Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[SABRE]

SABRE you must provide a link for that details which you have posted as far as i remember the price of F-16 is 25 million $ as shown in combat air craft prices so how can you say F 16s will cost 30-40 million $ .
and as far as those 3 billion dollars are concerned they will be given in different ways like some in combat air crafts some in guns...etc i dont remember exectly not in a good big grant of F-16s

There is no link....the source here is the US Counslate in Karachi & US embassy in Islamabad & you can say "me". It was confirmed by GEO TV as well right after I posted them here (infact when i pressed the submit reply, it came out on geo tv).

 

[SABRE]

LATEST INFO;

It has now been confirmed that all PAF F-16 Block 15 A/B will get MLU upgrade. 7 PAF F-16s which were grounded & have broken off will be taken back to USA for re-building & fixing.

 

[A Khan]

Sabre: any idea what level of MLU? cause if its Block 50/52, then most likely they new ones will also be same block. and about the 7 u mentioned, are the among the 40 we originally bought, or among the 32 that are currently operationel? i wanna know if we are going to get back to our original strength of 40 + new ones, or if its 32 + new ones.

 

[SABRE]

Sabre: any idea what level of MLU? cause if its Block 50/52, then most likely they new ones will also be same block. and about the 7 u mentioned, are the among the 40 we originally bought, or among the 32 that are currently operationel? i wanna know if we are going to get back to our original strength of 40 + new ones, or if its 32 + new ones.

MLU Package will be discussed with LH-M deligation when they come here. Hence it is not known as yet.
The 7 r the ones which have not seen the skies for along time. They r not amongst 32 F-16s which are opperating right. The 7 broken one will go to USA for upgrading while the 32 are mostly going to be upgraded here in Pakista.

I think with the MLU the all 39(40th was lost in a friendly fire over Afghanistan) F-16s will become equalent to Block 52+ ... All upgradeds will be done by 2006.

 

[webmaster]

Guys, stay on the topic:

Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Awacs are different type of platform and needs to be discussed in different thread!

 

[Salman78]

Re: US approves F-16 sale to Pakistan

Anyone knows the actual price for F-16 Block 60 or a close idea ?

 

[SABRE]

Re: US approves F-16 sale to Pakistan

I would say $30 to $40 million. It can be between them or even above $40 million per unit, depending on the avionics.

Anyways right now concentrate on Block 52 C/D as they will arrive first. Block 60 are in future. Actualy dnt go the blocks mentioned above either by me or any one else. Block would be confirmed when LH-M arrives here in Pakistan.

 

[A Khan]

Re: US approves F-16 sale to Pakistan

Pakistan may go for 4th-generation jets: air chief

By Ali Raza

LAHORE: Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat on Sunday hinted that Pakistan might go for fourth generation fighter aircraft to meet with the country’s defence requirements.

Talking to journalists after the prize distribution ceremony of CAS Veterans Golf Championship at Garrison Golf Club here on Sunday, he said: "Getting fourth generation aircraft depends on our security needs and we might go for these if we feel the need."

Responding to a question that India was trying to get F-18 from the US and whether Pakistan should consider going for fourth generation aircraft, he added: "We have to see our pocket and our needs before getting any aircraft. Prices of aircraft vary from model to model and aircraft to aircraft and getting an aircraft is based on the fact how much and what type of aircraft our security requires.

About a question regarding the deal of getting Gripen, he said no deal could be finalised overnight. Talking about the F-16s, which the US has agreed to give to Pakistan, he said: "We get only an intimation that US President Bush had asked Congress to release Pakistan F-16s. We will get F-16 CNDs (Block 50/52)."

About the number of the aircraft, he said it depended on as much as we needed. "Pakistan is playing an active role with the US in the war against terrorism and that was why the US government has agreed to give us the aircraft," he said, adding that President Musharraf launched hectic efforts for getting these aircraft to improve the security system of the country.

When his attention was drawn towards India’s objecting to delivery of these aircraft to Pakistan, he said this was a usual response. "However, every country enjoys all rights to get what it deems fit for its security," he said, adding that India should not raise hue and cry over the issue because this is our internal matter.

