Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[SABRE]

What would be the advantage of procuring less advanced J-10's when you have the latest F-16's? If PAF procures the F-16's in any significant quantity, it will more or less shut the door for the J10's, Grippen's and Mirage 2K's. This is kind of stating the obvious.

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True..quite true..I wont counter it in a negative way. If u have better technology why buy the inferior one. I dont knw why i said it, anyways all i ment was that J-10 can be purchased even if F-16s r bought. I wasnt saying that they would be. Meaning the doors are open.

I wish world diplomacy was that simple. I know some Chinese who are suspicious of US-Pak ties, and the Americans definitely are (and have been) worrie dabout the Sino-Pak ties. I'm not saying the scene is going to immediately explode. Infact I can claim it won't. But slowly and steadily as and when US and China become more confrontational, Pak will become a pivot for either side.

The answer to ur question has been answered by the chinese them selves. President of China had a chat with President Musharaf today. He said we r aware of this & it would not effect our friendship. Our friendship is a strong bond & it can not be broken with such matters. (This is what i ment by an un-writen memo)..In return as always Pakistan promissed full support over Tiwan issue.

 

[corsair7772]

True..quite true..I wont counter it in a negative way. If u have better technology why buy the inferior one. I dont knw why i said it, anyways all i ment was that J-10 can be purchased even if F-16s r bought. I wasnt saying that they would be. Meaning the doors are open.

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The answer to ur question has been answered by the chinese them selves. President of China had a chat with President Musharaf today. He said we r aware of this & it would not effect our friendship. Our friendship is a strong bond & it can not be broken with such matters. (This is what i ment by an un-writen memo)..In return as always Pakistan promissed full support over Tiwan issue.

Regarding the F-16s, there probably going to be the C/D versions and only 24 too. Thats no good considering what theyll be facing. By 2010, PAF will have exactly 50 F-16s(26A/B, 24 C/D). Purchasing the J-10 thus becomes feasible as it will probably become available by 2008 and become operational in larger numbers b y atleast a good 3 or 4 years later, thus necessating a stop gap other then the JF-17 which would itself need time to enlarge its numerical strength.

Since the PAF usually prefers operating 4 types of combat aircraft maximum, J-10s, JF-17s, Mirages and F-16s will fit the inventory nicely.

Also, if its F-16Cs that will be sold then whats the point of Pakistan handing a few to china whe they no longer have a technological advantage?

 

[Desert Tiger]

Well given that the Chinese haven't officially confirmed their interests in selling the J-10 to Pakistan, and the PAF is acquiring a large number of JF-17s to replace its other jets, I don't see a huge political problem. If anything, it'd be U.S worried about Pakistan providing some of the F-16's tech to China.

 

[adsH]

I'd have to disagree with you here Sabre. It is certainly highly considered by various people from different countries within the Intel community that China had access to an F-16.

Lets bw Qualitative here GF Have you looked at the Well known Israeli Tech swapping Infact it was an Outright Sale, the Lavi was a Printed COpy of the F-16 which was transfered to the Chinese, I don't hink your Sources are very Neutral when it comes to laying blames on people. Free floating INtelligence appears more like propaganda then qualitative Intelligence. it seams more like a bunch or arm chair Analysts who sit over a cup of coffee and draw lines without an understanding of the whole World Political realm.

 

[AK_PAK]

Regarding the F-16s, there probably going to be the C/D versions and only 24 too. Thats no good considering what theyll be facing. By 2010, PAF will have exactly 50 F-16s(26A/B, 24 C/D). Purchasing the J-10 thus becomes feasible as it will probably become available by 2008 and become operational in larger numbers b y atleast a good 3 or 4 years later, thus necessating a stop gap other then the JF-17 which would itself need time to enlarge its numerical strength.

Since the PAF usually prefers operating 4 types of combat aircraft maximum, J-10s, JF-17s, Mirages and F-16s will fit the inventory nicely.

Also, if its F-16Cs that will be sold then whats the point of Pakistan handing a few to china whe they no longer have a technological advantage?

