Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[The Watcher]

Good news for all... well maybe not for India or their media. If you want to see "Ass" on fire, this is the time to do it!:

-----------------------------
President Musharraf welcomes F-16 aircraft decision after 15+ years

Mar 28, 2005, 14:11



KARACHI: President General Pervez Musharraf on Monday welcomed American government’s decision to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

Related News Story

“It was our long stand demand which has now been met. The induction of the new F-16 will increase our strategic capability of defensive deterrence,†President Musharraf told state-run Pakistan television in Karachi.

The decision to give fighter planes to Pakistan marks a change in US policy, which blocked the sale of F-16s in 1990 over Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.

To a question about the number of the F-16 to be purchased by Pakistan, the President said “there was no limitation and we will decide the mater according to our requirementsâ€, the PTV reported.

General Musharraf said the F-16 to be given to Pakistan of the latest version of the aircraft that is CND version. (correction: Latest versions are E/F or ENF).)

Many have seen the move as a reward for supporting the US ‘war on terror’. Pakistan has done more in war against terror than any other country and Pakistan government commitment to fight terrorism inside Pakistan and outside is commendable and seen through positive eye through out the world.

Pakistani defence officials say the fighters would help the Pakistani air force maintain an effective deterrence level against any aggression towards Pakistani territory.

India has opposed the move but in an interview published in the Washington Post last week the US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice tried to allay India's concerns that the deal could disturb the region's military balance.

India which is three times the size of Pakistan in all aspects as well as Military has signed deals with Russia for latest 4th and 5th generation fighters and other naval equipment. Soon India will be inducting Phalcon Early warning airborne system in a $3 bln weapons deal signed with Israel.

Many analyst believe, Pakistan's defence acquisitions are in direct response to Indian defence deals and acquistions. Indian government is also looking for suppliers to acquire 126 fighter jets to replace it's aging MiG-21 "flying coffins" fleet, which has been plagued with maintenance issues and high crash rate. It is likely that India will acquire those jets from its long term cold war ally, Russia.

Pakistan struck a deal with the US for F-16 jets in the late 1980s, but Washington blocked the sale in 1990 as a sanction against Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.

The revived sale will form part of a five-year, $3bn assistance programme.

The F-16 is built by Lockheed Martin and is one of the world's most successful fighter aircraft, with about 4,500 in commission globally.

URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_002285.shtml

 

[mysterious]

Why aer you guys all repeatedly posting articles basically containing the same report and stats in them? C'mon guys, throw your own two cents forward now.

 

[mysterious]

F16 sale to Pakistan can hurt peace talks: India
By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: The US decision to sell F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan can affect the composite dialogue process between India and Pakistan, said Indian Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee on Monday. He called the US move “ill-timed and inappropriateâ€.

Meanwhile in Calcutta, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said it was “premature†to discuss whether India would purchase F-16 fighter planes from the United States.

“The US has decided to give F-16s to Pakistan and have also made an offer to India. But we do not know the terms and conditions therefore it is premature for me to discuss them. We will discuss it later with them,†Singh was quoted as saying by Press Trust of India news agency.

Indian concerns are based on four points that they have conveyed to US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. They are: Pakistan does not need F-16s to fight terrorism and should be ‘rewarded’ through other ways; the sale will have an adverse impact in the sub-continent’s security; it will affect bilateral relations between India and Pakistan and finally it will divert attention to arms acquisition.

Indian officials said India was not “taken in†with offers of advanced aircraft (F-18 Hornets) because the Indian Air Force considered the French-made Mirage a more ‘attractive’ option. Sources said there was nothing new about the US offer of F-16s to India as the offer had been made two years ago and an air force team had visited the US about the offer.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to issue a tender next month inviting bids for a multi-billion-dollar contract to acquire 200 combat aircraft (126 multi-role and 74 strike and air defence) by 2010. The IAF is the fourth largest air force in the world and a major customer for global defence contractors. Currently Dassault Aviation of France with its Mirage 2000-V-Mk2, Sweden’s SAAB with its JAS 39C Gripen, Russia’s RSK MiG Corporation with its MiG-29M/M2 are vying for the contract which is worth around $5 billion over five years. With the US offering F-16 and F-18 aircraft, Lockheed Martin is also set to bid for the contract.

