Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Oqaab, Australia has always had excellent relations with France and often purchases military equipment from them. Unfortunately Australia decided that it needed to participate in the Vietnam War. France opposed this (ironic really when they fought their own war there about 10 years ealier, but anyway...) and refused to support the deployment of Royal Australian Air Force Mirages with spare parts, weapons etc, much in the same manner that they refused to supply Argentina with Exocet missiles, during the Falklands War. France WILL supply anyone with high quality weapons, however if you conduct military action France disapproves of, well I hope you've stocked up on weapons and spare parts etc first, cause you won't get it when you need it otherwise. I just wonder why Australia has now signed up for the Eurocopter Tiger. They've never bought anything French since the Vietnam War. Does anyone think the French would have supported an Australia deployment of Tigers to the Iraq war earlier this year if we'd had them in service? I think not...

 

[Awang se]

I think Pakistan should try to join venture with russian in the development of SU-37 Advance Flanker. and then Pakistan has a right to some of the aircraft. maybe build it under licence.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think the Russians have an issue over Pakistans role with the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan. There are some in the Russian military who I imagine would still hold some animosity to what they saw as Pakistans role in that theatre.

The other issue is the relationship they have with India, their longest serving and most committed customer. Seeing that the Indians are assisting the in the development of the SU3x series, I doubt that it would happen.

 

[Londo Molari]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Russia refuses to have any high-level military co-operation with Pakistan, due to Indian pressure. India is their second biggest customer, and bigger than Pakistan can ever be. So they chose India over Pakistan. Logical.

They do offer Pakistan old and out-dated helicopters form time to time.

 

[Awang se]

That answer why my country got a double downgraded version of the Adder missile. I guess they still held all Muslim nation responsible for their defeat.

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Oqaab, Australia has always had excellent relations with France and often purchases military equipment from them. Unfortunately Australia decided that it needed to participate in the Vietnam War. France opposed this (ironic really when they fought their own war there about 10 years ealier, but anyway...) and refused to support the deployment of Royal Australian Air Force Mirages with spare parts, weapons etc, much in the same manner that they refused to supply Argentina with Exocet missiles, during the Falklands War. France WILL supply anyone with high quality weapons, however if you conduct military action France disapproves of, well I hope you've stocked up on weapons and spare parts etc first, cause you won't get it when you need it otherwise. I just wonder why Australia has now signed up for the Eurocopter Tiger. They've never bought anything French since the Vietnam War. Does anyone think the French would have supported an Australia deployment of Tigers to the Iraq war earlier this year if we'd had them in service? I think not...

Why are u ppl giving me examples of Australia and Argentina. French are taking the advantage of arms-race and hence they are neutral in Indo-Pak tensions. Did they block any military sales to Pakistan in 2002 when the two countries were near a war ????

 

[Londo Molari]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

All weapon suppliers block sales when you do something that goes against them, thats pretty logical.

- France blocks it if you have a war which they dissapprove of, or if you buy Boeing 747s instead of Airbuses.
- Russia blocks if you are an enemy of its main customer
- China blocks if you.... well it doesn't seem like anything upsets China.
- The U.S. blocks if you are a muslim country not under their control.

 

[webmaster]

China blocks if you do not support them on Taiwan issue. :lol

 

[corsair7772]

Maybe we shud try the UK, our old friends....

 

[The Watcher]

UK? They have hawks and tornados. :lolol

Eurofighter does seem pretty good but is expensive.

Best bet is France (rafale/mirages-2000-9 or wait on China. If french are willing to ToT for mirages or rafales, pakistan should take it.

How about jas gripen 39???

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Oqaab, Why are u ppl giving me examples of Australia and Argentina. French are taking the advantage of arms-race and hence they are neutral in Indo-Pak tensions. Did they block any military sales to Pakistan in 2002 when the two countries were near a war ????

Oqaab, I'm only using these examples as they are ones that I am familiar with.

 

[shamsi]

UK? They have hawks and tornados. :lolol

Eurofighter does seem pretty good but is expensive.

Best bet is France (rafale/mirages-2000-9 or wait on China. If french are willing to ToT for mirages or rafales, pakistan should take it.

How about jas gripen 39???

I rather have Pakistan a better ESM integrated C4I, CnC, with Medium and High alt SAM network, and a well trained medium tech aircraft with BVR capability. What's the use of hitech aircraft when they catch dust in bunkers in Sarghoda, or we have to beg or smuggle common airframe and engine parts?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I rather have Pakistan a better ESM integrated C4I, CnC, with Medium and High alt SAM network, and a well trained medium tech aircraft with BVR capability. What's the use of hitech aircraft when they catch dust in bunkers in Sarghoda, or we have to beg or smuggle common airframe and engine parts?

Exactly. If a military persists in matching an opfor's capability, then all that happens is that you become caught up in a purchasing war of platform attrition.

Systems need to be bought to contend with the threat. It is a lesson that Russia learnt far too late with the US.

IF the opfor has mastery of the sky, then you need to neutralise it with a cheaper threat.

Its a lot easier to counter aircraft with an air defence system where 1 SAM is a 50th of the cost of the aircraft - and you don't lose pilots.
At some stage you need to rise above the aircraft and have an EW and C4i infrastructure that lets you manage things in virtual environments.

