Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[highsea]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

With latest and state of the art specs,equipment & weapons on board F-16, how would it measure against SU-27, Su-30, Mirage2000?

Well, I'm no expert, so take this with a grain of salt. Ultimately it boils down to the pilot skills, weapons loadout and the relative EW capabilities. The F-16 might be a little stronger in the avionics and EW department.

All else being equal, the Sukhois are pure air-superiority AC, so head to head, I think they would have the edge over the multi-role F-16 or Mirage 2000. They are faster, fly higher, and are a more modern design. A closer comparison would probably be the SU-27/30 vs. F-15.

I think the F-16 vs. Mirage 2000 would be pretty evenly matched. The F-16 could probably out-turn the Mirage, at least at low altitude, but the Mirage may be a little faster at high altitude. Max take-off weights, weapons capacities, etc. are pretty equal. The Mirage has a greater combat radius, with it's bigger drop tanks. But the F-16 has more combat experience, so I would probably pick it over the Mirage.

-CM

 

[adsH]

F-16 for me too, simply a better all-rounded machine.

 

[Libyan]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

Nope sorry.


why dont you buy the f-16xl because its not for sale.

why dont you buy the block 60 ? because you cant afford it.

why dont you muy the mirage 2000-5/9 the Brazilians were offered full tech transfer and the rights to sell the aircraft for a paltry 3 billion they couldnt afford it and neither can Pakistan.


why dont you buy the gripen?

because the gripens key areas are made in the us , the us is still smarting from the pakistani decision to send the f-16 to china to be evaluated.


furthermore Pakistans needs will not be met by the gripen, the Gripen is a short range aircraft only.


how will a gripen do against a su-27/30 simple the su-27/30 will detect the aircraft from some 30-40 miles more than the gripen is aware of and will fire a missle against it.


while the gripen aircraft is trying to break missile lock and burning fuel the su-27 will reach its killing range some 20-30 miles out and will then fire a 2nd type of missle that either destroys the aircraft or if not from 300-ft -8 miles out the su-27 cannot be defeated!

 

[adsH]

Dude Paf would be offered clearance to Purchase 18 and only 18 of the new generation Fighters. Hopefully.
PAF cannot afford the Block 60 they would definitely go for the block 50 it might be a customized version to bring it to the same specs as the other PAF MLU'ed vipers. it might have new EW system one PAF develops. so it might be called something other than a Block 50. the mirages are too expensive to induct since its logistical and its training regimes would cost alot. Paf wants F-16 because it currently has everything in place, so they would be adding to capability without significant cost. apparently PAF has had a grippen and rafael in pakistan to assess the capability, i doubt PAF would now think of getting the Mirages. i think its definitely the Grippens once the F-16 and the AMRAAM are cleared for pakistan, the Grippens would be released too.

the reason why PAF is not going for french Ac is because they have long term procurement and development programe that has to be indiginous, buyin TOT from the french would divert resources from projects like JF-17 where PAF has already invested too much.

they are building there new generation JF-17 and they might expand production to J-10, all PAF's own fighters would definitely be hybrids of Pakistani/French/chinese technology.

 

[The Watcher]

A closer comparison would probably be the SU-27/30 vs. F-15.

F-15 already lost to Su-30s during war games. So no comparison there.

 

[adsH]

F-15c lost against the Su30 i don't they had the best flying it too.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

Nope sorry.


why dont you buy the f-16xl because its not for sale.

why dont you buy the block 60 ? because you cant afford it.

Libyan judging by the pics I posted, when I said why dnt we buy F-16XL or Block 60 every one knws I was kidding n being a bit sarcastic. F-16XL is not even for USAF. Its a part of experiment LockHeed Martin conducts with F-16 just to make it jump from one Generation to another & come to a point where F-16 could turn into a different Jet. They do experiments with F-16s all the time.
Block 60 can be bought regardless if we can afford it or not, this can be done on loan basis but judging by the Pak govt's policy pay off all the debts & take as low of loan as possible PAF will side line it & govt will reject it.
LockHeed is no longer producing A/B so if PAF is buying 18 new first hand jets they r all block 50+ which will be upgraded with different specs n equipment. So it will change the entire Jet n only than it could be compared to any of IAF jets.
There is no point in buying A/B while we r makin JF-17 tht would be some thing similar to A/B.

Watcher u must take in account that it was F-15C put up against SU-30 & 27. SU-27 I dont think defeated F-15C, it was SU-30. USAF should have used F-15D. Besides it was a war game. If USAF goes into war against IAF than we knw which will come out with victory in the skies. F-14 n F-18 should also have battled SU-30.

adsH cant a better long range radar be placed on board F-16 along with some technology tht could make F-16 stealthy. If such upgrade can take place than PAF should experiment with some of its F-16s with the help of Lock Heed Martin.

