Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?


  • Total voters
    95

yasin_khan

New Member
Sabre
U r right that if we go for F-16s then we will buy it with TOT......LOL.There is no such proof that we are having them and u r asking about TOT.Brother they will not give us TOT. :(
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

i agree with sabre. a few squadrons should be purchases as a second line aircrfat but the question is do we have the money for a front-line jet ontop? i don't think so.
 

ashoaib

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Yes PAF should move on thats why I had wrote this.

ashoaib said:
Good News Guys Finally US become willing to sell F-16s to Pakistan said by Air cheif marshal Kaleem Sadat today. Officially, decision will be declared after elections. Is it worthwhile to have F-16s alomg with JF-17 because both are same line of ACs. Is it not worthwile to have fourth gen ACs like EF-2000, Rafale or Gripen?
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

pakistan can't just keep having f-16 f-16 f-16. modern and good airforces have different variaties of jets. take india for example. look at it's variaty. pakistan should go for something else as well and not just f-16 f-16 f-16. it would be good to have a few more squadrons but thats it. we should buy gripen mirage etc ontop of that. jf-17 with f-16 mirage f-7's as second line and gripen or others for first line to lead and destroy. :smokingc:
 

ashoaib

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

P.A.F, problem is money F-16s are cheap platform thats why Pakistan always go for them others are expensive. If other......, than gripen will not be my choice I will prefer EF-2000 coz its a more high tech font line AC with high manouvers best for dog fight and long operations. After EF rafale is my choice coz it can be use as a fast flying bomber.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

yes i wouldn't mind if the PAf get any of these gripens eurofighter or rafale. they are all good. however if money is the issue then i think pakistan should buy a few squadrons of f-16's if possible and then buy any of the 3 high-tech jets above. some thing like 30-40 would do and then buy some later. but shakat aziz is the prime ministerof pak and i'm sure he can do some financial business :D:.
 

Doggie

New Member
> Brother they will not give us TOT

The better question is what will u even do with TOT. Unless there is a diversified aerospace and semi-conducter industry to absorb various technologies, TOT is as good as useless.

Its like handing a layman the schematics of a Pentium chip. Yea I'll hand it over for 100 million, but what can you do with it? Unless you are AMD and know about processor design and have fabs, it will be like a pig staring at a Rolex watch.

Building a modern 4th generation military plane is not nut & bolt technology. It took Japan 12 years working on the F-16 to produce its own variant of it called the F-2.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

pakistan is not dumb. it knows how to use it's TOT. TOT can also be used to upgrade and improve other jets.
 

adsH

New Member
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - SEPTEMBER 22, 2004

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IDEAS exhibition: US offers to sell F-16s to Pakistan
JOSHUA KUCERA JDW Staff Reporter
Karachi, Pakistan
Additional reporting by Michael Sirak JDW Staff Reporter
Washington, DC

The US is offering to sell 18 F-16 fighter aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pending Congressional approval: one of several such deals in the works after years of US-led defence sanctions against Pakistan, the PAF Chief of Staff has disclosed.

"[The Americans] have indicated that they are ready to give us F-16s," said Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Kaleem Saadat. "This is not a rumour; it is from the American government."

Pakistan said it hopes the deal is the beginning of greater US co-operation. "Eighteen I consider to be the first instalment of what would follow," ACM Saadat told JDW. Approval from Congress, however, is not likely to come until after the US elections in November, he said.

Pakistan is asking that the F-16s be equipped with Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs). Along with additional fighter aircraft, Pakistan has also outlined a requirement for a beyond-visual-range missile, which the AMRAAM would meet.

Sanctions

In 1988-89, Pakistan arranged to supplement its stock of 40 F-16A/Bs - about 32 of which remained in service as of 2003 - by ordering an additional 71 aircraft. Lockheed Martin began producing them, but then the US Congress imposed sanctions in 1995 that barred military sales to the country unless the US President could certify that Pakistan was not pursuing nuclear weapons.

As a result, only 28 of the 71 were ever built and none of them were delivered to Pakistan. Instead they were kept in storage in the US until the Bush administration reimbursed the Pakistanis financially and assigned 14 aircraft each to the US Air Force and Navy in June 2002 for training and testing purposes.

The episode still rankles in Pakistan and the renewed possibility of acquiring F-16s is seen partly as making amends in thanks for Pakistan's efforts as an ally of the US in the wake of 9/11.

"Right from day one, we have been impressing upon the US government what symbolic value the F-16 has for the Pakistani people and the Pakistani nation," ACM Saadat said. "So it's not as if 10, 15, 20 aircraft would make a world of difference in our operational capability, but it's a symbol in the sense that the people of Pakistan think that if they give us this then they are really sincere in helping us."