The number is not confirmed... I'm sure Pakistan wants way more then 24 F-16s and now that the US has opened the gates... I see them supplying more then 24... of course this is speculation.

Do you think Pakistan should go for the Mirages from France?

 

[A Khan]

I read somewhere (cant find the source, but still searching for it) that Mirage 2000. Gripen, Rafale (my favorite), are all out of the competition, only thing left that PAF might buy besides the F-16s sometime in the near future (2010+) is the J-10, again depending on how it performs with the chinese engine, and other modifications.

I personally think the mirages are too expensive compared to the F-16s we are getting... and F-16s with AMRAAM and JDAM? what more can we ask for from uncle Sam

 

[SABRE]

I think someone pointed out earlier (SABRE perhaps, not sure) that Mirage 2000. Gripen, Rafale , are all out of the competition, only thing left that PAF might buy besides the F-16s sometime in the near future (2010+) is the J-10, again depending on how it performs with the chinese engine, and other modifications.

I personally think the mirages are too expensive compared to the F-16s we are getting... and F-16s with AMRAAM and JDAM? what more can we ask for from uncle Sam

I dnt remember saying that mirage2k series, gripens or Rafales r out of question. Infact I had earlier reported what senior defence analyst Talat Masood had said. He said that Pakistan should also consider other ACs. France has been willing to sell Mirage2000-9 & Rafales to Pakistan. They should be considered. With this move by USA other western nations should not be hesitent in selling Pakistan their ACs.

I certainly did not say that J-10 is the only AC available to Pakistan besides F-16s. I said that J-10 could still be bought regardless of F-16 purchase (by which I ment that J-10 will always be available to Pakistan ... not that they r going to buy it for sure right now).

To tell u seriously Mirage2000-9 & Rafale are best choices.

 

[P.A.F]

I Agree!!!!:kar

 

[SABRE]

LATEST INFO​

1. First batch to arrive will consist of C/D varients of (probably) block 52+

2. Per unit cost is going to be about $30 to $40 million.

3. The 1st batch will consist 24 F-16s.

4. These 24 ACs will be adjusted in the $3Billion defence deal with USA.

5. LockHeed-Martin team to arrive soon in Pakistan to talk on the Avionics & Weapon Systems.

LockHeed-Martin & USA promiss advance avionics & weapon system but it is not necessary that PAF F-16s will be equiped with same advance avionics & weapon systems as off USAF's (but still the promiss is to give PAF advance weapons & avioncs system that will give PAF some edge in its defence..AIM-120 AMRAAM& JDAM seem possible to me hope they come other wise its no fun at all).

6. All ACs will be newly built.

Source: US Counslate & Embassy

Meanwhile Pakistan has confirmed that F-16s will be made available on unlimited quantity from here now on. PAF can purchase as many as they want from now & in future.

Pakistan is also to send its engineers to USA to train on over hauling & repairing training on the new ACs.

 

[P.A.F]

i was watching CNN news today and when they showed the F-16 news they showed a E-2C as well

anyway i think we should buy 70 f-16s at least. the rest of the airforce can be kit up with JF-17's , Mirage 2000-9 or rafale.

 

[SABRE]

Believe me LockHeed-Martin will charm Pakistan into buying large number of F-16s. Their charming will definitly include some pretty slick weapon & avionics that would make the enemy think more than twice before battling these ACs. In other words PAF F-16s r going to be inferior to USAF's but pretty good compared to others. They'll try to make Block 60 superior or equalent French Rafale (Block 52+ is already superior to Mirage-2000 & MiG-29) so that our mind is not diverted to other sellers.
LH-M has to do this to have a large number contract, other wise they face a shut down. Other countries are done buying F-16s for the moment (its going to be a long moment). So they wont even like a future ban if it tried to take place. This seems like a secured deal to me. Both LH-M & PAF need this.

lol..finaly not only we need to buy F-16s but also the US/LH-M need to sell them to us.