When asked whether the US would provide Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) missiles with F-16s, he said it was too early to comment that these planes were equipped with the BVR missiles or not. "Till now we have no information about the avionics and weaponry installed in these fighters," he maintained. "At present, manoeuvrability of fighter aircraft does not matter much. What matters is the range of radar system, avionics and weaponry of the aircraft," he said.

Regarding the nuclear capability of the F-16s, he said that was no problem as most of the present-age aircraft are already capable of carrying nuclear weaponry. "We already have this capability."

About compatibility of F-16s with the Swedish Erieye aircraft, which the Pakistan Air Force is also going to get, the air chief said both were not compatible with each other. He, however, said they could be made compatible with each other by making software and "we have capability to do so". The PAF will improvise and make Erieye platforms compatible to F-16 as well as majority of other combat platform.

Regarding the impact of F-16s deal on ongoing dialogue process with India, he said that the deal would not hamper the ongoing dialogue. The F-16s deal should not be given a hype in media," he observed. "This was our right to get any kind of aircraft to strengthen our security. The Pakistan Air Force knows how to fight to defend the country and is ready to shed every drop of its blood for homeland," he concluded. Earlier, the air chief distributed trophies among the winners of the CAS Veterans Golf Championship 2005.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/

I know people might feel that Jang isnt the most reliable source, but this is what the ACM said. Sounds very interesting, We are still looking for a ¤th gen fighter and Gripen hasnt been ruled out. although i still believe that J-10 is going to be the 4 th gen fighter, primarily because of the price tag. the Erieye part, sounds like they are coming also.

and about the F-16s, they are also waiting for more info from the US. well, just have to wait till the Lockheed-Martin delegations comes

 

[fieldmarshal]

US team due shortly to
work out F-16s sale: Crocker​

​

link http://jang.com.pk/thenews/​

By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
​

ISLAMABAD: US Ambassador to Pakistan Ryan Crocker has said a team of US experts would visit Islamabad shortly to work out details of the sale of multi-role F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

In an interview with The News, the envoy said no ceiling for the supply of the planes has been fixed and Pakistan is free to decide on any number according to its requirements. The ambassador said the package of $3 billion assistance announced by President George W Bush in 2003 could be used for purchase of the planes.

"President Bush has granted special permission for this purpose," he added. The mode of the payment, avionics and other systems to be fitted in the planes would also be determined after discussion by experts of the two countries. "Since the planes are to be manufactured afresh, I cannot give a timeframe for the start of supply," he said in response to a question.

Pakistan will also get weapons for its Army and Navy, including choppers, C-130 and other planes. Crocker said Pakistan and the United States are enjoying best political relations. "Washington has throughout been eulogising the role Pakistan and President Gen Pervez Musharraf are playing for elimination of terrorism and extremism in the region.

For this reason the United States wishes to see the country and its people prosper and strengthen." Responding to another query, the US envoy said presidents of the two countries frequently keep in touch with each other by telephone.

"I have no information about a recent contact between the two after or immediately before the call of President Bush to the Indian prime minister on the question of supply of F-16s to Pakistan," he added.

 

[webmaster]

Fieldmarshal, please check before you post an article to see if its already published or not.

You seemed to have ignored this post:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=39614&postcount=4

If you continue to ignore and if we have to remind you of this again, you will be reminded with a ban notice for a month. So becareful.

Enjoy!

 

[adsH]

points to note, Eyrie is the chosen AEW&C platform that would be Adapted into the force structure. the F-16 Block 52+ C&D have been chosen by PAF. and they maintain the option of going further and purchasing the Fourth Gen fighter this can be the Block 60, there is no emphasis on the gripens. Gripens would be a very dissimilar weapon system in the loop, the CAS is very cautious about Dissimilar weapon system as he's trying to keep Costs low(as hinted in the Article). the Block 60 would be more then enough for PAF. Look!! most here wan't PAF to go for the Grippens because they are cautious About US Restricting Supplies incase of a diplomatic fallout, if there is a big enough diplomatic Fallout between the two. the After shocks would not be restricted, only to the Pak-us Relations it would also affect the Swedish and other various euro Pak relations. so it doesn't matter where you get the AC from they will always come with a risk. Europ has a shorter Fuze when it comes to dealing with "Not Completely democratic Nation with a brilliant Human Rights record".