However, officials said acquiring F-16s would involve huge expenditures in establishing maintenance facilities and assembly lines, which would be difficult for the IAF as it already had over 20 kinds of different machines.

But the French Mirage has been a part of the IAF for the past 15 years and has proved itself during the 1999 Kargil conflict and India already has a maintenance infrastructure for it.

Sources said the Mirage-2000 would not only meet India’s threat perceptions but was also capable of spearheading its strategic aspects and serve as a platform for nuclear weapons.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_29-3-2005_pg7_1

And once again the hue and cry from our friends across the border. They themselves are almost certainly ready to make a decision abt inducting Mirage-2000s to replace Mig-21s which according to the last paragraph would be 'capable of spearheading India's strategic aspects and serve as a platform for nuclear weapons' (and its just not the Mirages, be it Gripens, Mig-29s, F-16s or F-18s even - it wont matter much); and at the same time they find the guts to condemn US decision to sell F-16s to Pakistan. What double-standards. :no Gimme a break!

 

[adsH]

from my perspective, this was a well passed and measured response(No doubt they were informed of the Sale before hand when Ms Rice Made a personal visit). they've gotten rid of the Threats of Diplomatic fallouts and have focussed on there issues explaining there tax payers that they would not benfit with the Induction of F-16/18 type platforms. they have a good thing going with the french why would they want to mess that up!!

And myst they arn't crying out, they are responding to a sale that would effectively strengthen there foe and would potentially reduce there Air-forces Edge over there foes.

 

[mysterious]

Well I would still term that as 'crying out' because F-16 acquisition by Pakistan wouldn't really have a significant impact on balance cuz India is to open bidding for the 200 aircraft that it requires (126 multi-role and 74 strike). This would mean that the effect on conventional balance owing to acquisition of F-16s by Pakistan would almost be nullified, hence, they shouldn't clamor. I would say Pakistan should not delay and step up efforts to place an order for a 4th gen. frontline fighter as well along with the F-16 one to keep the conventional arms balance of airpower in check.

 

[SABRE]

Myst u say 200 ACs like they all will be put against Pakistani border

India shares its borders with Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, Nepal, Meyanmar (Burma), Bhutan & also has a huge cost. 200 or 126 ACs is a need. Even during the war IAF can not shift its ACs from Chinese borders to Pakistani borders nor from any where else unless we have shot down significant numbers of their fighters. Pakistan was afraid of IAF shifting its ACs from other borders to the East & West Pakistani borders thats y we went to bomb their air fields in 1965.

These 200 ACs are no threat to us, specialy now when we are getting the Falcons/vipers.

 

[P.A.F]

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Pakistan+%26+Sub%2DContinent&month=March2005&file=World_News200503299540.xml

Islamabad likely to seek fourth generation jets: Chief of air staff
Web posted at: 3/29/2005 9:54:0
Source ::: Internews


LAHORE: Islamabad may seek fourth generation fighter aircraft to meet with Pakistan’s defence requirements, an official has disclosed.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat announced this after a prize distribution ceremony at the CAS Veterans Golf Championship at Garrison Golf Club.

He said: “Getting fourth generation aircraft depends on our security needs and we might go for these if we feel the need.â€

Responding to a question about India’s attempts to get F-18 from the US and whether Pakistan should consider going for fourth generation aircraft, he said: “We have to see our pocket and our needs before getting any aircraft. Prices of aircraft vary from model to model and aircraft to aircraft and getting an aircraft is based on the fact how much and what type of aircraft our security requires.â€

About a question regarding the deal of getting Gripen, he said no deal could be finalised overnight.

