discuss it. Russian ATGM's was always known as extremely reliable piece of equipment.

In theory and all that ...sure. And how many Refleks and LAHAT have you fired personally?

Of course, i didnt fired both personaly. However, guiding method tells us a lot about ECM and smoke fields resistance.

They got the data from the firing trials conducted on Arjun and T-90S. Face it, the T-90s stabilization and FCS is not the equivalent of the Arjuns.

FYI- nor does the Indian Army think it is. If I were to publish what they think of some aspects of the T-90, your ears would turn red.

Then why Arjun is still produced in low double digits figure and even not fully in service? May be becouse Arjun still contains a lot more "red face" aspects than T-90?

Some hammer, more like a wet rag. The above is just a comparative result of how the T-90 was seen to perform in Indian conditions, versus what the Arjun has shown.

The rest doesnt really matter, since the Indian Army already regards the T-90 as a simpler, proven tank of the T-72 Lineage and has chosen to go upon it. Despite its horrible flaws, which is a shame- the greatest one being its lack of ammunition separation.

Fact is, that most of the details shown above- including the automotive and rest, come directly from T-90S trials in India, and are available nowhere else on the net.

And in MANY critical parameters, the Arjun IS a better design than the T-90S, as are many other heavy tanks.

Please wake us all up, when the T-90S stops being an incendiary tinderbox filled with ammo not separatd from the crew.

There is no doubt what general Arjun layout is superior to T-90 - mainly becouse of separate ammo compartment. But is it enouth to overcome other Arjun defeciences?
Btw, by that logic Leo-2A4 and Challenger are also "incendiary tinderbox filled with ammo not separatd from the crew". And USA M-60 is just a big hot coffin waiting to be ignited.

Only real, public Arjun trials will clear all doubts.

 

[nero]

lahat

.

india would be better served if they opt for the T-95 instead of the bulky arjun.

the t-95 is not only more advanced than the arjun , but also CHEAPER. in terms of per unit cost.

also the T-95 weighs only 50 tons compared to the 58-tonnes of the arjun

The T-95 MBT is armed with a 135mm gun which is believed to be of the smoothbore type and is fitted with a new fire control system (FCS). Target information is provided via optical, thermal imaging and infra-red channels. The FCS also includes a laser range finder and possibly a radar. The design relies heavily on the FCS as the crew cannot use traditional optical devices to observe the battlefield and aim the gun.

the main feature of the T-95 is its radical configuration with the main armament in a small unmanned turret fed from a newly-designed automatic loader located below the turret .

Seats for the driver, gunner and commander are in a special armoured capsule, separated by an armoured bulkhead from the automatic loader and turret. This design allows the MBT's silhouette to be reduced, making it less observable on the battlefield and enhancing crew safety. Such a configuration resolves a major dilemma concerning modern MBT design - combining adequate protection with mobility and transportability.

.

 

[funtz]

.

india would be better served if they opt for the T-95 instead of the bulky arjun.

the t-95 is not only more advanced than the arjun , but also CHEAPER. in terms of per unit cost.

also the T-95 weighs only 50 tons compared to the 58-tonnes of the arjun

The T-95 MBT is armed with a 135mm gun which is believed to be of the smoothbore type and is fitted with a new fire control system (FCS). Target information is provided via optical, thermal imaging and infra-red channels. The FCS also includes a laser range finder and possibly a radar. The design relies heavily on the FCS as the crew cannot use traditional optical devices to observe the battlefield and aim the gun.

the main feature of the T-95 is its radical configuration with the main armament in a small unmanned turret fed from a newly-designed automatic loader located below the turret .

Seats for the driver, gunner and commander are in a special armoured capsule, separated by an armoured bulkhead from the automatic loader and turret. This design allows the MBT's silhouette to be reduced, making it less observable on the battlefield and enhancing crew safety. Such a configuration resolves a major dilemma concerning modern MBT design - combining adequate protection with mobility and transportability.

.

There have been no quotations on the per unit cost of a T-95, if you have access to something, then please share it with me.

By the time T-95 it is mass produced and made available for export Indian army "might have" a 1000tank requirement, and if after the whole arjun project we still need to import tanks, well quite frankly the taxpayer might just take a moment and shout "what the hell"

furthermore a expensive Arjun2 Tank will (even with FCS etc. imported) create jobs in India and help the economy.

This is absolutely off the topic however it can evolve in the required time to be a major factor,
the last time i checked there were more firms from Japan, EU, USA employing people in India.

 

[Chrom]

furthermore a expensive Arjun2 Tank will (even with FCS etc. imported) create jobs in India and help the economy.

