Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]
- Thread starter Mukesh Patel
- Start date
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Guys,
It doesn't seem right for pakistan to phase out U S product from its inventory, it doesnot sound sensible and I doubt that it would happen at all. U S technology and weaponery is way ahead of the competition in quality and reliability and pakistan millitary considers it a top priority to buy as much as possible.
Sanctions are a different issue. There was a lack of understanding of the american system, the american mindset, about the american media, the public and the congress by the pakistanis---one and all and pakistanis still have a ways to go in understanding the american psyche. They still have no clue as how to use the american public, the media and the congress to its advantage.
If the media, the public is on your side or is neutral then you can get more by better bargaining.
Americans are a suckers for a good sales pitch. Now, to some of you new young pakistani 'TURKS', everyone who was somebody,knew that the sanctions were coming except for the pakistanis----but still, the pakistanis went ahead and paid cash for the F 16's up front.
Guys, you never pay the U S for cash upfront. Never ever. Always buy on credit and make payments. That is how the americans live----that is the only way to do business with them. When the sanctions hit the sale, the pakistanis should have put a stop payment and filed a law suit in a U S federal
court for a breech of contract. Then they should have kept negotiations open for the release of money or release of equipment. In the due process the court date would have come closer and the opposition would have been forced an earlier settlement of the issue. Who understands a lawsuit better than an american----nobody. It is way of life over here. If you want to talk to somebody, you need to talk to them in their language----which means you must say what americans understand.
Americans would never ever be upset by a lawsuit against them----now on the other hand we pakistanis would be very embarrassed if somebody did that to us.
The same thing must be done with the BAGLIHAR DAM issue with india. The negotiations must go ahead in good faith but then pakistan must also file for a lawsuit in the world court as well. If the negotiations fail, then the law suit is already there----not as much time would be wasted.
Bottom line is that the pakistanis need to learn how to talk to the americans. So far, they have done not a poor job, but it is not a great job either under the circumstances.
Guys,
It doesn't seem right for pakistan to phase out U S product from its inventory, it doesnot sound sensible and I doubt that it would happen at all. U S technology and weaponery is way ahead of the competition in quality and reliability and pakistan millitary considers it a top priority to buy as much as possible.
Sanctions are a different issue. There was a lack of understanding of the american system, the american mindset, about the american media, the public and the congress by the pakistanis---one and all and pakistanis still have a ways to go in understanding the american psyche. They still have no clue as how to use the american public, the media and the congress to its advantage.
If the media, the public is on your side or is neutral then you can get more by better bargaining.
Americans are a suckers for a good sales pitch. Now, to some of you new young pakistani 'TURKS', everyone who was somebody,knew that the sanctions were coming except for the pakistanis----but still, the pakistanis went ahead and paid cash for the F 16's up front.
Guys, you never pay the U S for cash upfront. Never ever. Always buy on credit and make payments. That is how the americans live----that is the only way to do business with them. When the sanctions hit the sale, the pakistanis should have put a stop payment and filed a law suit in a U S federal
court for a breech of contract. Then they should have kept negotiations open for the release of money or release of equipment. In the due process the court date would have come closer and the opposition would have been forced an earlier settlement of the issue. Who understands a lawsuit better than an american----nobody. It is way of life over here. If you want to talk to somebody, you need to talk to them in their language----which means you must say what americans understand.
Americans would never ever be upset by a lawsuit against them----now on the other hand we pakistanis would be very embarrassed if somebody did that to us.
The same thing must be done with the BAGLIHAR DAM issue with india. The negotiations must go ahead in good faith but then pakistan must also file for a lawsuit in the world court as well. If the negotiations fail, then the law suit is already there----not as much time would be wasted.
Bottom line is that the pakistanis need to learn how to talk to the americans. So far, they have done not a poor job, but it is not a great job either under the circumstances.
mysterious
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Hmmm, lets see. Ever heard of a country named India and its traditional alliance with Russia? The duo on one side and Sino-Pak on the other? Pakistan having strong influence in China over regional matters and vice versa while India throwing its weight in on the Russian side and vice versa? History is what you need my friend.armage said:
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Its not only India stopping Russia. There r other issues too. Cant discuss them here. Anyways Russia "is" opening doors to Pakistan. They did sell military helicopters to us, even though India did protest the deal went ahead. If India keeps on shifting its military market away from Russia, Russia will slowly start opening its market to Pakistan (& they did come out with this threat indirectly).
I think Russia has started to realize that unlike India, Pakistan comes along with a package of Middle Eastern countries. If they sell any thing to Pakistan than Pakistan will also influence KSA,UAE & others to opt for it as well. This is y the helicopter deal went ahead I suppose.
They also provided some assisstance with JF-17 project, knowing that Pakistan is involved. Also agreed to provide engine but have pulled out now from engine deal.
Well its Russia's choice to choose either large Indian market or Huge Pakistani market.
Its not only India stopping Russia. There r other issues too. Cant discuss them here. Anyways Russia "is" opening doors to Pakistan. They did sell military helicopters to us, even though India did protest the deal went ahead. If India keeps on shifting its military market away from Russia, Russia will slowly start opening its market to Pakistan (& they did come out with this threat indirectly).