 

[P.A.F]

which is the good thing about it all. they will HAVE to give us good tech

 

[A Khan]

I saw the cnn news as well and they mentioned the E-2C as the naval patrol aircraft pakistan already had bought from the US, or something like that... (and some people think that only the south asian journalists make such mistakes)

 

[A Khan]

how come everyone ( western and pakistani media) keeps mentioning block 52? i had hoped the new F-16s had been Block 60, same as the UAE...By the way do you guys think this might make pakistan chose the E-2C instead of the Erieye?

 

[SABRE]

the 1st 24 are confirmed C/D block 52+ ... I have herd they are there in LH-M's inventory & just need Avionics & Weapons integration, which will take place after LH-M deligation's meeting with Pakistani officials. So the 1st bacth of 24 ACs is probably going to be here in this year probably by june-july-august.

E-2C could be a good platform since ur using Fighters from same country, but u have already kept Sweden on pending.

 

[gf0012-aust]

By the way do you guys think this might make pakistan chose the E-2C instead of the Erieye?

They're two completely different platforms. The PAF has to make decisions based on requirements - not on "type"

One is a proper autonomous battle management system - the other is not.

 

[corsair7772]

But either way both of them are not going to be easily integrated with PAF aircraft using chinese radars such as the J-10 or J-11 (the JF-17 is using an italian radar).And that is IF we use chinese avionics.

This was why the PAF felt that the Eyeries bythemselves would be no good if they diddnt have Gripens along with them.

 

[kashifshahzad]

LATEST INFO​

1. First batch to arrive will consist of C/D varients of (probably) block 52+

2. Per unit cost is going to be about $30 to $40 million.

3. The 1st batch will consist 24 F-16s.

4. These 24 ACs will be adjusted in the $3Billion defence deal with USA.

5. LockHeed-Martin team to arrive soon in Pakistan to talk on the Avionics & Weapon Systems.

LockHeed-Martin & USA promiss advance avionics & weapon system but it is not necessary that PAF F-16s will be equiped with same advance avionics & weapon systems as off USAF's (but still the promiss is to give PAF advance weapons & avioncs system that will give PAF some edge in its defence..AIM-120 AMRAAM& JDAM seem possible to me hope they come other wise its no fun at all).

6. All ACs will be newly built.

Source: US Counslate & Embassy

Meanwhile Pakistan has confirmed that F-16s will be made available on unlimited quantity from here now on. PAF can purchase as many as they want from now & in future.

Pakistan is also to send its engineers to USA to train on over hauling & repairing training on the new ACs.

SABRE you must provide a link for that details which you have posted as far as i remember the price of F-16 is 25 million $ as shown in combat air craft prices so how can you say F 16s will cost 30-40 million $ .
and as far as those 3 billion dollars are concerned they will be given in different ways like some in combat air crafts some in guns...etc i dont remember exectly not in a good big grant of F-16s

 

[A Khan]

I have previously read that Erieye was considered because of A) the gripens, B) because it performed better in the mountains then the Hawkeye. And about the Gripens i dont know how clue whats gonna happen, but the mountain issue most be a prime concern for PAF, since a lot of our land is covered by mountains. But the price tag as i remember was 1,7 billion for 7 Erieyes, and 1,6 Billion for 8 Hawkeyes. so thats makes the Hawkeye look more Attractive in that sense...

AS Corsair pointed, i couldnt agree more, integration of all PAF aircrafts to either platform is going to be a hard, and thus time consuming...

 

[Aussie Digger]

Although I'm certainly no expert, both Brazil AND Greece have ordered and successfully operate the Erieye AWACS systems and neither of these Countries operate Gripen fighters. Erieye is a NATO compatible system and NATO compatible platforms should have no difficulty working with this system.

I'm certain it won't be too difficult to use non-NATO platforms with the Erieye. The main issues would be the use of datalinks such as Link 11 or Link 16. Voice radio issues I'm sure would already be sorted by the PAF, so I can't really see what other issues would be relevant...