Talking about the F-16s, which the US has agreed to give to Pakistan, he said: “We get only an intimation that US President Bush had asked Congress to release Pakistan F-16s. We will get F-16 CNDs (Block 50/52).â€

Saadat said that the number of aircraft purchased depended on how many were needed.

“Pakistan is playing an active role with the US in the war against terrorism and that was why the US government has agreed to give us the aircraft,†he said, adding that President Musharraf launched hectic efforts for getting these aircraft to improve the security system of the country.

When his attention was drawn towards India’s objecting to delivery of these aircraft to Pakistan, he said this was a usual response.

“However, every country enjoys all rights to get what it deems fit for its security,†he said, adding that India should not raise hue and cry over the issue because this is an internal matter.

When asked whether the US would provide Beyond-Visual-Range missiles with F-16s, he said it was too early to comment that these planes were equipped with the BVR missiles or not.

“Till now we have no information about the avionics and weaponry installed in these fighters,†he maintained. “At present, manoeuvrability of fighter aircraft does not matter much. What matters is the range of radar system, avionics and weaponry of the aircraft,†he said.

Regarding the nuclear capability of the F-16s, he said that was no problem as most of the present-age aircraft are already capable of carrying nuclear weaponry. --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please please please get the gripen or rafale:dance3

 

[fieldmarshal]

i had posted the above yesterday

 

[P.A.F]

sorry never saw it. any way he must opt rafale and gripen. money might be a problem though as hinted in the article.

 

[fieldmarshal]

yarah after acquiring f-16 block 52/60 i dont forsee PAF goin for a rafale as the difference between the two ac will be very small n could be made even small if PAF forces LM to incorporate some later tech into the ac.
N at the moment rafale is not fully developed into a multirole ac n to reach F4 standard there r atleast 5 years to go. that is if the manufacturer gets smoe orders or it might go the way of super mirage 4000.

 

[P.A.F]

As far as i know the Rafale is a fully developed platform in service with the french. they even offer india the platform. anyway pakistan should place an order for customised versions of the jet to suit its needs. and if not that then gripen or mirage 2000-9. and plus rafale is a 4+ generation fighter and its what ACM is looking for. F-16 is less advanced.

 

[SABRE]

Why do u want an other similar multirole platform to F-16s. Gripens are out. We need A2A AC & F-16s can perform that better, even better than F-18. There is not going to be any other AC except perhaps Mirage2000-9 since PAF personal based in UAE find it to be a nice formation.
BTW Many PAF pilots will now be moving back to Pakistan since F-16s are coming & UAE Arab pilots have been well trained by them. They have learned alot & its time that UAE pilots be left on their own. I believe no ME AirForce is now capable of countering UAE not because of their ACs but also what their pilots have learned. I'll easily rank them no.2 in ME after Israel.
In KSA though there is a serious motivational problem. Those who are educated & litrate dont wana join armed forces but want to work on oil fields, offices & many of them are so darn rich they dnt need to work & those who are warrior like dont speek english hence cant join AirForce. Contract with Pakistan army, Navy & AirForce is about to come to an end in 2007 & we will start pulling the troops. Batch 5 of 12 PAF pilots has already withdrawn.

 

[srirangan]

Good news for all... well maybe not for India or their media. If you want to see "Ass" on fire, this is the time to do it!

Yea right. Rofl!

 

[AK_PAK]

The Gripens do not seem to be a good idea anymore. They are very similiar to the F-16s and use American parts, so if sanctions are emplaced again, Pakistan would be in deep trouble. If we do go for the Gripens, it should only be if we get ToT for the parts. The Mirage 2000-9s seem like the most likely option as the Rafales seem to be too expensive.