In addition, the US thinks that the F-16s could help Pakistan in its fight against Islamist insurgents in the country's northwest, ACM Saadat said. "So I guess the US government and [US] Central Command believes it would be helpful to their cause also," he said. The AMRAAMs, however, would be more useful against India than against ground targets in the northwest.

Lockheed Martin officials also said Pakistan's key role as a US ally appeared to be paying dividends. "If you read what you see in the papers in the last two or three weeks, I would say there's probably more opportunity than there was [for the F-16 deal]," said James Jamerson, Lockheed's president for the Middle East and Africa. "The 9/11 commission singled out Pakistan and said it was an important ally and that we need to do it right. Secretary [Colin] Powell made some comments, Senator [John] Kerry made some comments that were positive."

Jamerson said it was not yet decided what type of F-16s they would be, but said Pakistan has requested new aircraft, which would most likely be Block 50 variants. ACM Sadaat said he was also "open to excess defence articles".

Lockheed Martin is currently producing only advanced Block 50/52 aircraft and the newer Block 60 configuration. However, the US Air Force has several hundred F-16A/B aircraft remaining in 'mothballs'. The US government has already sold approximately 150 F-16A/Bs to six nations and modified them via the Mid-Life Update programme that brings their avionics and weapons capabilities near to that of earlier model Block50/52 aircraft.

Pakistan has also sought second-hand F-16A/Bs from countries like Belgium. Such transactions would require US government approval.

Arrangement

If approved, the Pakistani F-16s, would still not fill Pakistan's requirement for a high-tech fighter, ACM Saadat said, adding that the country is still looking at the Gripen, J-10, Mirage 2000 and additional F-16s. Sweden had been under pressure from the US not to allow the sale of the Gripen, but if the F-16 deal goes through, that may be resolved, ACM Saadat said. "What I am told is that they have an arrangement with Saab that whatever they supply to any country, they can't prevent Sweden from doing it. That is to say, if the F-16 and AMRAAM was to come to Pakistan, the Americans will not be able to object to Sweden doing the same thing," he said.

Pakistan is now waiting for Sweden to decide whether it will allow the sale and is also conducting testing of the J-10.

That high-tech aircraft will supplement the larger numbers of more modest JF-17 fighters that Pakistan is developing with China. The first prototype flew last September and since then two new ones have been built and are being flown in China, ACM Saadat said. After the fourth prototype is produced, development will be frozen for the first small-batch production, starting in 2006. The Pakistan Air Force and the the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force will each get eight of those. Then full production should go on for 10-15 years.

In early September, the US also concluded a deal to sell six C-130Es to Pakistan. Two will be delivered by the end of 2004 and all will get wing, engine and avionics upgrades. One avionics kit will be installed in the US and then Lockheed Martin will send a team to Pakistan to help local industry install the rest.

The US has also agreed to help the Pakistan Navy refurbish its two P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, said Chief of Navy Staff Adm Shahid Karimullah. The work will start in November, he said, and will restore them to an operational state.

Pakistan is also negotiating with the US for eight additional Orions to replace its Breguet Atlantic maritime patrol aircraft: a deal that would also require Congressional approval. "The number has not been finalised - certainly enough to replace our ageing Atlantics," said Adm Karimullah. Those would probablybe used aircraft, Lockheed Martin officials said.

'Pakistan to receive US assistance' (JDW 5 May 2004)

'Pakistan seeks additional F-16s' (JDW 27 August 2003)

'Washington promises $3bn in aid to Pakistan' (JDW 2 July 2003)

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Date Posted: 17-Sep-2004


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - SEPTEMBER 22, 2004

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IDEAS: Pakistan plans to buy more ships and boats
JOSHUA KUCERA JDW Staff Reporter
Washington, DC
Additional reporting by Farhan Bokhari JDW Special Correspondent
Islamabad, Pakistan

The Pakistan Navy is seeking to acquire four frigates and four submarines in addition to the four Type F-22P frigates (Jaingwei-II class), currently being negotiated with China, and the three Agosta 90-B submarines being built by France.

"The four ships from the Chinese and the three submarines are not enough to maintain a minimum deterrence," Chief of Navy Staff Adm Shahid Karimullah said. "We need more. The money is being arranged for us to acquire more submarines and more ships."

While acquisition plans are still in the early stages, they depend on uncertain funding sources, the Commander, Pakistan Fleet, Vice Adm Mohammad Faroon, told JDW. However, for now the navy is looking at "roughly four" additional new submarines, he said. "More or fewer are possible, if more or less money becomes available," he said. "You have to look in your pocket and then decide what you can buy."

