Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]
- Thread starter Mukesh Patel
- Start date
Well, of course we can't block it, I just said I think we would try.adsH said:high sea i don't think the US can block the EF-2000 sale to PAF, its our Jet..
But I think the UK and the US are on the same page on this anyway. Nobody wants to escalate the tensions between Pak and India right now, which inducting the Typhoon or Eagle would likely do.IIRC, the US even bought something like 14 used Mig-29C's a few years back, just to keep them from being sold to Iran.
But if you guys want to sell EF's to Pakistan, go for it! Maybe we can get a bidding war going between the F-15 and the Typhoon.
: Actually, I think the Typhoon would be a better option for Pak than F-15's if they want a hi-lo mix, as it should be quite capable in a fighter support role. All in all, I think Pak would be better off with just F-16's. Most of the likely engagement areas are rugged mountainous terrain, and that's where the nimble little F-16 really shines.
In a dogfight scenario, I think the Viper could stay on the deck and out manouver his opponent. It's short turning radius gives the F-16 a good chance to be the first to bring the nose around on the target, and it's the perfect AC for hiding in the valleys and amongst the terrain where it would be much more difficult to get a missile lock.
-CM
Ok now weve got the Envelope Problem High altitude is a problem for paf. they will have AEW&C as support and they would have networking with automated SAM defence system for High low and medium altitude area. the problem really at hand is to solve the problem of IAF pushhing its AC to a higher altitudes to evade the Vipers block 60, there is very little PAF can do to prevent them(SU-30) from climbing beyond the vipers flying envelope, unless the block 60 has high altitude capability (i doubt it does). so what PAf can do is either use its SAM network to deal with the SU-30mki (flying high altitude to Target PAF and Pak Army targets) or it can use the F-16 to engage the SU-30 from lower altitudes id say couple of Side winders would do the job. the problem is that PAF wouldn't be able to pursue the SU-30 to a higher altitude, but its doen't mean it can't make its(SU-30mki) life a living hell up in that altitude.
the SU-30mki would either have to move out of the territory or would have to come down to engage the Viper head onn. i am sure sidewinders could be abit of a problem for the SU-30mki too.
PAF wants Mirages or some other AC too that can climb higher altitudes. but i really don't see the benefit in buying higher altitude AC just to engage SU-30 at high altitude, there are ways to counter High altitude AC.
the SU-30mki would either have to move out of the territory or would have to come down to engage the Viper head onn. i am sure sidewinders could be abit of a problem for the SU-30mki too.
PAF wants Mirages or some other AC too that can climb higher altitudes. but i really don't see the benefit in buying higher altitude AC just to engage SU-30 at high altitude, there are ways to counter High altitude AC.
Cool!WebMaster said:
I tried to link some pictures direct, but it bombed. Oh well. Here is the link.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_photos_album42.html
-CM
That's what I was getting at earlier. The Block 60 is supposed to have a very good radar. If the Viper sees the Su-30 first, it can launch an AIM-120 from BVR, then drop down to the deck and play hide and seek. There is a good chance the SU-30 wouldn't even see the F-16 in this scenario. As you mentioned, the Su-30 is also being harassed by SAM's the whole time, so the pilot is pretty busy.adsH said:
It depends who is attacking who. If India is attacking, then they have no incentive to go chasing the Viper through the hills. Why waste all your fuel trying to catch something you probably can't catch? They can just continue on to their target. The F-16 has no choice but to come up to engage.
If Pakistan is the attacker, then the IAF has no choice but to try to chase the F-16 down, so by staying low, the F-16 takes away the Su-30's combat ceiling and speed advantages.
