Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?


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AK_PAK

New Member
Re: US approves F-16 sale to Pakistan

WebMaster said:
On the other hand, US congress will still have to approve the sale before it is formalised.
The Republicans have the majority, and it will be approved.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: US approves F-16 sale to Pakistan

Congress to be informed about F-16 Sale to Pakistan today.
At the moment only 24 would be made available & 80 will later be produced on contract. All F-16s r expected to be of Block 60 C/D (Sheikh Rashied said all F-16s will be of latest versions) with advance weapon systems which may include AIM-120 AMRAAMs & JDAMs.
 

Elite Brain

New Member
Bush announces F-16 sale to Key Ally Pakistan.

WASHINGTON (AFP) Mar 25, 2005
The United States announced plans Friday to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan despite objections from Islamabad's nuclear-rival India.

The sale was part of a new strategic approach to the troubled subcontinent that was presented to both countries by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on her visit there earlier this month, a senior US official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

President George W. Bush on Friday telephoned Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to inform him of the decision, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

Singh expressed to Bush his "great disappointment," saying it could have "negative consequences" for India's security, according to the Indian leader's spokesman, Sanjaya Baru.

But the US official said "we don't see any impact on the relevant military balances in the region."

The sale was to make Pakistan more secure, the official said. "It's in the interest of India, Pakistan and the United States that Pakistan feels secure."

Pakistan, which has become a major ally of the United States in its war on terror after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, said it would buy the latest version of the F-16.

"We welcome this good gesture and it shows good friendship between Pakistan and the United States," Information Minister Sheikh Rashid told AFP in Islamabad.

The US official said although the number of F-16's offered to Pakistan would be "relatively small, there is no set limit on what the United States is going to be willing to sell."

US officials said Congress was notified Friday of the sale to Pakistan, which already has such combat aircraft.

Islamabad reportedly wants to buy up to 25 additional units.

It has been seeking additional multi-role fighter jets since 1990 when a deal for 40 such planes fell through because of US concerns over the country's nuclear programme.

But relations between the United States and Pakistan warmed up after Islamabad helped the Americans topple the hardline Taliban regime in Afghanistan in 2001.

Bush explained to Singh Friday "his decision to move forward on the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, as well as responding to India's request for information on the provision of multi-role combat aircraft for India," Perino said.

It is believed India was eyeing a variety of aircraft, including Lockheed Martin's F-16s, France's Dassault Aviation's Mirage jet fighters, Swedish-made Gripen fighters and the Russian MiG range, made by Mikoyan-Gurevich.

"Pakistan has been a valuable ally in the war against terrorism, as has India, and I strongly support US arms sales that contribute to that effort," Democratic Representative Tom Lantos said. "If the reports are correct, I would support the concurrent sale of F-16 aircraft to both countries, which should not undermine stability in the region."

India says however that arming Pakistan with the sophisticated warplanes would upset the military balance in the region and cast a shadow over the slow dialogue process under way between the nuclear-armed neighbours.

Relations between the South Asian rivals have warmed since the peace process was launched in January last year, with both sides making a series of matching moves to boost communication links and people-to-people contacts.

The most visible sign of improvement in the relationship is their agreement last month to restart a bus service linking the two zones of Kashmir that each country occupies.

The thorny issue of Indian occupied Kashmir caused two of the three wars between India and Pakistan and brought them close to a fourth war in 2002.







This is a positive development indeed!!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Bush announces F-16 sale to Key Ally Pakistan.

Elite Brain said:
WASHINGTON (AFP) Mar 25, 2005
The United States announced plans Friday to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan despite objections from Islamabad's nuclear-rival India. .........

This is a positive development indeed!!
Elite, please provide the URL for this item. IT is part of the forum posting rules policy. IF you can't then you risk losing the post.

(This post has also been merged with existing topic leader.)
 