Otherwise you'll always be the wicket keeper and not the bowler.
The wicket keeper never sees the eyes of the batter get bbigger and whiter with anticipation as the ball comes towards him at 160kph. The bowler OTH does and that makes him bolder.

 

[ahussains]

Well guys if this is in my hands I will go For the Swedish Grripen, its almost similar to Russians and also have perfromance similarity to US planes and o think they have good relations with Pakistan tooo ... so its easy to get Swidish Grripen when any one is not giving any thing to you...

 

[suleman]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

As far as my knowledge is regarding this field after meeting and discussing this thing with some PAF senior official at Kamra,PAF is not interested in
j-10 of china unless they are left with no other option.This maybe a bit shocking for u guys as j-10 seems to be a very good option but PAF is not stisfied with it.Its logical that when they get j-10 then why to invest in JF-17.The only reason is time as j-10 will be flying after few years, but countries make such big investments with proper plans not just for few years.JF-17 is the future main striker of PAF and u will see many improvements in that.According to official PAF invested in China to aquire the basic technology and know how and second is to produce aircraft at low prices in china.PAF have no plans to shift the industry here in Pakistan.Rather they will upgrade this fighter here in Pakistan and introduse best available avionics and other things available.These maybe westren and then made here in Pakistan.Also PAF will constantly work to upgrade this fighter and u will see many versions of this fighter.PAF will save money in its production and then spend money to give it final touch and add quality to it.This fighter will be very effective against IAF very soon.

Second is that PAF is interested in second hand westren fighters rather then new chineese fighters due to quality reasons.First option is to upgrade current F-16 fleet by the help of USA and complete increase their number till 40.Second option is France which offered PAF complete plant of Mirage and PAF seriously considering it but may not buy it as its too costly ans secondly it depends how many of them can we sale in market after meeting our requirements.This is most imp thing as many contries wont let PAF sell them in market easily and this expansive machinery will be of no use after PAF fulfill its requirements.But if no other option then maybe they consider this too.

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Actually those ppl who are aware of this F-16 issue are busy spreading rumours regarding J-10s to Pakistan. The only western fighter PAF negotiated for was Mirage 2000-5 (some say mk-2 version) and France agreed to sell these aircraft but now, it is difficult for PAF to decide whether go for Mirage or Eurofighter.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

If Pakistan had the choice between Eurofighter and a Mirage variant and cost was not an issue, they would be mad not to select the Eurofighter. It seems like it will be the most capable next generation fighter besides the F22. A sizeable Eurofighter deterrent backed up by quality ground based air defences linked to a quality C4I system, and large numbers of cheaper fighters (JF -17 or whatever) would definitely give India pause for concern.

 

[yutong chen]

Eurofighter Typhoon would be the best, if PAF can get some

 

[umair]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

All of u guys are right.PAF is going for either Eurofighter,F/A-18E/F(if Uncle allows it) Mirage2k5 or Rafale.According to my sources PAF is trying for a two pronged 4 gen fighter force.One a western platform to be inducted in 50-<100 numbers.Second the J-10 in 100+ numbers once it's glitches are worked out(the ws-10 etc).Also the JF-17 fighter's avionics contractor ARMTECH in Pakistan told my source that the JF-17 will be a real surprise package in terms of advanced avionics capability.(a hint was given by my uncle 4.2-4.3 gen).But right now as Suleman said the emphasis is on developin and further strengthening our ccc, gci and ecm/esm capability.Of which AWACS acquisition is a major priority.So I'd give atleast 2 more years untill a 4.5 gen+ fighter is inducted.
P.S don't discount our present fighters as well.They like the JF-17 are surprise packages in terms of avionics capability. :smokingc:

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

All of u guys are right.PAF is going for either Eurofighter,F/A-18E/F(if Uncle allows it) Mirage2k5 or Rafale.According to my sources PAF is trying for a two pronged 4 gen fighter force.One a western platform to be inducted in 50-<100 numbers.Second the J-10 in 100+ numbers once it's glitches are worked out(the ws-10 etc).Also the JF-17 fighter's avionics contractor ARMTECH in Pakistan told my source that the JF-17 will be a real surprise package in terms of advanced avionics capability.(a hint was given by my uncle 4.2-4.3 gen).But right now as Suleman said the emphasis is on developin and further strengthening our ccc, gci and ecm/esm capability.Of which AWACS acquisition is a major priority.So I'd give atleast 2 more years untill a 4.5 gen+ fighter is inducted.
P.S don't discount our present fighters as well.They like the JF-17 are surprise packages in terms of avionics capability. :smokingc:

The key is to have a balanced force. if logistically it makes sense, then splitting the offensive capability of the "sharp end" is worthwhile. Pakistan is deficient in AWAC's, C4i and EWC. IMHO there is a critical need to address that and come up with a coherent integrated force solution.

There is more benefit in sacrificing some of your JF17 fighter purchases for a capable AWAC's and EAD system. AWACs enables you to see ahead and to allocate appropriate resources to resond to the threat, otherwise you are churning and burning fuel in a CAP role which is not really productive.