I think Russia has started to realize that unlike India, Pakistan comes along with a package of Middle Eastern countries. If they sell any thing to Pakistan than Pakistan will also influence KSA,UAE & others to opt for it as well. This is y the helicopter deal went ahead I suppose.
They also provided some assisstance with JF-17 project, knowing that Pakistan is involved. Also agreed to provide engine but have pulled out now from engine deal.
Well its Russia's choice to choose either large Indian market or Huge Pakistani market.
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Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
T-90,Su-30,Gorshy are some big deals which india signed in the recent times.
Both of them have Technical cooperation till 2010 and recent news about India participating in Russian Fifth generation fighter program shows that their cooperation will surely continue for next 20 years.
Recent Visit of putin was very Sucessful.
India has large buying capability and buyed some big weapons from Russia.
Except buying some fighters,electronics and missiles from West,India has buyed most of its weapons from Russian.
T-90,Su-30,Gorshy are some big deals which india signed in the recent times.
Both of them have Technical cooperation till 2010 and recent news about India participating in Russian Fifth generation fighter program shows that their cooperation will surely continue for next 20 years.
Recent Visit of putin was very Sucessful.
I did not understand about the difference between Huge and Large.
India has large buying capability and buyed some big weapons from Russia.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
for god sake don't some of u guys understand!!!
pakistan isn't in a position to turn to russia and ask for big time military assistance. the closest to that is ukraine.
at the moment pakistan in my point of view can turn to china, france, sweden and the US. and thats it.
for god sake don't some of u guys understand!!!
pakistan isn't in a position to turn to russia and ask for big time military assistance. the closest to that is ukraine.
at the moment pakistan in my point of view can turn to china, france, sweden and the US. and thats it.
mysterious
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Lets not forget Australia, Italy and a couple of others.
Lets not forget Australia, Italy and a couple of others.
Raven_Wing278
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
thats a lot of countries with quality tech so i dont think u should say "thats it"...more like...pakistan has so many options that it cant decide which one to take...if they ask for military hardware from America n some other western countries they'll anger china whos pakistans closest n most valuable ally
thats a lot of countries with quality tech so i dont think u should say "thats it"...more like...pakistan has so many options that it cant decide which one to take...if they ask for military hardware from America n some other western countries they'll anger china whos pakistans closest n most valuable ally
mysterious
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
No they wont anger China. Pakistan has had military platforms from western countries as well as China for long now. China knows that its technologically behind and so its only natural for Pakistan to go for advanced systems from western suppliers. Lets just say Sino-Pak relationship is way beyond such petty issues.
No they wont anger China. Pakistan has had military platforms from western countries as well as China for long now. China knows that its technologically behind and so its only natural for Pakistan to go for advanced systems from western suppliers. Lets just say Sino-Pak relationship is way beyond such petty issues.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Sino-Pak relation is not based on Arms deals, India's Relation to Russia is ourely business and less strategic now (after teh Coldwar). China's relation with pakistan is based on trust and China now see's its realtions with Pakistan as strategic as pakistan has always seen its realtion with, China.
China wants Western military Equipment (hence logic dictates Pakistan cannot be forced into depravation and arm twisting is not logical nor is it desirable)and european arms manufacturers do want to cater that need (the more we sell, the more we put in R&D therefore, we rely less on US owned R&D). but it's US pressure (which is loosing grip over EU nations as we speak!!). Unfortunately the US cannot control EU, since we (EU) when combined together can equal the US in numerous fields.
Sino-Pak relation is not based on Arms deals, India's Relation to Russia is ourely business and less strategic now (after teh Coldwar). China's relation with pakistan is based on trust and China now see's its realtions with Pakistan as strategic as pakistan has always seen its realtion with, China.
China wants Western military Equipment (hence logic dictates Pakistan cannot be forced into depravation and arm twisting is not logical nor is it desirable)and european arms manufacturers do want to cater that need (the more we sell, the more we put in R&D therefore, we rely less on US owned R&D). but it's US pressure (which is loosing grip over EU nations as we speak!!). Unfortunately the US cannot control EU, since we (EU) when combined together can equal the US in numerous fields.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
By huge I ment was that when Pakistan goes into new military market, they r followed by Middle Eastern Allies.
India is large & buys in large quantity but if Pakistan buys some thing, KSA,UAE & few others also buy similar equipment in a joint purchase which offers more money to seller, than India alone.
By large I mean what u have said in the last in "India has large buying power......"ajay_ijn said:
By huge I ment was that when Pakistan goes into new military market, they r followed by Middle Eastern Allies.
India is large & buys in large quantity but if Pakistan buys some thing, KSA,UAE & few others also buy similar equipment in a joint purchase which offers more money to seller, than India alone.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Joint purchase???
I have never heard that.
What has pakistan jointly buyed from Middle east countries??
Countries have different doctrines,aims and Purchasing capability.Countries like UAE and Saudi arabia can buy Costly hardware and have different aims, doctrines,evaluation procedure,Deals from pakistan.
