Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]
- Thread starter Mukesh Patel
- Start date
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
Well my dear friend , Cobra Style is used to dogged Missiles and planes on tail and then came behind.
Take seen where F22 is on behind Su27 and syddenly SU37 halts on air and F22 due to speed moved ahead of Su37 and now SU37 on F22 tail ,, man manuvers are the real things which comes handy in DOG fight.
Like this thier many things which SU37 can perform only ,, and If you dont believe ,, as nay USAF personnel , he will tell you about SU 37 capability.
In wepon design no one can beat Russian , See they brough down american Spy plane U2 with SAM , which USA denied ot existance before that, they Build MIG 27 which no missile or plane can catch. build Silent kilo ( black hole subs) . NO one can beat russian in wepons capability.
Moreover , these SU30 MKI will also have Stealth features as Eroplane or raflal have. It is intergrated with Isreali electronic warefare system , indian software , french radar the best possible combination one can get.
Well my dear friend , Cobra Style is used to dogged Missiles and planes on tail and then came behind.
Take seen where F22 is on behind Su27 and syddenly SU37 halts on air and F22 due to speed moved ahead of Su37 and now SU37 on F22 tail ,, man manuvers are the real things which comes handy in DOG fight.
Like this thier many things which SU37 can perform only ,, and If you dont believe ,, as nay USAF personnel , he will tell you about SU 37 capability.
In wepon design no one can beat Russian , See they brough down american Spy plane U2 with SAM , which USA denied ot existance before that, they Build MIG 27 which no missile or plane can catch. build Silent kilo ( black hole subs) . NO one can beat russian in wepons capability.
Moreover , these SU30 MKI will also have Stealth features as Eroplane or raflal have. It is intergrated with Isreali electronic warefare system , indian software , french radar the best possible combination one can get.
Su37, please stick to the topic (Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ???? and not capabilities of Russian planes that india might get). Also, the reply that you quoted does not talk about su-37 but of su35.
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Also, please make sure "Disable BBCode in this post" this option is NOT clicked when you reply to a topic. BBCODEs are your friend, they make your replies look good and well formatted.
THANK YOU
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
Aside from disagreeing with your fantasy SU-37 the point is moot since this aircraft is not in service. Your really digging if a U2 shootdown 41 years ago is the best you can do to prove Russian supremecy in weapons capabilities. Maybe you would be happiest if the evil American defense industry wasn't cranking out the best systems in the world on a massive scale but they are and the fact that your comparing an aircraft that hasn't even entered production with those that have been in service for 30 years proves that point. It's taken the Russian 30 years to come up with something that poses a serious threat to F-15?
F-16 would be an ideal aircraft for PAF, it is small, relatively inexpensive and superior to anything they would most likely come up against in the forseeable future. Political considerations obviously make this to more of a wish at the moment but you never know.
Aside from disagreeing with your fantasy SU-37 the point is moot since this aircraft is not in service. Your really digging if a U2 shootdown 41 years ago is the best you can do to prove Russian supremecy in weapons capabilities. Maybe you would be happiest if the evil American defense industry wasn't cranking out the best systems in the world on a massive scale but they are and the fact that your comparing an aircraft that hasn't even entered production with those that have been in service for 30 years proves that point. It's taken the Russian 30 years to come up with something that poses a serious threat to F-15?
F-16 would be an ideal aircraft for PAF, it is small, relatively inexpensive and superior to anything they would most likely come up against in the forseeable future. Political considerations obviously make this to more of a wish at the moment but you never know.
Londo Molari
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
Bah, we've given up on the F-16. Its been dangled in front of us 4 times now.
Self-reliance is the best way to go, even though it seems unrealistic based on Pakistan's current condition... but China will teach us how to manufacture 90% of the JF-17... so that should help our industry...
Bah, we've given up on the F-16. Its been dangled in front of us 4 times now.
Self-reliance is the best way to go, even though it seems unrealistic based on Pakistan's current condition... but China will teach us how to manufacture 90% of the JF-17... so that should help our industry...