The navy is still considering a variety of options for the submarines, but is primarily focusing on a single-hull design and air independent propulsion. "These will be the primary things that guide us," Adm Faroon said. The design should be finalised by 2005, with work starting in late 2005 or early 2006 allowing the four boats to be completed by 2011-12, he added.

After production of the F-22Ps is started, Pakistan will again evaluate its needs with an eye to acquiring an additional four frigates, Adm Faroon said. "If our experience with the F-22Ps is good, we may go in for another four, with better sensors, better machinery," he added. The navy is now considering a larger ship - more than 3,000 tons as compared to the 2,400-ton ships under consideration now - with greater endurance, he noted.

Pakistan and China are close to signing a deal for the four F-22P frigates for which they have already been negotiating and only need to work out the details of a loan that China is offering Pakistan, Adm Karimullah said.

"We hope that this loan will be finalised and soon after that we'll be able to sign a contract," he said. China was offering a commercial loan and Pakistan was looking for "friendship" terms, he added.

The ships will be equipped with "at least one" each of the naval version of the Hafei Aviation Industry Z-9C helicopter, Adm Faroon said. However, the rest of the weapons and systems were still under negotiation, he said.

The Pakistan Navy also took delivery earlier this month of two additional Jalalal-class fast attack craft-missile boats. "These are the improved version of the ones we had made about four to five years ago. These are faster, with a more attractive weapon load," Adm Karimullah said.

The procurement plans come amid increasing US-Pakistani naval co-operation (see page 4). Adm Karimullah said one Pakistan Navy destroyer will be patrolling international waters near Pakistan trying to interdict potential insurgent operations. Senior Pakistani government officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Pakistan is offering to support the US naval presence in the northern Arabian Sea, close to the Persian Gulf.

Pakistan has offered to extend unspecified support services to the US Navy if Washington gives consideration to supplying Pakistan with new equipment, such as maritime reconnaissance aircraft, the officials said. "The Pakistan Navy is in the ideal position of being able to be of assistance to the US Navy in such a crucial part of the world," said one government official.

"Our navy can perform a range of functions from assistance in patrolling the waters of the northern Arabian Sea to providing logistical support wherever possible."

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Date Posted: 17-Sep-2004


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - SEPTEMBER 22, 2004

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IDEAS: HIT negotiating Khalid deal with Saudi Arabia
Joshua Kucera JDW Staff Reporter, Karachi
Pakistan Additional reporting Christopher F Foss JDW Land Forces Editor

Pakistan is negotiating with Saudi Arabia a deal to export "hundreds" of its Al Khalid main battle tanks (MBTs) for the Royal Saudi Army, according to officials from Al Khalid manufacturer Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).

HIT has carried out tests of the Khalid, also known as the MBT 2000, in Pakistan and within a year will test it in Sharurah in southern Saudi Arabia, said HIT chairman Maj Gen Israr Ahmad Ghumman. "The Saudis buy in the hundreds," Gen Ghumman said. "We are not interested in selling in the dozens."

HIT has modified the Al Khalid - a joint development between Pakistan and China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) - to be able to carry an extra 10 rounds inside the hull. "It cuts down the logistical tail," Gen Ghumman said. All new Al Khalids are manufactured with these modifications and older ones will be retrofitted as they come in for refurbishing, he noted.

The current Saudi MBT fleet consists of 315 General Dynamics Land Systems M1A2 Abrams, 450 M60A3s and 290 older Giat Industries AMX-30Ds. However, due to shortages of personnel, many of these MBTs are in storage and not used on a regular basis, defence sources have told JDW.

In recent years a number of countries have proposed the sale of new MBTs to Saudi Arabia, including Giat industries of France which has offered its Leclerc. However, given the much-reduced external threat to Saudi Arabia, some observers believe that the country will place greater emphasis on the procurement of internal security-type vehicles and equipment rather than MBTs.
 

mysterious

New Member
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

Looks like things are looking favourable for the airforce and the navy combined with the deal for Al-Khalids with Saudi Arabia. If all goes well, Pakistan's forces could very well find a new life being blown in to 'em. :smokingc:
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
I think, we are forgetting something here! This is a election year and these types of statements are likely, even John Kerry said good words about Pakistan. IMHO, I think, they just want Pakistani votes and they know very well what Pakistani weak spot is - F-16s. ;)

If we hear something about this after the elections, maybe I will change my point of view.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Good point Webmaster. All politicians all over the world make these promises just before the elections to woo the community.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

adsH said:
If approved, the Pakistani F-16s, would still not fill Pakistan's requirement for a high-tech fighter, ACM Saadat said, adding that the country is still looking at the Gripen, J-10, Mirage 2000 and additional F-16s. Sweden had been under pressure from the US not to allow the sale of the Gripen, but if the F-16 deal goes through, that may be resolved, ACM Saadat said. "What I am told is that they have an arrangement with Saab that whatever they supply to any country, they can't prevent Sweden from doing it. That is to say, if the F-16 and AMRAAM was to come to Pakistan, the Americans will not be able to object to Sweden doing the same thing," he said.