 

[rafale_2k5]

I dare say if n only if PAF, is offered block 60s it would definitely go 4 block 60s which r far superior to anything gripens can offer , but its a question whether US agrees to the proposal n judging by reports i dont see why PAF should look 4 any other aircraft except J-10 since PAF believes in a hi lo mix inventory, block52s/60 in the higher end segment n J-10 to form part of the medium tier segment n if all goes as planned i dont see PAF goin 4 huge numbers of JF-17 whch as the rumours suggest has already been cut short to 70 aircrafts n u nevr know emhasis of JF-17 is shifted to a purely Close Support aircraft like the Jags/ Mig-27s in Indian service , whereas J-10 could form the back bone of interceptors n F-16block 52/ 60s could be the real hgh end segment n form the mainstay of strikers since we should remember block 60 is more tuned as a striker than a purely air to air role although it can still fill the role with CFTs removed which happen to retard some of it manuveability features!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rafale_2k5]

As far as sanctions r concerned they can be applied anytime , it doesnt matter which is the concerned country, even in case of gripens also sanctions can be applied , as the case may be with others !!!!!!!!!!! since we do not produce technoogy shall always remain at the mercy of those who do thats why im a stong advocate of JF-17 , itmay not be all wat its desired to be but with the know how gained , priogressive modifications can be sought , thats why i believe both LCA n JF-17 can play a very strong role in Sout Asian scenario!!!!!!! if India n Pakistan can somehow sort out their differences they can reach a point where joint defence collaboration can be achievd n the region has the capacity to develop into a major power block much stronger than any EU or super power n can play a very balancng / moderating influence in world politics but alas its a very imperfect world , n requires visionaries who could see the larger picture rather than hawks , at present the hawks prevail!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[mysterious]

I dont know why some of you just dont get it! Block 60 is an exclusive batch of F-16s custom built ONLY for the UAE!!! All the other users (US and Europeans) use Block 52 as the latest batch of F-16s. Like Lockheed has offered India a custom built batch of F-16s for the IAF which could be termed the Block 70, Pakistan should go for something like that. A custom built batch of ACs suited for PAF needs and requirements. If that doesn't go through, PAF would just end up with Block 52 ACs which is alright I guess.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Pakistan likely to purchase 70 F-16s


By Arshad Sharif
link http://www.dawn.com/2005/03/28/nat2.htm

ISLAMABAD, March 27: The Pakistan Air Force is likely to purchase about 70 F-16s of the latest Block 50/52 C and D type models costing about $2.4 to 2.8 billion, official sources said.

Though the officials did not disclose the exact number of F-16s, each costing $35-40 million, being planned to be purchased, unofficial estimates based on previous fleet requirements of the PAF put the figure close to 70 planes.

"No number can be given at this stage. It will be decided in due course of time," said a senior official while quoting Air Chief Kaleem Saadat. When asked about media reports that Pakistan was looking forward to delivery of some two dozen F-16s, an official said: "Requirement is more than that."

According to the officials, exact timeframe for the delivery could not be given at present as negotiations for the modalities were to be worked out. The teams from Lockheed Martin, the manufacturers of the F-16s, would visit Pakistan and reciprocal visits would be made by the top officials to US to work out modalities and finer details of the deal. Pakistan would have to raise the money required for the purchase of the latest F-16s, the official said.

Part of the total cost is likely to be met from the five- year, $3 billion US assistance for Pakistan committed by Washington in 2003, half of which is for military purchases. The final delivery process could take a minimum of two years after the made-to-demand manufacturing process starts.

Pakistan is looking forward to F-16 Block 50/52 C and D type with a capability to carry nuclear weapons, including single seaters and dual seaters, advanced avionics and weapons upgrades. In short, the latest version, an official said.