 

[adsH]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

There is no point in buying A/B while we r makin JF-17 tht would be some thing similar to A/B.

PAF has said that the JF-17 would be equal or slightly less advance to the MLU'ed Belgium F-16 that are for sale.

Watcher u must take in account that it was F-15C put up against SU-30 & 27. SU-27 I dont think defeated F-15C, it was SU-30. USAF should have used F-15D. Besides it was a war game. If USAF goes into war against IAF than we knw which will come out with victory in the skies. F-14 n F-18 should also have battled SU-30.

probably USAF's F-16 and F-15 and the raptors might be too in the attack from Pakistan side ( if it were to happen).

adsH cant a better long range radar be placed on board F-16 along with some technology tht could make F-16 stealthy. If such upgrade can take place than PAF should experiment with some of its F-16s with the help of Lock Heed Martin.

the Blcok 60 has a good Radar, i am not sure about the stealth features but it has the IRST system, so its stealthy in search and tracking, it might have RAM coating (i think) (might have ) (PAF has access to RAM Coating) and the RCS is definitely lowered. its cost effective for what it would be used for.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

So coming to conclusion. Is it good Idea for PAF to buy F-16s? If yes why? What good would it do against IAF?

 

[highsea]

F-15 already lost to Su-30s during war games. So no comparison there.

adsH is correct, it was F-15C's against the SU-30's in the excersizes with the IAF. Also, they were head-to-head matchups without any other supporting systems, which is not the way the USAF operates in real life. gf has commented pretty extensively on this in another thread.

Without discounting the IAF, who got very high marks during both the excersizes in India and the Cooperative Cope Thunder games this year, there are political ramifications to the US whenever we engage in DACT excersizes that can overshadow, or at least influence the results. So I wouldn't necessarily bet the farm based on the outcome of wargames.

The Generals have a certain need to demonstrate to Congress the importance of new systems. Winning all of our simulation excersizes wouldn't do much to convince Congress that we need new AC like the F22 and JSF.

As far as real world encounters, the F-15 has an overall record of 101 wins and 0 losses in combat. They were responsible for 34 of the 37 AC shot down in Iraq in 1991, and they shot down 4 Mig-29's in the Balkans. It is by no means an impotent platform.

Back to the topic. The PAF should get the F-16's if they can. They already have the support infrastructure in place so the F-16 would be much easier to put in service than the other options.

As far as the IAF goes, the F-16 is a pretty even matchup for the Jaguars, but don't throw them up against the SU-30's unless you have AIM-120's and you can shoot and scoot before the SU-30 sees you.

I do think the F-16 (block 60, anyway) has better a radar and avionics package, so it wouldn't be too wise for the IAF to think there was no threat, but if the Su-30 gets in close to the F-16, the Viper is probably toast.

-CM

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

well i just agree with AMC. he said that as well as the F-16's we would like to get BETTER high tech aircraft. this is a good idea because the jf-17 and f-16 can be used in the back lines whilst the high tech fighter we get would lead.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

So all u saying high sea is that PAF also needs an air superiorority Jet which could possibly be in form of F-15 & F-18 to countr IAF Su-30. These Jets should only be used for air to air combat.

Hack I would buy F-18 n F-15s any time of the day if I was the ACM. But PAF doesnt ve the finance for such a jet.

Ur right abt the politices involved in the Indo-US war games. Other wise I dnt think US could give away its air superiorority status to some Russian Jet.

Anyways High Sea do u think USA will agree on selling Pakistan F-15s. I mean u ppl have already got F-22 coming out & will ground F-15s some day. So why not sell some of them to us along with some F-18s. This will gove PAF edge over IAF Su-30 n Su-27 while F-16s could take care of MiG-29, Jaguars, Mirage2000-5 & other IAF jets.
JF-17 will take care of LCA.
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Anyways the other day PAF members with Chinese Deligatons were demonstrating a Chinese made virtual Flight battle simulator on TV. The sim contained all Chinese Jets & when it was demonstrated the sim showed a Chinese AC battleing F-16. Now I think the whole Pak, China F-16 thing secret might lay here. Pak might have shared F-16 with China to make a
F-16 for this sim, tht is if Pak shared it with China. Other wise I do take PAF ACMs word tht Pak did not share the Jet.

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[adsH]

but if the Su-30 gets in close to the F-16, the Viper is probably toast.