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Desert Tiger

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Now this is interesting, a large number of F-16E/F Block-60s. Well I hope we can get the aircraft, unlike before, we have other options, and we have more funds available. We should keep J-10 in the pipeline, as well as more nukes, just incase the U.S tries to slap sanctions on us.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Desert Tiger said:
Now this is interesting, a large number of F-16E/F Block-60s. Well I hope we can get the aircraft, unlike before, we have other options, and we have more funds available. We should keep J-10 in the pipeline, as well as more nukes, just incase the U.S tries to slap sanctions on us.
F-16E/F ???? Desert Tiger its F-16 not F-18 or F-15. Its C/D of Block 60. Could also be block 50 but most probably & the indications given by the ministry of information its going to be block 60c/d...now we will fly with UAE.
All we need is to finaly ok the AWACs deal since the uncetainity is over now.
 

A Khan

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

arent the F-16 block 60s also known as F-16 E/Fs`? not sure but i think i have read it somewhere...

now a few question, the F-16s we currently have i presume cant be upgraded to block 60 level, so will they be upgraded to block 52 level or 52+, whats most likely? and will the MLU take place in the US or in Pakistan?

Sabre: from now on the only PAF related news i'm anxious to hear is the on about the ERIEYE! hope we sign it soon, and the planes land in pakistan in 2007!... wow how great a year would that be for the PAF it that happens. Erieye, JF-17 and F-16s in the same year :D
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
UR right web master i just woke up.:coffee

But really good news for the PAF, finally somthing to simle about. :D

I think after hearing the reporter on cnn, this deal also has a eco significance for the bush admin as with out this deal the production line in taxas, bushs home state will close down, meaning a loss of jobs for a lot of ppl, now with the talk of 200 ac this line will continue to operate for some time. So i dont forsee a prob in it being passed by congress, after a little hue n cry.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
we kept mirage-3 over 40 years same would be done with F-16s, hence a mass number is required. Secondly remember we still havent made a move on 4th Generation AC hence we need quantity of this quality AC to combat IAF Su-30 or atleast keep the balance at par.
All we have to see the what is included in the F-16 package e.g: Avionics & advance weapon system like AIM-120 AMRAAM & JDAM.

F-16s radars r inferior to Su-30s. If that can be replaced by some thing better it will be major threat to Su-30.

What abt IAF now. Only few media sources have said that F-16s have been offered to India as well while BBC only confirms Pakistan.
I say if IAF buys F-16s from USA than Russia should not be hasitent in selling its Suhoi(Su)-27/30/35/37 to Pakistan.
But India has already postponed its purchase of 126 ACs to make an economy for scorpien SubMarines. This means no new jets for a long time. By the time they come back to AC purchase hopefuly PAF will have over 80+ F-16s than there would be no point in purchasing them.
 

doggychow14

New Member
SABRE said:
What abt IAF now. Only few media sources have said that F-16s have been offered to India as well while BBC only confirms Pakistan.
I say if IAF buys F-16s from USA than Russia should not be hasitent in selling its Suhoi(Su)-27/30/35/37 to Pakistan
India won't buy f-16s as it won't be a good decision logistically and russia would never sell to pakistan.
 
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adsH

New Member
SABRE said:
F-16s radars r inferior to Su-30s. If that can be replaced by some thing better it will be major threat to Su-30.
again its like apples and mangoes but if you must insist the F-16 would be used to Ariel defense so if PAF has a decent AEW&C and a decent ground Radar Coverage, then it would be able to bridge the Data-Link providing a an Impressive Datlink Capability (you can get one of those F-16 to not use its Radar sensor and Behave it has been using its radar while receiving situational awareness in Gods Eye View on the Avionics display its impressive when you have a complete System.), Datalinks is my speciality, I can talk onn and on about them for hours. BUt if the PAF F-16 are E/f then you don't need to upgrade anything on them its already one of the most modern Fighters around. It definitely beats the Rafael AC.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: US approves F-16 sale to Pakistan

WebMaster said:
On the other hand, US congress will still have to approve the sale before it is formalised.
Webi I don't think any of the CongressMen (Bar Indian Loby) (With all do respect) don't have the Cahoona's to Stand against the presidents Publicly announced decision republicans own the House and to a certain extent this deal might mean the Bush's HOme town won't loose any more Jobs.
 