This is absolutely off the topic however it can evolve in the required time to be a major factor,
the last time i checked there were more firms from Japan, EU, USA employing people in India.

The funny part is what T-90 probably create even more jobs in India than Arjun. Becouse Arjun components (and maintainance parts) are imported to higher degree...

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,interesting news here,indian army has conducted field trials of the production variant of the arjun main battle tanks and has accepted them,a few minor defects were detected during the field trials ,these were rectified by the army and the drdo,the indian army has given the clearance for the production of these new tanks.

here check out this link and article:

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=30867

Rajya Sabha

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed many systems and sub-systems, which have been accepted by the Armed Forces and are in use by them. Apart from excellent contributions to the strategic programmes, it has developed missiles, radars, sonars, an advanced weapon system, unmanned aircrafts, command and control system, NBC reconnaissance vehicle, logistic systems, like Armoured Engineer Reconnaissance Vehicle, Multi-span Mobile Bridging system, etc. Projects on Electronic Warfare, Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) have made commendable progress. Few of the projects have been delayed for genuine technological and field trials and evaluation reasons.

Against a set target of Rs. 12072 crore, projects totaling to Rs.11385 crore has been taken up, during X Plan.

The project for development of Main Battle Tank, Arjun was completed in March 1995 with a total expenditure of Rs.305.60 crore, with delivery of 12 prototypes and 15 pre-production series of Arjun Tanks. Army has placed an indent of 124 MBT Arjun on Ordnance Factory Board/Heavy Vehicle Factory, and deliveries commenced.

Light Fighter Plane, Tejas is in Initial Operational Clearance phase. Expenditure incurred in Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-I was Rs.2188 crore and in phase-II is Rs.2195.76 crore. IAF has already placed order for one squadron of Aircraft to Initial Operational Clearance standards.

Army has evaluated the MBT in field trials and accepted it. A few minor defects were noticed during field evaluation of production tanks, which were analysed jointly by DRDO and Army. These production defects were rectified by DRDO and HVF and clearance for production of MBT Arjun has been given by Army.

This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Surendra Lath in Rajya Sabha today.

 

[eckherl]

So what type of minor defects were found during the trials and addressed.

 

[amitluvslca]

hey guys,check out this interesting link,it provides some information regarding the benefits of the fully combustible cartridges being develoed indigenously for the arjun and the other indian battle tanks.

here is the link:

SM Group was among the first to develop and manufacture combustible catridge cases in India in association with all major wings of Ministry of Defence, namely, DRDO (Defense Research & Development Organisation), DGOF (Director General Ordnance Factories) and DGQA (Director General Quality Assurance).
S M Group has successfully productionised both Felting technology and Resin based Hot pressing technology for manufacture of Combustible Cartridge Cases for 120mm HESH & FSAPDS, 125mm FSAPDS and 155mm BMCS munitions.
Having supplied hundreds of thousands of cumbustible cartridge cases to meet specific ammunition needs of the Indian army for their main battle tank , ARJUNA and the T-72 & T-90 series of Russian guns , SM group is today one of the leading manufacturers of combustible cartridge cases as well as plant and machinery for the same.
The effort of the group in this regard have been best acknowledged by Government of India by awarding a National award for Indigenization of defense products to the parent company in the year 1998.
Advantages

Combustible cartridge cases bring numerous advantages compared with conventional metallic cases:

• Fully combustible concept, i.e no spent cases.
• Improved crew compartment enviroment due to reduction in noxious fumes and clutter from spent metal cases.
• Total round weight reduction.
• Addithonal energy to fire.
• Incresed firing rate.
• Reduction in barrel wear.
• Compatiblity with automatic loading due to high mechanical properties.
• Contribution to charge vulnerablity reduction : lower reaction level for all types fo threats.

please tell me if the arjun turret is stabilised bcause no site gives any info abt tht..

 

[eckherl]

Yes - the turret is fully stabilized with a 2 axis system in place, could be also easily upgraded to a 3 axis system if not already in consideration for it.

 

[funtz]

The funny part is what T-90 probably create even more jobs in India than Arjun. Becouse Arjun components (and maintainance parts) are imported to higher degree...

well the parts that are imported for the arjun project are not quite produced in India, they are imported from Russia and assembled here in India.
However, yes i see the point- both T-90 and Arjun will create jobs in India.

305.60 crore ah! so much for money wasted, i think that is quite competitive considering the various prototypes that have been built and the time frame.

For any defense analyst here- Kindly share comparisons of R&D cost of major MBT projects if you have access to them.