According to the US media, Washington's decision to sell F-16s had come just in time for Lockheed Martin which was contemplating taking action to close the production line that employs about 5,000 workers, in case new orders for the jet did not come by this fall.

Lockheed is also reportedly looking forward to sell about 100 F-16s to India along with transfer of technology. "This could place Pakistan in a position of buying spares for its new jets from India because Lockheed might close down the production line of this particular make to focus on newer models," said an arms market watcher. But he also said two countries that have F-16s have never fought a war.

During the 1980s, the PAF received 40 F-16s under the deal named as "Peace Gate (PG)". Deliveries under Peace Gate-I included six F-16s comprising two F-16As (Serial No. 82701-02) and four F-16Bs (Serial No. 82601-04) and follow-up support of $156 million.

Deliveries under Peace Gate-II included 34 F-16's of both F-16A and F-16B models and a follow-up support of $1 billion. The F-16s which never made to Pakistan included some 71 negotiated as part of PG-III and PG-IV deals.

Of the total 71 under the negotiated PG-III and PG-IV, the first ten under the PG-IV were delivered while the delivery of other 60 F-16s was stopped by the US during the 1990s after Pakistan had paid for them. Moreover, Pakistan had to pay for the storage of the falcon birds at the US Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Centre.

The sources said that the PAF initiated the programme for upgrading the F-16s at Aeronautical Complex Kamra after the US refused to supply the spares in the wake of Pressler Amendment and the post nuclear sanctions of 1998.

When asked if the funds already paid up for the F-16s would be used for the new deal, an official said that the previous payment was a separate issue and would be dealt separately.

If delivered after a minimum period of two years, the F-16 Block50/52 models would be an addition in the nuclear capable aircraft fleet of PAF which was already looking forward to delivery of JF-17 thunder aircraft, a joint Pakistan-China venture.

 

[P.A.F]

US experts due shortly to work out F-16s sale: Ryan
​

ISLAMABAD: US Ambassador to Pakistan Ryan Crocker has said a team of US experts would visit Islamabad shortly to work out details of the sale of multi-role F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

In an interview with The News, the envoy said no ceiling for the supply of the planes has been fixed and Pakistan is free to decide on any number according to its requirements. The ambassador said the package of $3 billion assistance announced by President George W Bush in 2003 could be used for purchase of the planes.

"President Bush has granted special permission for this purpose," he added. The mode of the payment, avionics and other systems to be fitted in the planes would also be determined after discussion by experts of the two countries. "Since the planes are to be manufactured afresh, I cannot give a timeframe for the start of supply," he said in response to a question.

Pakistan will also get weapons for its Army and Navy, including choppers, C-130 and other planes. Crocker said Pakistan and the United States are enjoying best political relations. "Washington has throughout been eulogising the role Pakistan and President Gen Pervez Musharraf are playing for elimination of terrorism and extremism in the region.

For this reason the United States wishes to see the country and its people prosper and strengthen." Responding to another query, the US envoy said presidents of the two countries frequently keep in touch with each other by telephone.

"I have no information about a recent contact between the two after or immediately before the call of President Bush to the Indian prime minister on the question of supply of F-16s to Pakistan," he added.


http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en77513&F_catID=&f_type=source

 

[Desert Tiger]

"This could place Pakistan in a position of buying spares for its new jets from India because Lockheed might close down the production line of this particular make to focus on newer models,"

Not really, we can always buy spare-parts (legally) from U.S stocks, Turkish stocks, etc, etc. I don't think there's a significant difference between Block-30/40/50, just the avionics and minor physical differences, but most parts should be the same. Also given how many C/D F-16s there are in the USAF's reserves, and I think Turkey partially builds, so not a huge problem.