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
Guys I agree. Pakistan has been a steadfast and visible supporter of the UN missions throughout the world, it really is a shame that you don't get more support from US, or any of the other UN members that could help. You are quite correct that producing your own aircraft would be the best option feasible or not. What about Mig 29?
Guys I agree. Pakistan has been a steadfast and visible supporter of the UN missions throughout the world, it really is a shame that you don't get more support from US, or any of the other UN members that could help. You are quite correct that producing your own aircraft would be the best option feasible or not. What about Mig 29?
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/ques.htm
Mig-29??? from whom? and I think that Mig-29 does not fit the requirements for PAF.
I wish Pakistan and India solve the Kashmir issue according to the United Nations resolutions and get this stupid childish game of one upmanship over with.
Pakistan is the largest contributor of troops to the U.N. missions in the world.Gremlin29 said:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/ques.htm
Mig-29??? from whom? and I think that Mig-29 does not fit the requirements for PAF.
I wish Pakistan and India solve the Kashmir issue according to the United Nations resolutions and get this stupid childish game of one upmanship over with.
Londo Molari
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
Mig-29 would need Russian permission, which is a NO-NO, since India is Russia's biggest customer. So no Migs or Sukhois.
Mig-29 would need Russian permission, which is a NO-NO, since India is Russia's biggest customer. So no Migs or Sukhois.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
hello!
i am basically a medical student but i am very intersted in aircarfts.
so as paf .comming to the topic i think that pakistan should try to get french made raphale and chinese su27uk (J11) or it can be the upgradation of JF 17 thunder bolt its engines avionics etc:~~~~~~ SO IT CAN BE A REAL GOOD AND DIFFICULT CHOICE to make i think paf marshals will do there best.
allah hafiz
Rashid Asghar
hello!
i am basically a medical student but i am very intersted in aircarfts.
so as paf .comming to the topic i think that pakistan should try to get french made raphale and chinese su27uk (J11) or it can be the upgradation of JF 17 thunder bolt its engines avionics etc:~~~~~~ SO IT CAN BE A REAL GOOD AND DIFFICULT CHOICE to make i think paf marshals will do there best.
allah hafiz
Rashid Asghar
All we can get from the russians is civil aircraft built by tupolev which raises the point wether russia wud be willing 2 sell us non-military aircraft such as those for recon and martime role.
PS abt the J-11. Id thought abt inducting it along with the J-10 as they wud make a good combination but India already has its version the Su-30 and its difficult 2 diffrentiate between the 2 so well be getting friendly fire a lot.
PS abt the J-11. Id thought abt inducting it along with the J-10 as they wud make a good combination but India already has its version the Su-30 and its difficult 2 diffrentiate between the 2 so well be getting friendly fire a lot.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
Well first Admistrater , thanks
and then i have doubt wheather r u Nutral or not ? i am just replying to the questions which are posted before my writing and you single hand picked me ...
I dont; think you seen an artical about UN role ,,,, and what if i replyed to that topic also by Germlin29 .... I don;t see any warning hanging around ...... i can also answer that but i am not , anyway ,....well i have begin the feeling that this is pro group and i don't have the habit of bangging my head against walls ,,,,
I also can join the another group which i think is the best and netural and also have the some pro and counter point with technical and writtings ... and also agree with open minds ,
thanks ,,
Well first Admistrater , thanks
and then i have doubt wheather r u Nutral or not ? i am just replying to the questions which are posted before my writing and you single hand picked me ...