 

[SABRE]

Mirage2000-9 do seem better choice. PAF pilots have given some good comments on UAE mirage2000-9s. They were on PAF's list & I bet they still are since they suited both UAEAF & PAF (& why wouldnt they since Pakistan was the one to draw out coustomization plans for Mirage2000-9...although those Pakistani AirForce officials are designated, hired & owned by UAEAF...actualy they were leased)....UAE is a co-owner of the coustomization design & co-owner of the Mirage2000-9s special weapon systems. So it is the most safest purchase for PAF. No ban on ACs & certainly no ban on weapon systems.
RAFALEs still remain un tested. They havent even been to a war game so far.

 

[mysterious]

Myst u say 200 ACs like they all will be put against Pakistani border

India shares its borders with Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, Nepal, Meyanmar (Burma), Bhutan & also has a huge cost. 200 or 126 ACs is a need. Even during the war IAF can not shift its ACs from Chinese borders to Pakistani borders nor from any where else unless we have shot down significant numbers of their fighters. Pakistan was afraid of IAF shifting its ACs from other borders to the East & West Pakistani borders thats y we went to bomb their air fields in 1965.

These 200 ACs are no threat to us, specialy now when we are getting the Falcons/vipers.

I was basing my post only in relation to the tech gap in the conventional arms balance that is always the focus of discussion in the subcontinent not abt the entire IAF being put to PAF restraining purposes.

 

[gf0012-aust]

RAFALEs still remain un tested. They havent even been to a war game so far.

Fundamentally they haven't been in a war game, but they have been in a "hot" situation. Their performance envelope is known as they have been fighting in a warzone escorted by F18E/F's. for more than a few months.

So, Rafales have been working with USN and USMC Hornets for some time. The details re performance aren't in the public domain (obviously). Both the US and France won't be discussing those things in a public arena.

 

[SABRE]

Chines FO spokesperson has said that Chinese president has aknowledged US's decision to sell F-16s to Pakistan. He said that the F-16 sale will bring stability in the region. He also added that Indians have built up their AirForce with large number of AirCrafts & therefore must restrain from blocking the sale.

These are the Chinese reactions for which every one was so concerned about specialy our indian friends. As always a possitive attitude towards Pakistan & it foregin policy.

Chinese Foregin spokesperson also said that US will try to sell ACs to India as well & they will offer such technology to charm them that it would be difficult for Indians to resist.

Mean while US embassador to India has said that the sale will actualy bring the balance of arms to the region rather than imbalance.

 

[P.A.F]

Mean while US embassador to India has said that the sale will actualy bring the balance of arms to the region rather than imbalance.

 

[fieldmarshal]

F-16: US team due next month


By Our Reporter link http://www.dawn.com/2005/03/31/top2.htm
ISLAMABAD, March 30: US ambassador Ryan C. Crocker on Wednesday said a technical team would arrive here next month to discuss specifics related to the sale of F-16s to Pakistan.

Mr Croker was talking to newsmen soon after launching the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)-funded Poverty Alleviation Programme. The USDA has given a $25 million grant to the Pakistan Poverty Alleviation Fund for the project.

Mr Crocker did not mention the exact date of arrival of the US technical team and said that it would be here next month to finalize the sale of F-16 jets. He said the $3 billion assistance announced by President George Bush in the summer of 2003 for Pakistan was getting under way this year. Under the programme Pakistan would get $600 million annual tranche equally divided between military and economic.

However, Mr Crocker said the US was also helping Pakistan apart from the main package. That's why, he said, the overall assistance for the current year had touched $700 million.

He said the US wanted strong and "full-scale strategic relationship" with Pakistan. The importance the US attached to its relations with Pakistan could be gauged from the fact that Secretary of State Dr Condoleezza Rice visited the country just two months after taking her new office, the ambassador maintained.

Replying to a question, he said Kashmir "is an old and difficult issue". However, the over-all progress on the issue was encouraging. The launching of the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus service would provide an opportunity to the Kashmiris on both sides to meet, he said.

Earlier, speaking at the ceremony, Mr Croker said the USDA had awarded $25 million to the PPAF because of the good work it had performed during such as short time. The important message of the US assistance was not only economic growth but social development also, he added.