Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?


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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
corsair7772 said:
gf0012-aust said:
SABRE said:
US will have to sell Saudis F-22 in order to stop them from buying Rafale
I can assure you that this is not going to happen. The Saudis will not get access to F-22's. The US has only listed 2 countries that may end up with the F-22 and Saudi Arabia is not one of them. The relationship is also too damaged.

They might consider in the long term enhanced SH's or Eagle Echos, but a Rafale sale to Saudi Arabia wouldn't shift their mindset on Raptors.

I would "bet" 3 years worth of my contracts on that. ;)
How about a stripped down version of the F-22? You know like the F-15s they sold to the Saudis. They were fitted with much older avionics or to be more precise, cut down to something israel wont have much of a problem facing. I think the stripped down version is called the F-15J.

It would be amazing to see the Saudis buy the Rafale. Theyve already planned a Tornadoe Purchase which amounts to what $7 billion? Its that big. I dont know about you but i think the Saudis are smart enough to figure out that 150 F-15s and Tornadoes with E-3s are enough to last till 2015 without further purchases. More sensible to keep on upgrading them.
The Saudis are also smart enough to realise that adding a completely different platform to their combat mix is idiotic. I wouldn't even bet on them getting the JSF - they aren't a build participant - and in addition any new purchasers and entrants need to be approved by the other prime player. I really doubt that that will happen.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Even the stripped Down version would be more to handle for Israelis. I dnt think US will ever sell F-22 to any country except the two on its list.
There is time for JSF to come out, but its been denied to Israelis how do expect Saudis to get them.

Saudis r already following Pakistan's foot steps to buy Swedish AWACs & if Pakistan goes for some thing like Rafale or Gripen, Saudis will mostly follow & it would be loss to American Aviation industry. I think thats y US is considering to sell Pakistan its versions of AWACs, so that Saudis will follow.
what US can offer in exchange to stop Saudis from buying either Gripen or Rafale is to offer them the best F-15s, may be even F-15E along with AWACs.
 

highsea

New Member
srirangan said:
Which are these two countries? UK and?
Australia. I think Japan may make it to the list also, given the situation with NorK. Canada would be allowed, but they don't want or need it. That's about it. No way for Israel, but possibly a reduced JSF down the road a few years (even that is questionable though, due to reciprocity agreements with Egypt and KSA).
 

corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Compared to the F-22 the JSF seems more available on the market. I was goin through the list of countries involved in this project as according to Janes and they seemed like a lot for a new generation fighter. Maybe the US is havin trouble gettin the avionics for such an advanced aircraft on its own o maybe its just tryin to gurantee its export.
 

adsH

New Member
BAE systems is responsible for the Avionics of the JSF i doubt they would have a problem acquiring anything from us.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Selling JSF to Saudis means that US will have to sell it to Israel than, If they sell it to Israel than they ll have to sell it to Egypt. If they sell to egypt they have to sell it to Jordon than. Than Israel will feel one JSF country surrounded by 3 JSF countries. Alot of diplomatic tension will arrise, so I dont think that US will make such a move, for one country, which could cause diplomatic tensions.
Besides that Qatar will also start crying to have a piece & than offcourse UAE gets pissed off they dnt get it. That would be too much of a situation to handle.
If they all get it, what wrong have Pakistanis & Turks done.

This is why its been offered to only 2 countries which have no diplomatic strings attached.

Offering it to Japan will be seen it as arms race in East Asia, Offcourse Tiwan will say "Dady dont u love me?". NKorea will threaten to reopen its Nukes mission & relations with China will get cold. I dnt c Japan reaching any deal on JSF before 2012 or the time when China inducts J-XX to its fleet.
Till than Japan will have to fly its Mitsubishi F-2A & what ever that Tiwanis jet is called (Both similar to F-16s).
 

adsH

New Member
teh F-35 is a Multinational Platform granted the US Lockheed is a Prime contractor but the AC would be pitted for sale to Almost all allies to make sure the Cost per-unit decreases dramatically, the F-22 is the Silver bullet the US would reserve for its own use (bar some exceptionaaly Close allies). its liek the F-16=JSF and the F22 =F-15.