I dont; think you seen an artical about UN role ,,,, and what if i replyed to that topic also by Germlin29 .... I don;t see any warning hanging around ...... i can also answer that but i am not , anyway ,....well i have begin the feeling that this is pro group and i don't have the habit of bangging my head against walls ,,,,
I also can join the another group which i think is the best and netural and also have the some pro and counter point with technical and writtings ... and also agree with open minds ,
thanks ,,
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
I think Pakistan should be opting for French aircraft, provided they will sell them. Taiwan seems extremely happy with it's Mirage 2000-5's rating them more highly than F16's, which incidently have never been defeated in Air combat, much like the F14, F15 and F18. The Rafale may be expensive but I believe it would offer Pakistan the greatest Air Combat capability that they could possibly acquire. Plus additional orders of Rafale, will bring the price down. If the US won't sell it's aircraft to Pakistan, then they'd be better off re-investing in a combined French/Chinese supplied fleet. This could work along the lines of the United States system of "hi-Lo" aircraft combinations, ie: high capability aircraft - F15/F22 combined in mission packages with lower capability aircraft F16/JSF. Except in Pakistan's case it would be Rafale providing Hi-end capability and J10 or similar providing the lo-end capability. This would allow Pakistan (IMHO) to maintain a qualitative edge over India with the Rafale, and at least provide a reasonable quantative ratio with the J10.
The sale of their current F16's to a 3rd party could also help pay for additional aircraft. Pakistan also desperately needs an AWACS and air to air refuelling capability, in my opinion. These 2 capabilities are essential in modern warfare and provide a very valuable "force multiplying" capability. The only problem with French aircraft, is they reserve the right to stop supporting the aircraft if a country uses them in a war or in a manner the French don't agree with. This was one of the reasons Australia purchaed FA/18's when we replaced our Mirages. America just wants the dollars, damn capitalists...
I think Pakistan should be opting for French aircraft, provided they will sell them. Taiwan seems extremely happy with it's Mirage 2000-5's rating them more highly than F16's, which incidently have never been defeated in Air combat, much like the F14, F15 and F18. The Rafale may be expensive but I believe it would offer Pakistan the greatest Air Combat capability that they could possibly acquire. Plus additional orders of Rafale, will bring the price down. If the US won't sell it's aircraft to Pakistan, then they'd be better off re-investing in a combined French/Chinese supplied fleet. This could work along the lines of the United States system of "hi-Lo" aircraft combinations, ie: high capability aircraft - F15/F22 combined in mission packages with lower capability aircraft F16/JSF. Except in Pakistan's case it would be Rafale providing Hi-end capability and J10 or similar providing the lo-end capability. This would allow Pakistan (IMHO) to maintain a qualitative edge over India with the Rafale, and at least provide a reasonable quantative ratio with the J10.
The sale of their current F16's to a 3rd party could also help pay for additional aircraft. Pakistan also desperately needs an AWACS and air to air refuelling capability, in my opinion. These 2 capabilities are essential in modern warfare and provide a very valuable "force multiplying" capability. The only problem with French aircraft, is they reserve the right to stop supporting the aircraft if a country uses them in a war or in a manner the French don't agree with. This was one of the reasons Australia purchaed FA/18's when we replaced our Mirages. America just wants the dollars, damn capitalists...
Revival_786
New Member
Ok, I love this post. Such excellent insights. Very, very interesting stuff! :smokingc:
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
My suggestions:
Pakistan needs an AWACs capability. If you cannot see your airspace without realtime satellites, then you need real time area interrogation. Only an AWACs will give you that.
Once you can see your airspace then you need to tobe able to secure it against the known threats:
Known Threats
Capable 4th generation aircraft in substantial numbers
That means that you have to neutralise the advantage. That means that you need to have substantial EAD in place.
That also restricts your purchasing capability to France and China. technically I would rate French technology substantially better than Chinese. So French SAMs over rebuilt Russian technology anyday. Or French EW systems inegtrated into Russian fire control systems and EAD systems
If you like the F16 then think about trying a re-engine. French Engines as they are robust, reliable and available.
If you can't get F16's (and in the current climate that is not necessarily so), then you should buy Rafales.
Rafale's will provide a sophisticated capability and let you have lesser capable aircraft like J7's etc to manage the lower air space threats.
I have an aversion to Chinese jets as they are not of the same build quality - it is not quantity that counts, its is quality, capability and pilot training. There is no point in buying a cheap 3rd generation fighter if it has no hope of lasting in an "aviation knife fight". Unless you have the right electronics, the right flight systems, the right weapons matched to the threat, then all you have is a plane that is a target for another nations fighter pilots and SEA systems.