Desert Tiger

New Member
Re: US approves F-16 sale to Pakistan

Desert Falcon is also known as F-16E/F, however I doubt thats the case. I have a deep feeling that our spokesmen may have some minor communication problems. "latest" sounds like F-16E/F, but as compared to PAF F-16s, even the F-16C/D Block-50 is quite new and late.
 

aaaditya

New Member
atleast india has been offered pac2,civilian nuclear cooperation,joint space cooperation(both lockheed martin and boeing have been permitted to bid for india mrca contest),things certainly look good for both the neighbours(by the way india has been offered the production of the defence systems ,what about pakistan):coffee
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Who cares what India's been offered, Aaaditya? This is a Pak thread, not a comparison of what US is offering to whom.

Anyway this recent offer was expected for quite a while now. The Block and Numbers are encouraging for Pak. Any ideas on how many the PAF would procure? And is the US confident this time that tech swapping with China won't take place? They must be, which is why they've offered it in the first place.

More than the India element, China's reaction will be interesting. Remember Pakistan has been offered the F-16's, but if the PAF does indeed induct them in large numbers; then China will lose a principle buyer of the J-10.

Pak will eventually have to decide betw China and the United States. China is more *cliche warning* reliable, dependable and an "all weather ally". Whereas, putting it bluntly, US has waaay better stuff to offer than China and is now yeilding to Pak's requirements.

Tempting time to be a Pak policy planner, yum yum
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
To Srirangan;
Sri there is an un written memo of understanding between Pakistan & China. Both have agreed not to intervien in some of the each others foregin & defence affairs. We bought F-16s from USA when were biggest buyers of Chinese F-6 & started to buy F-7s. We had no negative reactions from Chinese. As far as J-10 is concerened it could still be bought regardless of F-16s. Besides that China likes Pakistan being its door to the west, so it does not mind Pakistan's relations with USA & Europe.
BTW tech swapping never took place. Never the Chinese said any thing abt it, Pakistan has denied it & USA never blamed Pakistan on such a move. When three concerned nations have not mentioned any swapping than it dint take place. It was just probably media's blah blah & probably from India (dnt mind).

Latest Info;
President has informed the Congress about F-16 sell to Pakistan which is approaved. Many Congress were aware of the move even before President informed the Pakistan & India. No senetar or Congressmen has went against the move (Even democrate Senetors are believed not to pose threat to the deal since John Kerry after loosing the elections has decided to make the party's reputation better in front of Pakistan, he decided to visit Pakistan early this year but postponed the visit).

The first Batch Pakistan is going to buy includes 24 F-16s C/D of Block 52+...for Block 60 Pakistan has to sign a contract for 80 new aircrafts.

Meanwhile the most senior defence journalist & an indirect advisor of Pakistani government over defence issues, Tal'at Masood, has said that F-16s will increase Pakistan AirForces strength. It would be capable of battling most of the IAF AirCrafts (MiG-29, Mirage-2000, MiG-21, Jagauars & other MiGs). But PAF should also consider other fighters from other countries. He said France has been willing to sell its Mirage2000-9 & Rafale to Pakistan & it is high time that these AirCrafts be considered. Also other countries like Sweden will no longer feel hesitent on selling its fighters to Pakistan after USA's decision.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Sri there is an un written memo of understanding between Pakistan & China. Both have agreed not to intervien in some of the each others foregin & defence affairs. We bought F-16s from USA when were biggest buyers of Chinese F-6 & started to buy F-7s. We had no negative reactions from Chinese.

I wish world diplomacy was that simple. I know some Chinese who are suspicious of US-Pak ties, and the Americans definitely are (and have been) worrie dabout the Sino-Pak ties. I'm not saying the scene is going to immediately explode. Infact I can claim it won't. But slowly and steadily as and when US and China become more confrontational, Pak will become a pivot for either side.