I think PAF should opt for Grippens this is why i think it would meet the requirement of PAF, PAF is going for Eyriee this would suggest they are already implementing the Swedish Defense systems for the C&C and network centric Warfare (theyve had ten years for that), so by including Grippens you would be replicating (to an extent) the effective Swedish Defense doctrine. Obviously the Doctrine would have India specific threat to deal with.

i love the TIDLS Multi-pronged attack approach a single Grip can maintain 4 high-bandwidth two-way com link (500 miles apart with high resistance to Jamming) with four of its field friends and can utilize there Radars to track targets and attack with other Passive Sensing grips. this is amazing you can actually use other sensor sources like the Awacs that can provide its data to the grips and can provide ground radar station data too. this is the reason why i think Grips would be lethal when deployed with the proper infrastructure, and groups of three or four.
i love the part where each one of the grips can choose a radar frequency and collaboratively brun through a Jamm. so the more the better i guess and the part where one grip jams and the other track the other locks and fires lol gone !!!!!
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
adsH said:
I think PAF should opt for Grippens this is why i think it would meet the requirement of PAF, PAF is going for Eyriee this would suggest they are already implementing the Swedish Defense systems for the C&C and network centric Warfare (theyve had ten years for that), so by including Grippens you would be replicating (to an extent) the effective Swedish Defense doctrine. Obviously the Doctrine would have India specific threat to deal with.

i love the TIDLS Multi-pronged attack approach a single Grip can maintain 4 high-bandwidth two-way com link (500 miles apart with high resistance to Jamming) with four of its field friends and can utilize there Radars to track targets and attack with other Passive Sensing grips. this is amazing you can actually use other sensor sources like the Awacs that can provide its data to the grips and can provide ground radar station data too. this is the reason why i think Grips would be lethal when deployed with the proper infrastructure, and groups of three or four.
i love the part where each one of the grips can choose a radar frequency and collaboratively brun through a Jamm. so the more the better i guess and the part where one grip jams and the other track the other locks and fires lol gone !!!!!
Yeah m favoring Gripen purchase too. Anyways; would our US F-16s be effected if we completely turn over our AF to Sweden's defence doctrine. I mean we r using the US's right now.

Anyways no matter how much I love Gripen, its Rafale I wana marry.
 

adsH

New Member
lol dude calm down you ve got to snap out of it, Rafael May be a prity Bird but i'm sure your not its type and am quiet a bit Disturbed that it may be yours.
Lol
Anyway Jokes aside the F-16 including the JF-17 the Mirages and F-7 would play a distinct role in PAF each with a speciality.Each platform has something ot to offer. Thats why PAF Will keep them in service. THE F-16 capability of Aerial defense is well known but its Multirole Capability makes it a cheap and attractive option for PAF. its a chance for PAf to boost up there defense while spending very little. the JF-17 and grippens would surely be the Future of PAF, I doubt PAF is going to go for J-10 if it gets Gripps, it would over complicate there already Complicated complex Logistics. the Idea is to be able to maintain the capability that you have to the Max rather then have an armada of assets that are not utilizable during war time. JF-17 would have Datalinks too so it may be possible to get it working in the way Grips do, Buying a grippen is more then Just buying a Weapons system its more about sharing expertise.
 

corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
The PAF doesnt seem interested in upgrading the F-7s to a BVR standard capable of performing hi tech interceptions. If it were to do so ,however, The F-7s in conjunction with ground based SAMs and good electronic support represented by the Eyerie and a few other EW aircraft, would leave most of the PAF free for CS and strike operations. If it doesnt, the F-7 would be a mere low tech aircraft for close support only and in that too badly mauled as well as a low tempo of air operations for the rest of the PAF and many IAF raids getting past PAF defenses.

It would be well for the PAF to consider upgrading the F-7s to a near hi tech standard as well with French/Italian electronics or just copy the J-7FS programme which belongs to the Chinese.
 

Salman78

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Time and again Pakistan has been betrayed by the West. Chineese are getting pretty good with their aircraft so JF-17 + J-10 would be a good duo. Eurofighter would be best since a bunch of countries are involved in the project/purchase so in times of need one of them might help us out with spares etc if needed.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

the Euro Fighter's prime contractor is BAE system we Manufacture the Main components, and we produce the Export Copies,weve designed the AC along with its Avionics and its Radar and Electronic systems.So it is a British Jet, most of the Jets complicated Composite Frame is manufactured in the UK. I doubt Pakistan would ever be Sanctioned again unless they do something utterly unacceptable.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

adsh. i don't think britian would be willing to sell such a high-tech aircraft to pakistan. if they did then relations with india would go down and that is the last thing mr blair wants.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

P.A.F said:
adsh. i don't think britian would be willing to sell such a high-tech aircraft to pakistan. if they did then relations with india would go down and that is the last thing mr blair wants.
On a party diplomatic level P.A.F might be right. British parties have same relationship scenerio as US has. Democrates r in favor of Indians while Republicans try to gain from Pakistan & thus take its side. In Britain Labour Party has had bad relations with Pakistan while Conservatives have at many occasions sided Pakistan.
The reason is that Labour Party did not suport partition of India & in 1947 Lord Atley gave a statement to reporter who asked him about Jinnah, he said "Yes I have met the man & I tell u I dont like him"