 

[adsH]

I dare say if n only if PAF, is offered block 60s it would definitely go 4 block 60s which r far superior to anything gripens can offer , but its a question whether US agrees to the proposal n judging by reports i dont see why PAF should look 4 any other aircraft except J-10 since PAF believes in a hi lo mix inventory, block52s/60 in the higher end segment n J-10 to form part of the medium tier segment n if all goes as planned i dont see PAF goin 4 huge numbers of JF-17 whch as the rumours suggest has already been cut short to 70 aircrafts n u nevr know emhasis of JF-17 is shifted to a purely Close Support aircraft like the Jags/ Mig-27s in Indian service , whereas J-10 could form the back bone of interceptors n F-16block 52/ 60s could be the real hgh end segment n form the mainstay of strikers since we should remember block 60 is more tuned as a striker than a purely air to air role although it can still fill the role with CFTs removed which happen to retard some of it manuveability features!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PAF has been cleared for F-16 its up to PAF to procure whatever they need its not a government driven sale its more like the relation the Saudi's have with Boeing. they Approach the Firm directly. the MNNA is working out for PAF. they can also Expect Cue Jumps since they are MNNA.
Cost is the Biggest Problem PAF needs Numbers and they need them cheaper, Unless the US is willing to offer subsidized Block 60 it would be hard for them to procure them the Block 60 seems to be a new-generation its termed F-16 E/F a version on sale, specifically tailored to requirements of UAE. The Block 50 offers the Capability PAF needs and it suites there Force structure. PAF seems to be a doctrine driven Force so it will only Purchase a fighter that meets its requirements.

 

[adsH]

Pak plans to buy 70 latest F-16s

Monday, 28 March , 2005, 13:47

Islamabad: Pakistan has hinted that it plans to buy from the US about 70 F-16s of the latest variety costing $3 bn.

A team of American defence experts is expected to be in Islamabad shortly to discuss the modalities of the sale of the fighter aircraft. The country will be eyeing for the latest Block 50/52 C and D type models of the F-16s costing about $2.4 to 2.8 bn, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief Air Marshal Kaleem Sadat said.

Media slams US move to sell F-16s to Pak
US defends sale of F-16s to Pak

Each of the latest F-16s were expected to cost around $35-40 mn. Unofficial estimates based on previous fleet requirements of the PAF put the figure close to 70 planes, daily 'Dawn' quoted PAF officials as saying.

Sadat said Pakistan might go for fourth generation fighter aircraft to meet with the country's defence requirements. "We got only an intimation that US President Bush had asked Congress to release Pakistan F-16s. We will get F-16 C/Ds (Block 50/52) and the new Block 60 E/Fs," he added.

He said the number of the aircraft, 'depended on as much as we needed. Pakistan is playing an active role with the US in the war against terrorism and that was why the US government has agreed to give us the aircraft'.

US Ambassador to Pakistan Ryan Crocker said an American officials team would be in Islamabad shortly to hold talks with Pakistani officials to finalise modalities of the sale of the F-16 aircraft, as President Bush has cleared the legal and administrative hurdles by formally lifting the ban on sale of modern jet fighter.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1335.html

ok this will confuse people, Look at it the Official, Sadat statement seems to refer to Block 60 too.

 

[SABRE]

As I had already mentioned, it is going to be a combinition so that both quality & quantity are achieved. With Block 60s we wont be needing to aquire any other AC, like Gripen, Mirage2000/5/9, Rafale not even Russian Sukhoi 27/30/35/37 (But if offered Pakistan would seriously consider Sukhois) nor MiG-29s.

First batch will offcourse be of Block 52C/D. 39 of F-16A/B will go to USA for MLU but will probably return 40 in numbers. Either PAF will aquire one extra unit to bring the numbe back to 40 or I hope USA & LH-M present us with one . The MLU would be slow I guess. Probably finish in 2007 since we are operating on 32 right now, we just cant open up our front line jets all togather. It would be in batch. 5 to 6 in each batch. But the 1st batch to go would be unfunctionable 7 F-16s. Block 15 A/B will also come to the level of 52C/D . But still remain inferior to them in various departments .

So by 2015 we would be opperating on about 112 F-16s, a combinition of both block 60E/F & Block 52C/D. If new blocks come up than they should be inducted too.

Now there will be F-16s at Sargodah, Malir (karachi), Peshawar & probably at Quetta too till Gwadr base is ready.