The problem with the French is as AussieDigger said, they can turn off parts if they want. You have already experienced this to some extent with the US.
In the current climate, the french are not going to be difficult, they need to sell Rafales as no one else has bought the aircraft and they want to recover their costs. It would also make integration of air systems into Pakistans SAM systems, current EW capability an easier fit.
Everyone gets excited about russian aircraft and forgets that they have lousy uptime. It doesn't matter if it is cheaper if you are going to spend twice as much (actually more) time on the ground maintaining it. If its on the ground, then you are losing sortie times. When your airforce is smaller, it will work harder and that means you will have higher down times.
The F7's, F10's will suffer from the build mentality mindset that was responsible for their development in the first place.
You can't build a decent air force by buying cheap and hoping that having more aircraft in the air will give you leverage.
Someone in the airforce actually needs to design an integrated solution for the entire force structure.
My suggestions:
Pakistan needs an AWACs capability. If you cannot see your airspace without realtime satellites, then you need real time area interrogation. Only an AWACs will give you that.
Once you can see your airspace then you need to tobe able to secure it against the known threats:
Known Threats
Capable 4th generation aircraft in substantial numbers
That means that you have to neutralise the advantage. That means that you need to have substantial EAD in place.
That also restricts your purchasing capability to France and China. technically I would rate French technology substantially better than Chinese. So French SAMs over rebuilt Russian technology anyday. Or French EW systems inegtrated into Russian fire control systems and EAD systems
If you like the F16 then think about trying a re-engine. French Engines as they are robust, reliable and available.
If you can't get F16's (and in the current climate that is not necessarily so), then you should buy Rafales.
Rafale's will provide a sophisticated capability and let you have lesser capable aircraft like J7's etc to manage the lower air space threats.
I have an aversion to Chinese jets as they are not of the same build quality - it is not quantity that counts, its is quality, capability and pilot training. There is no point in buying a cheap 3rd generation fighter if it has no hope of lasting in an "aviation knife fight". Unless you have the right electronics, the right flight systems, the right weapons matched to the threat, then all you have is a plane that is a target for another nations fighter pilots and SEA systems.
The problem with the French is as AussieDigger said, they can turn off parts if they want. You have already experienced this to some extent with the US.
In the current climate, the french are not going to be difficult, they need to sell Rafales as no one else has bought the aircraft and they want to recover their costs. It would also make integration of air systems into Pakistans SAM systems, current EW capability an easier fit.
Everyone gets excited about russian aircraft and forgets that they have lousy uptime. It doesn't matter if it is cheaper if you are going to spend twice as much (actually more) time on the ground maintaining it. If its on the ground, then you are losing sortie times. When your airforce is smaller, it will work harder and that means you will have higher down times.
The F7's, F10's will suffer from the build mentality mindset that was responsible for their development in the first place.
You can't build a decent air force by buying cheap and hoping that having more aircraft in the air will give you leverage.
Someone in the airforce actually needs to design an integrated solution for the entire force structure.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
I agree with u. AWACS will help PAF a lot.
Yes, rafale is the best option to PAF. But the current climate is also indicating that PAF is more interested in Eurofighter.
I dont think so. Sanctions were imposed over Pakistan by US, Britain and Sweden (maybe more) but France was selling us mirages. Also Pakistan has a policy of keeping a minimum detterent so 25 - 35 Rafales will be enough for PAF.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????
If there were no restrictions then I would prefer the Eurofighter. It has more combat hours and is flown by more nations - it is a little more tested than the Rafale.
Pakistan does need to have an integrated EAD system in place though. Otherwise all of your air force jets become easier targets.
Oqaab , the French ended up terminating supplies of the Exocet to the Argentinians. At one stage the issue of the Rose Mirages being sold was due to the French being reticent. However, if you are confident.
If there were no restrictions then I would prefer the Eurofighter. It has more combat hours and is flown by more nations - it is a little more tested than the Rafale.
Pakistan does need to have an integrated EAD system in place though. Otherwise all of your air force jets become easier targets.
Revival_786
New Member
What's EAD?