If the Labour fails to win this election, conservatives might just reopen arms sales to Pakistan.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

it would't make a difference who wins sabre. the bottom line is that britain as a nation is not going to sell such high-tech weapons to pakistan. indias arms purchases from britain are far more than ours and i'm sure britain doesn't want to lose such a healthy customer. britain has recently sold us a few hover crafts and thats the best they can do at the moment. the PAF might as well rule out the typhoon. france, sweden and the US are the best options.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

you guys fail to see that teh Pakistanis and the Saudi's are doing things together, So If pakistan opts for a system the Saudis might get teh same. Our Biggest ever sale of any one Product was the Tornado's to the Saudis and yes we we were chuffed while the US was shocked they rejected there F-16 offer, and went onn to buy out tornado's. that was a sign, US-Saudi's relations were decaying. the Pakistanis have the potential to influence the Saudi's for any platform. the Pakistanis are already running key areas of the Saudi security infrastructure.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

that doesn't mean that pakistan would get the typoon. if pakistan was involved with such a deal then britain would reject it. it's as simple as that.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Well for all we know is that Pakistan is not going for EF-2000. There is no word out there regarding this. For now both Pakistan & Saudi Arabia r lookin to Sweden. UAE is also involved with Pakistan & KSA but they already have ordered F-16 Block 60, so they r not coming along.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

P.A.F said:
that doesn't mean that pakistan would get the typoon. if pakistan was involved with such a deal then britain would reject it. it's as simple as that.
granted Pakistan may not consider this weapon system , but BAE system would have no trouble selling it to a potential buyer, who has Billions of £. its All about £ here. INdia will buy the EF, and the UK has nothing more of any significant value to offer the Indian Airforce, appart from helo's and various other systems, including trainers. But the UK would adopt a similar stance as the French. being neutral they would be able to sign on the Saudi's with there 10's of Billion dollar's deals(the last deal was around 17 billion). the Saudi's are the most important defense market for the UK, and the UK cannot "reject" any request from them. "P.A.F" Do your own research and findout about the dealings the saudi's have had with the British and you would realize the gravity of the situations, we've struck some of the biggest deals with the saudi's, in our history.

I think the Saudi's would be interested in the EF2000 since BAE systems has a logistical setup in the kingdom and its not just any establishment they have an impressive presence in the kingdom, so EF2000 is a likely choice for the Saud's
[/QUOTE]
The Daily Star ** December 9, 2003



Massive Saudi weapons deal draws unwanted attention to BAE Systems
British firm faces scrutiny as it tries to negotiate what would be the largest-ever sale to a foreign country
by Julie Flint


LONDON - Opposition to a multi-billion pound arms deal between Saudi Arabia and BAE Systems, Britain’s biggest arms company, is growing as a result of deepening regional instability and new revelations about an intricate system of secret commission payments that helped BAE win contracts abroad * most notoriously, in Saudi Arabia.

The new agreement, which is currently under negotiation, is the latest in a series of deals with Saudi Arabia that began in 1986 with Al-Yamamah I, Britain’s largest-ever arms contract with a foreign customer. Although the British government has refused to disclose the size of the agreement, perpetuating the culture of secrecy and unaccountability that has always surrounded Al-Yamamah, it is reported to include weapons, advanced avionics and refurbished planes worth up to 2.7 billion pounds ($5 billion).

The Al-Yamamah contracts grew out of the refusal of the US Congress to allow large packages of American arms to be sold to Saudi Arabia, a regime regularly accused of corruption on a massive scale, and have been the subject of intense controversy for almost two decades. Contracts signed so far include two agreements worth at least 15 billion pounds for Tornado and Hawk fighter-bombers, more than 80 military helicopters and air bases. Only weeks after the first deal was signed, it was alleged that sweetener payments totaling 600 million pounds had been made to fixers and the Saudi royal family. Britain’s National Audit Office opened an investigation into the allegations in 1989. Its report is the only NAO document that has never been published * on the grounds of national interest.



Until now, the main security concern surrounding Al-Yamamah has been Saudi Arabia’s reputation as an unreliable end-user of British weapons. (The kingdom is under no legal obligation to give details of end-users for equipment supplied under Al-Yamamah.) Before the toppling of Saddam Hussein, Riyadh was known to have sent arms to Iraq through Jordan, and CAAT claims there is “strong evidence†that it has, in the past, funded counter-revolutionary movements including the Taleban in Afghanistan and the nuclear programs of Iraq and Pakistan.