-CM

controversial issue High sea, the SU-30mki has some good toys on bord it, but in close combat i would definitely say PAF f-16 would win if they are block 60, PAF puts highly experienced and proven Wing commissioned pilots on bord them, they are the best the PAF has. thats the reason why not a single F-16 has ever been shot down in the conflict with IAF. IAF has recently been able to get a lock on the Vipers. the Pilot quality is absolutely mint, i would say the SU-30 mki is better off further away then coming up close and engaging PAF vipers in there territory. A dog fight is what PAF is best at!! as i have said before IAF should not feer the platform but the people that fly them.

this intensive training (high quality pilots) trend is something that can be found in IDAF too they are a small Nation with limited resources surrounded by an enemy much larger in resources and Numbers, the only thing you can beat your enemy at is quality.

If we'r going to debate the EW systems on the SU-30 mki then yeah they might have an edge over PAF F-16 EW systems but there is no way that anyone can prove it, the only way we can see which platform would out do the other is to see them in Battle.

 

[highsea]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

adsH, you may very well be right. I think I mentioned in my first post on this thread that it really boils down to the pilots and relative capabilities of the EW suites.

I wasn't comparing the current PAF F-16 EW suite to the SU-30, but rather the block 60. I think the block 60 is superior, but the SU-30 EW is clearly superior to F-16 A/B. This is why I think the Block 60 has the edge at a distance. The Block 60 should be able to see the Su-30 first, and get off an AIM-120. Once they close to within 20 KM or so, I give the edge to the Sukhoi, because now he has a very good picture of the Viper.

In close in combat, the SU-30 can outclimb the F-16, and has a higher ceiling. Altitude is everything in a dogfight, and once the SU is above the F-16, he has the advantage. The Viper can out-turn the Sukhoi, but the contest for altitude does not involve maneuvers, just raw power.

Also, my response is predicated on the assumption that we are talking a direct one-on-one engagement with pilots of equal skill. No AWACS support, data linking, etc. Just the relative capabilities of the AC in question. Of course, this is not how it would happen in a real world situation. Fighters don't go out alone, and not all pilots are created equal.

-CM

 

[highsea]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

Anyways High Sea do u think USA will agree on selling Pakistan F-15s. I mean u ppl have already got F-22 coming out & will ground F-15s some day. So why not sell some of them to us along with some F-18s. This will gove PAF edge over IAF Su-30 n Su-27 while F-16s could take care of MiG-29, Jaguars, Mirage2000-5 & other IAF jets.
JF-17 will take care of LCA.

F-15 E/F will stay in production until at least 2008, but I would be very surprised if Congress gave approval to sell F-15's to Pakistan. This is mainly due to our policy on introducing new technology in non-NATO countries.

Plus, at $75 Mil a pop, they're not exactly a cheap date. I think PAF would be better served to look at the EF-2000 if they wanted an AC of that class. It supports all of the NATO armament that the F-16 does, and it's less expensive (though not cheap!). Also, it would match up well with the SU-30's, imo.

Having said that, if Pak was somehow able to get approval to buy EF-2000's the US would probably consider selling F-15's! It's our policy not to introduce a new capability in a country that they cannot get somewhere else. Sounds funny, but that's how it works. Congress wouldn't approve the sale unless Pak was already going to get something equivalent from somewhere else.

But the political situation being what it is, I think it's more likely that the US would try to block the introduction of either AC. Sorry, man. There are still many members in Congress who are concerned about the tech making it's way to China. Even the F-16 deal will not be easy.

-CM

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

PAF pilots have flown saudi f-15's and they have said that it is a very good platform. . i personnally preferr the f-16 though.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

hey guys. is it true that UAE have the best F-16's. If yes then is there any chance pakistan can get hold of them : ?

 

[highsea]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

f-16.net has some great pictures of the UAE's new block 60's. I would link, but it's against forum rules. But they are worth checking out, go to the picture gallery.

-CM

 

[webmaster]

but it's against forum rules

Against their forum rules or our?

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan's air chief says U.S. may sell it F-16s

hey guys. is it true that UAE have the best F-16's. If yes then is there any chance pakistan can get hold of them : ?

Yes UAE F-16s r quite good. N the only way u can get them is to go to war with India. In 71 war many Arab countries sent their Jets to Pakistan. Quite a number of F-5 were sent to Pakistan by friendly countries but were not used cause the war ended pretty quickly. But I doubt tht any thing like that would happen judging by the geo political situation n the world n specialy in Mid East. Secondly m not sure if UAE is willing to sell it F-16s, even if it is v would need permission from u knw who.