 

[Archer]

Chrom

If you insist on decieving yourself that the data in the prior article was "incorrect", when it is anything but and comes from actual tests, you are welcome to your own thoughts. I dont have all the time in the world to sit and debate, mores the pity.

Your statement that the imported components are a big issue for India is only true thanks to the T-90 purchase. If not for the T-90, India would mass manufacture the Arjun and all these items are open for licensed manufacture in India, same as the T-90.

As regards ERA, Arjuns protection w/o ERA is much better than the T-90, something proven in Army trials.

So what type of minor defects were found during the trials and addressed.

The German Gun control system was sent by the manufacturer without recalibration. It seized up in the initial trials. The DRDO removed it, rechecked, and recalibrated it for the 60 deg setting- worked thereafter. The GCS is going to be manufactured in India as well.

Amongst the 15 odd tanks, one tank had a hydropneumatic strut fail. It was replaced. The suspension is manufactured by Indian engineering major, Larsen & Toubro Ltd (name apart, its a local firm based out of Bombay )

The Army then insisted that wet fording be demonstrated. It was.

This is the latest on the Arjun. Note that the author is a former Col, of the Armoured Corps, known critic of the Arjun & DRDO and a savage one at that. He is a through and through T-72 man:


http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070025577

Arjun tank's comparative trials called off

Ajai Shukla
Sunday, September 9, 2007 (New Delhi)
For three decades, India's Arjun tank project has struggled and has been scoffed at by experts and dismissed by the army.

The army, in fact, refused to accept the tank into service until comparative trials were held pitting the Arjun against the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.

But now, mysteriously the army has asked the Ministry of Defence to call off the comparative trials.

The T-72 has proved itself over years, says the army, and the T-90 is even better - only the Arjun needs to prove itself.

Meanwhile, the army is going ahead with buying 347 more T-90s paying a billion dollars to Russia. The army chief will be visiting Russia next week and the defence minister will follow next month.

The MoD itself had insisted on comparative trials before this turnaround. Now it says that you can't compare a 46-tonne T-90 with a 60-tonne Arjun.

But the men who built the tank in the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment in Chennai believe that's just an excuse to avoid comparative trials which would prove that Arjun is the best tank.

''People have been asking that question, how can you compare a 40 tonne class tank with a 60 tonne class tank, and I think the golden question is that irrespective of the weight and other features, if one is given a choice as to which tank he'd like to ride to battle, which tank would you choose?'' said Major General HM Singh, Additional DG, CVRDE.

This competitiveness is a sign of the Arjun's new confidence. After three decades of public criticism, the Arjun seems to have ironed out its defects.

''Over a period of five years, we have evaluated this tank in the deserts of Rajasthan. We have evaluated over 70,000 km of cumulative run with 15 tanks we have fired over 10,000 rounds,'' said R Jayakumar, Associate Director, CVRDE.

But success came only in 2005 after the Arjun hardened its electronics to work in the desert heat and fixed chronic suspension leakages.

The army then demanded that the tank be able to drive for 20 minutes under six feet of water, and that's been done too.

Now as the Arjun races over these rumble strips, it has logged up notable successes.

In the year 2000, the Indian Kanchan Armour proved itself in trials - a T-72 couldn't penetrate the Arjun even from point blank range.

Last June firing trials noted that the ''accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was proved beyond doubt.''

While the T-90 plans to install an air conditioner to keep its electronics working, the Arjun's electronics now work at up to 60 degrees.

(FOR CHROM):

The MoD admitted this year to the Parliament's Committee on Defence that the ''Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks.''


And that that ''MBT Arjun is specifically configured for Indian Army requirements, and the T-90 does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun.''

But the Arjun's makers don't just want acceptance and a token order of 124 tanks.

They want the Arjun to be the backbone of India's 3500 tank fleet, and the comparative trials, they say, will prove the Arjun deserves that.

The MoD is backpedaling. It says the army could accept another 124 tanks of the improved Arjun and perhaps many more, if the army likes the tank.

''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production.

The Army's opposition to the Arjun tank is partly the fault of the Arjun team. It took three decades to develop the tank and the generals lost faith in the project.

And today, with the Arjun ready to prove its worth the army seems unwilling to listen.

The basic thing is that the T-90 lobby has its fingers deep into the Army procurement pie and the Army has got its clearance, and ego issues between the developers and the Army have ensured that this tank will always be the gate crasher.

 

[Archer]

well the parts that are imported for the arjun project are not quite produced in India, they are imported from Russia and assembled here in India.

There are no Russian components in the Arjun. The parts imported are from Germany and France.

 

[eckherl]

Thank you for your response:

Question I have though is what actually siezed up, was it a electrical issue or a hydrualic one.