Pakistan is now waiting for Sweden to decide whether it will allow the sale and is also conducting testing of the J-10.
Hmmm. This is basicaly similar to what most of us have been saying. F-16s alone wont fill the PAF requirements. High-Tech Jet would still be needed. Looks like some of us n ACM have been speeking in a same tone. Get F-16s but as secondary front runner & get some thing like Gripens as Primary Front liner.

Anyways I pray & hope that both deals go through.

Now I have a questions;

1.With latest and state of the art specs on board F-16, how would it measure against SU-27, Su-30, Mirage2000?

2.Some ppl at F-16.net r also comparing F-16 with Rafale. They believe that F-16 block 50+ has a chance against Rafale. Any Comments?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here why dont we buy the F-16XL?



or may be F-16 50/52+





or may be this beauty Block 60 upgrade:



Looks like its in challange with Rafale.
 

adsH

New Member
the F-16 is a trusted proven Airframe with countless Improvements, very rugged and cheap to maintain and uptime is always good. (under the impression). the Rafael is new but it has those Spectra EW systems for partial Stealth i think i would say the Rafael is better in terms of technology and over all stealth, the F-16 has none of newer stealth features but it has all the toys the operators would wan't, it does have the new lowered RCS and probably if you can get the special paint.
I would say if your a user of F-16 don't swap over let the Airframe live in your inventory (F-16 is a proven combat tested and highly customizable upgradeable platform) that isn't going anywhere for a while.
if your a new user looking to go high tech and money is no object then go for the Rafael.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

i would be over the moon if pakistan got about 70+ F-16's and a few yaers later the gripen to fufill it's high tech spaces. that would be deadly

F-16 100+
gripen 60
mirage3/5 50
jf-17 150+
f-7 100+
 

Skygrasper

New Member
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

The PAF list is something like this;
  • 60 JAS-39 Gripen (3bn USD)
  • 60 F-16A/B MLU (1bn USD)
  • 200 JF-17 (4bn USD)
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

something like that anyway. as long there is a combo in there then i don't care. ;)
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

Skygrasper said:
The PAF list is something like this;
  • 60 JAS-39 Gripen (3bn USD)
  • 60 F-16A/B MLU (1bn USD)
  • 200 JF-17 (4bn USD)
LockHeed Martin is no longer producing block A/B. It is only producing block 50/52+ & few of Block 60. That means if PAF gets Block a/b, than we r buying second hand F-16 jets. A/B doesnt seem like a good idea to me. Those PAF pilots desereve to fly Block 50+ .. PAF should by them. With latest weapon system. I think block 50+ with best of specs, equipment n weapons can be leathal even to SU-27 n may be SU-30 if good radar system n bvr system is placed on board. Anyways Block 50+ would be good as it would be at par with MiG29, Jaguar & may be even Mirage2000 at the same time.
Hope the JAS39 Gripen Deal Strikes. There is some movement there, other wise PAF would have asked for more than 18 F-16s from USA. I hope these 18 F-16s r block 50+. Lock-Heed Deligation also recomanded block 50+ to ACM.
F-16s r good Jets & we want them no matter what ever front liners we get. We will milk F-16s for as long as we want, like we have done with our Mirage 3/5. As long as there is production going on in lockheed martin PAF will keep its F-16s flying. Just look at the pics I posted earlier. So much room for improvements.


Anyways adsH thanks for comparing F-16s with Rafale but my main question is still un answered. Here it is again

With latest and state of the art specs,equipment & weapons on board F-16, how would it measure against SU-27, Su-30, Mirage2000?
 

adsH

New Member
i think it would easily be a match for the Mirage 2000, i am not sure about the SU27 (don't know much about it ) i personally don't think much of russian technology. i think the F-16 block 60 could be compared with the Rafael, even tho rafael has the spectra Stealth system which is a pluss. the block 50+ is definitely around the mirage 2005 mk2. altho the 50+ radar would be inferior to the mirage but the AMRAAM's and the whole package would definitely be a match.
 
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