I heard of joint Development,Joint operations
Joint purchase???
I have never heard that.
What has pakistan jointly buyed from Middle east countries??
Countries have different doctrines,aims and Purchasing capability.Countries like UAE and Saudi arabia can buy Costly hardware and have different aims, doctrines,evaluation procedure,Deals from pakistan.
ravi_n_naik
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
From the kind of help pakistan gets from the US under the anti-terrorism excuse, more F-16s would be logical, but that would clearly make them more vulnerable to sanctions. I do not think that european nations will readily offer the the eurofighter.
The Mirage is a good option , but since india already has it (although not yet the 2000-5) PAF will not have an edge over its rival the IAF.
the chinese fighters although inferior are most suitable for the PAF, since china is a reliable weapons supplier for PAF, but the capability of these fighters remains much inferior to european and american fighters.
From the kind of help pakistan gets from the US under the anti-terrorism excuse, more F-16s would be logical, but that would clearly make them more vulnerable to sanctions. I do not think that european nations will readily offer the the eurofighter.
The Mirage is a good option , but since india already has it (although not yet the 2000-5) PAF will not have an edge over its rival the IAF.
the chinese fighters although inferior are most suitable for the PAF, since china is a reliable weapons supplier for PAF, but the capability of these fighters remains much inferior to european and american fighters.
mysterious
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
No (you only have to read one of PAF related threads to get the picture). Its inventory includes F-16s, Q-5s, Mirage III/V (ROSE), F-7PG, F-7P (in the process of being upgraded to PG classification). Jf-17 is coming soon enough while the hunt for the main frontline AC is on and is taking time (due to certain factors).
No (you only have to read one of PAF related threads to get the picture). Its inventory includes F-16s, Q-5s, Mirage III/V (ROSE), F-7PG, F-7P (in the process of being upgraded to PG classification). Jf-17 is coming soon enough while the hunt for the main frontline AC is on and is taking time (due to certain factors).
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
KSA & UAE follow the same doctorine as of Pakistan, as Pakistanis were to setup their armed forces structure.
Hence with Doctorine similar to that of Pakistan, a Pakistani advisor in KSA & UAE will always advice tecnology that his country believes to be the best.
UAE bought F-16s when Pakistan decided to buy them, KSA wanted to F-16s too but PAF advisors in KSA adviced them to buy F-15s. This gave PAF pilots to train on F-15s as well.
Hence this is how ME's major countries tend to go for joint purchase with Pakistan. They believe what Pakistan buys is the best for them too.
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The new roumer arround is that PAF F-16s may arrive by June-July 2005, on the other hand groups of Pakistani techs & pilots r leaving for Sweden. They say they r off for some sort of course & training
Well if u dont know, KSA, UAE & other big ME countries dont have proper military know how & knowledge, for that reason they appoint members of Pakistan armed forces. The Chief of All Armed forces of KSA is Prince Sultan Bin Abdul Aziz who knows nothing about armed forces, so he appoints an advisor who so far has always been a member of Pakistani armed forces.ajay_ijn said:
KSA & UAE follow the same doctorine as of Pakistan, as Pakistanis were to setup their armed forces structure.
Hence with Doctorine similar to that of Pakistan, a Pakistani advisor in KSA & UAE will always advice tecnology that his country believes to be the best.
UAE bought F-16s when Pakistan decided to buy them, KSA wanted to F-16s too but PAF advisors in KSA adviced them to buy F-15s. This gave PAF pilots to train on F-15s as well.
Hence this is how ME's major countries tend to go for joint purchase with Pakistan. They believe what Pakistan buys is the best for them too.
------------------------------------------
The new roumer arround is that PAF F-16s may arrive by June-July 2005, on the other hand groups of Pakistani techs & pilots r leaving for Sweden. They say they r off for some sort of course & training
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
it may be to get training for the AWACs.SABRE said:Well if u dont know, KSA, UAE & other big ME countries dont have proper military know how & knowledge, for that reason they appoint members of Pakistan armed forces. The Chief of All Armed forces of KSA is Prince Sultan Bin Abdul Aziz who knows nothing about armed forces, so he appoints an advisor who so far has always been a member of Pakistani armed forces.
KSA & UAE follow the same doctorine as of Pakistan, as Pakistanis were to setup their armed forces structure.
Hence with Doctorine similar to that of Pakistan, a Pakistani advisor in KSA & UAE will always advice tecnology that his country believes to be the best.
UAE bought F-16s when Pakistan decided to buy them, KSA wanted to F-16s too but PAF advisors in KSA adviced them to buy F-15s. This gave PAF pilots to train on F-15s as well.
Hence this is how ME's major countries tend to go for joint purchase with Pakistan. They believe what Pakistan buys is the best for them too.
------------------------------------------
The new roumer arround is that PAF F-16s may arrive by June-July 2005, on the other hand groups of Pakistani techs & pilots r leaving for Sweden. They say they r off for some sort of course & training
mysterious
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Probably for Erieye I think, if the talk about pilots and techs going to Sweden is true.
Probably for Erieye I think, if the talk about pilots and techs going to Sweden is true.