Adding to the concerns, BAE is, for the second time in less than three months, at the center of corruption allegations involving its Saudi deals, among others. BAE, created in 1999 by the merger of British Aerospace with Marconi Electronic Systems, has denied all illegality or wrongdoing.

After a lengthy investigation, Britain’s Guardian newspaper last week published details of how BAE allegedly sweetened some of its arms sales. It said the company removed its fingerprints from all covert commission payments by using a British Virgin Island company to distance itself from the transactions and a Swiss bank to keep the only copy of each agreement beyond the reach of British jurisdiction. The paper quoted a commission agent as saying: “I’ve worked for a lot of aircraft companies, but BAE is the only one with such an institutionalized system.â€

British companies are normally required to disclose the identity of their agents and the size of commissions paid so that the government’s export credits guarantee department (ECGD), which effectively subsidies many arms exports, can satisfy itself that the government is not misusing taxpayers’ money. BAE has consistently refused to hand over documents detailing the secret commissions it pays.

The Guardian said the allegations, made by some of those involved in the secret transactions, were based on internal BAE records and Swiss bank records. It said a “peculiarity†of the files it had seen was that they appeared to show the same agent getting two contracts * an “open†contract signed in London for straightforward payments at a modest commission rate, and a “covert†agreement signed and hidden in Switzerland for much larger sums alleged to be paid through BAE’s secret offshore channel.

A former BAE executive was quoted as saying that when a new Swiss bank became “custodian†of the secret agreements in the late 1990s, a special vault was constructed and swept for bugs before a BAE van transferred the secret files to the new location.

The paper named the two Swiss banks allegedly involved in the agreements as Lombard Odier and, later, Rene Merkt and Associates.

Asked for comment on the allegations against it, BAE told the Guardian: “In pursuit of its legitimate business goals, BAE Systems pays people for lawful activities to accomplish which they have been hired to do.†It did not respond to the allegation that it was using secret offshore companies to achieve its end. Nor did it explain how its alleged relationship with one BVI company, Red Diamond Trading, did not appear in its published accounts.

Asked why BAE’s agreements were lodged outside British jurisdiction, it said: “BAE Systems rigorously complies with the laws of the UK and the laws of the countries in which it operates. BAE denies any allegations of wrongdoing.â€

BAE has not yet commented on the Guardian story. But a former British defense minister, Labor MP Peter Kilfoyle, has called for an official investigation into the company.

“BAE Systems must come clean about its alleged illicit activities,†he said. “It only adds to the suspicion which surrounds BAE Systems that they see fit to channel large amounts of cash through offshore accounts. The Ministry of Defense must face up to their responsibilities in this regard, and as their biggest customers, investigate whether there is any truth in these allegations.â€

In September this year, the Guardian reported allegations that BAE used a front company, Robert Lee International, to operate a 20 million pound slush fund to bribe Saudi officials in connection with the Al-Yamamah deals.

BAE Systems chief executive Mike Turner did not deny the slush fund charges. “They are old allegations and they are old hat,†he told a press conference. “They are history … Everything we do is legal and that is all I am prepared to say. Whatever the law is, we are legal.â€

Sasha Lille, research coordinator at CorpWatch, said the reported slush fund sounded “like the stuff of pulp fiction * the UK’s largest armaments producer running a 20 million pound slush fund to finance prostitutes, gambling trips, yachts, sports cars and more for its most important clients and their intermediaries, greasing the wheels of the largest business deal in UK history.â€

Lille noted that the Saudis are not the only ones who may have profited from Al-Yamamah kickbacks. In 1993, Britain’s defense procurement minister, Jonathan Aiken, who played a key role in setting up the second Al-Yamamah deal, was imprisoned for letting the Saudis pay his bill at the Paris Ritz. The following year, the son of then-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was accused of receiving a 12 million pound commission from the Al-Yamamah deal.http://globalsecurity.com/war_and/massive_saudi.htm

ok first of all this Global security they're sore because we landed those deals not the US here we go Again :uk..... and second of all, i know know how the Saudi Government works, if they wanted Money they would draw it out of the Saudi Gov Accounts there is no one that can deny the fact that the Saudi Royal family don't have access to there own accounts they are the Government. it wouldn't of taken a Monkey 10 secs, to realize that !!!!

IF PAF has influence over the Saudi's then they are in a pritty good position to ask for EF 2000.
 
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