-CM
the SU30 would definitely be used for Strategic bombing of PAK targets so there's a good chance they would use-higher altitude for the Bombing runs surveillance and marking of targets, viper has no other choice but to use Sidewinders as i have mentioned. now i know its realy hard to target Higher altitude AC from lower altitude but its all in the angle, the nose is placed so a lock can be achieved.
i am predicting the Mki has a ceiling of 57415 feet a total of 17500 m, but surprisingly it has a lower turn tolerance +7 g the F-16 Block 60 has a ceiling of 40000 feet and a turn tolerance of +9 g, thats would definately make the Viper more deadly in close combat (wouldn't it) but it would have problem if the SU-30 decided to stay at a high altitudes.
the F-16 E/F Block 60's radar
The APG-80 is designed to search continuously for and track multiple targets within the forward hemisphere of the aircraft. As a result of increased operational flexibility, pilots will be able to simultaneously perform air-to-air search- and-track, air-to-ground targeting and aircraft terrain-following. Additional advances of the APG-80 agile beam radar include much greater detection range, high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery, and a two-fold increase in reliability compared to conventional, mechanically scanned radars.
Extra kit
In addition to the radar, Northrop Grumman is providing the Integrated Forward-Looking Infrared and Targeting System (IFTS) and the Integrated Electronic Warfare System (IEWS) for the F-16 Block 60 aircraft. Included in the Block 60 contract is the Combined Intermediate Automatic Test Equipment (CIATE) program. The CIATE is capable of automatically testing all three Northrop Grumman sensor systems -- the APG-80, IFTS, and IEWS -- and will detect faults and allow subsystem repair down to the component level.
the F-16 E/F Block 60's radar
The APG-80 is designed to search continuously for and track multiple targets within the forward hemisphere of the aircraft. As a result of increased operational flexibility, pilots will be able to simultaneously perform air-to-air search- and-track, air-to-ground targeting and aircraft terrain-following. Additional advances of the APG-80 agile beam radar include much greater detection range, high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery, and a two-fold increase in reliability compared to conventional, mechanically scanned radars.
Extra kit
In addition to the radar, Northrop Grumman is providing the Integrated Forward-Looking Infrared and Targeting System (IFTS) and the Integrated Electronic Warfare System (IEWS) for the F-16 Block 60 aircraft. Included in the Block 60 contract is the Combined Intermediate Automatic Test Equipment (CIATE) program. The CIATE is capable of automatically testing all three Northrop Grumman sensor systems -- the APG-80, IFTS, and IEWS -- and will detect faults and allow subsystem repair down to the component level.
Radar's "forward hemisphere" does anyone know how much it can scan like 180 degree and is that Vertically and horizontally.
high Sea !! i think PAF would do alot better with EF2000, don't you !!
the F-15 are older (i know they are pure quality ) but lets be honest its now going to be replaced soon its assembly line would shutdown, that doesn't inspire alot of confidence. EF2000 is entering service and definitely has a bright future with multiple operators. i think Were going to win this one my friend !! :uk
the F-15 are older (i know they are pure quality ) but lets be honest its now going to be replaced soon its assembly line would shutdown, that doesn't inspire alot of confidence. EF2000 is entering service and definitely has a bright future with multiple operators. i think Were going to win this one my friend !! :uk
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s
adsH, I think I would pick the Typhoon also. F-15E/F production is funded until 2008. I expect it would shut down at that time, because the JSF will be coming online, and we should have about 100 F-22's in service by then.
The F-15 is a proven platform, and though it's dominant today, it won't stay that way forever. The EF2000 is a much more modern AC, stealthier, cheaper to operate and service, and will remain a viable platform for many years to come. It's also $10 Million bucks cheaper than the F-15E/F, so that makes the decision even easier. All the PAF has to do now is figure out how to pay for it! :eek
The PAF, operating the EF2000, F-16, and JF-17, tied together with AEW&C and datalinking, and armed with BVR missiles, AIM-132's ASRAAM's and PGM's would be a pretty formidable opponent!
With it's western avionics and EW suite, will the JF-17 be able to carry NATO munitions?
adsH, I think I would pick the Typhoon also. F-15E/F production is funded until 2008. I expect it would shut down at that time, because the JSF will be coming online, and we should have about 100 F-22's in service by then.
The F-15 is a proven platform, and though it's dominant today, it won't stay that way forever. The EF2000 is a much more modern AC, stealthier, cheaper to operate and service, and will remain a viable platform for many years to come. It's also $10 Million bucks cheaper than the F-15E/F, so that makes the decision even easier.