As far as J-10 is concerened it could still be bought regardless of F-16s.

What would be the advantage of procuring less advanced J-10's when you have the latest F-16's? If PAF procures the F-16's in any significant quantity, it will more or less shut the door for the J10's, Grippen's and Mirage 2K's. This is kind of stating the obvious.

BTW tech swapping never took place. Never the Chinese said any thing abt it, Pakistan has denied it & USA never blamed Pakistan on such a move. When three concerned nations have not mentioned any swapping than it dint take place. It was just probably media's blah blah & probably from India (dnt mind).

Hmm, even in the international security circles the leasing of F-16's and some 'discovered' cruise missiles was generally a known quantity. This is the kind of stuff that isn't published in your daily newspapers (Indian or otherwise) but still is considered public domain. Anyway no use arguing if it happened or not.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
SABRE said:
BTW tech swapping never took place. Never the Chinese said any thing abt it, Pakistan has denied it & USA never blamed Pakistan on such a move. When three concerned nations have not mentioned any swapping than it dint take place. It was just probably media's blah blah & probably from India (dnt mind).
I'd have to disagree with you here Sabre. It is certainly highly considered by various people from different countries within the Intel community that China had access to an F-16.

btw, Intel people don't pay attention to public mass media, public forums or unsubstantiated comments - they might harvest incidental info from such sources, but they are never regarded as primary sources. All intel is cross validated as well - another words it needs to be independantly verified from other sources to gain legitimacy.

The nature of intel gathering is that it covers a whole cohort of sources ranging from satellites to electronic emissions gathering to various other methods that you won't ever see discussed in the public domain.

The Lavi, F2 and J7-10 are considered F-16 Legacy platforms.
 

AK_PAK

New Member
Interesting article... Indians point of view....

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050325-052429-2396r.htm
Outside View: Bush's F-16 folly


By Kaushik Kapisthalam
Outside View Commentator


ATLANTA, GA, Mar. 25 (UPI) -- The U.S. government announced Friday its decision sell nuclear-capable Lockheed-Martin F-16 C/D strike fighter aircrafts to Pakistan. While the deal still needs congressional approval, given that the Republicans control both houses of Congress, the sale is unlikely to face any roadblock.

To most South Asia observers, this decision was no surprise. Getting advanced F-16s and a package to upgrade its existing old F-16 fleet has always been on the Pakistani wish list since its president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, joined the U.S.-led coalition against terrorism in the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. With intense media speculation in the preceding weeks, most news watchers felt a sense of inevitability about the F-16 sale.

Although the Bush maintains the sale of F-16s to Pakistan will not affect the regional balance, most experts disagree. Some Pakistani and Western analyses point to India's growing technological edge in the weapons arena. Systems such as the Israeli Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System and the Russian-built Sukhoi-30MKI multirole aircrafts are given as examples of India's growing technology advantage.

Once again, the analyses that highlight India's perceived technological edge overlook some critical factors. Recent trends indicate Pakistan is rapidly closing the airpower technology gap. The FC-1 fighter, which Pakistan is jointly developing with China, is close to production stage and will go far to neutralize the Indian threat. The fighter program gives Pakistan some assets unavailable to date, including Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles, mid-air refueling and better radars. Pakistani air force leaders have publicly said they believe the FC-1 is an asset that is superior to anything on India's inventory except perhaps the Su-30.

The United States has already promised an upgrade package for the Pakistan air force's existing F-16 fleet. Over the next few years, Pakistan will be armed with upgraded F-16s and a large number of advanced FC-1 fighters - a situation few can argue is indicative of a major imbalance with respect to India. Clearly the new F-16s are nothing more than gravy for Pakistan. Pakistani defense analysts have noted the country is almost certain not to rely on the F-16s for its next generation strike aircraft needs and is looking to procure advanced "4th Generation" aircrafts from France or Sweden. Given that the F-16s are likely to be paid for by the U.S. taxpayer, they are unlikely to affect Pakistan's other defense procurements.
Read the rest here... http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050325-052429-2396r.htm
 
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