All the PAF has to do now is figure out how to pay for it! :eek The PAF, operating the EF2000, F-16, and JF-17, tied together with AEW&C and datalinking, and armed with BVR missiles, AIM-132's ASRAAM's and PGM's would be a pretty formidable opponent!
With it's western avionics and EW suite, will the JF-17 be able to carry NATO munitions?
mysterious
New Member
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s
I think 'yeah' the Jf-17 could very well carry NATO munitions with the western avionics and EW suite as Pakistan already has plenty of experience with equipment mixes of western and chinese origins. :smokingc:
I think 'yeah' the Jf-17 could very well carry NATO munitions with the western avionics and EW suite as Pakistan already has plenty of experience with equipment mixes of western and chinese origins. :smokingc:
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s
Fighting at the low alttitude is some thing PAF has been training its pilots since we got the Northrop Grumman's F-86 Sabres & Super Sonic Star fighter. In 1965 one of the IAF Jet took lower altitude to escape PAF Jets & reach to Hyderabad city but to his bad a low altitude trained Pilot on board Star Fighter was also fighting for PAF. He battled that Jet head on & shot it down & started a new era of low altitude air combat. 2 days later 5 IAF Jets were shot down at low altitude. IAF Jets were trying to escape the radars by flying just 30 meters above the ground. The radar used to display enemy flying 35 meters above ground level. In a similar way PAF carried out its mission 30 meters above the ground inside India & returned home safely. They remained invisible to radar when they reached in side India & when the left India. So PAF has a low altitude training.
I think u ppl r right. EF-2000 along with F-16s n JF-17 would be better to fight for PAF. Both at high n low altitude. EF-2000 can take on SU-30 flying at high altitude n if the SU-30 tries to escape n takes low altitude, F-16 would be waiting for it. If its deep inside Pak than JF-17 along with F-16 & EF-2000 would grab it by its throat.
But now days PAF seems to be more interested in Gripens. What role can Gripen play in this whole scenerio?
In Kashmir I told u IAF wont dare to fly. The mountains r very high, the most highst mountains in South Asia r found on Pakistani side in Kashmir & all of them are fortified by Pak army with Anti AC guns & may be SAMS. IAF Jets crossed in KArgil in 1999. One was shot down by anit air craft gun the other was shot down by Pak army firing at it. Even if IAF manages to escape these highly fortified mountains & some how reaches GilGit sector than they will again become easy target for near by Chaklala Air Base which is the capital of PAF. But anyways the mountains r so high in Pak Kashmir side that even SU-30 can be shot down from them while its trying to reach high alltitude.highsea said:Sabre, I was imagining the conflict taking place in Kashmir. You are right, a fighter can hardly evade an attacker by flying low over a desert. In that case, we are back to F-15E's or EF2000's. $$$$$$
-CM
Fighting at the low alttitude is some thing PAF has been training its pilots since we got the Northrop Grumman's F-86 Sabres & Super Sonic Star fighter. In 1965 one of the IAF Jet took lower altitude to escape PAF Jets & reach to Hyderabad city but to his bad a low altitude trained Pilot on board Star Fighter was also fighting for PAF. He battled that Jet head on & shot it down & started a new era of low altitude air combat. 2 days later 5 IAF Jets were shot down at low altitude. IAF Jets were trying to escape the radars by flying just 30 meters above the ground. The radar used to display enemy flying 35 meters above ground level. In a similar way PAF carried out its mission 30 meters above the ground inside India & returned home safely. They remained invisible to radar when they reached in side India & when the left India. So PAF has a low altitude training.
I think u ppl r right. EF-2000 along with F-16s n JF-17 would be better to fight for PAF. Both at high n low altitude. EF-2000 can take on SU-30 flying at high altitude n if the SU-30 tries to escape n takes low altitude, F-16 would be waiting for it. If its deep inside Pak than JF-17 along with F-16 & EF-2000 would grab it by its throat.
But now days PAF seems to be more interested in Gripens. What role can Gripen play in this whole scenerio?