Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[corsair7772]

crap man. why cant you plz take a hint and take the time ratio in as well. Were only trying to get in the J-11 for a couple of years so we can hold out till our inventory is at its best. Other wise if the indians attack tommorow, ill ask you to hop in one of those moth balled mirages and take on a Mig-29 or two. Wars are unpredictable, therefore it is imperative that the PAF gets a fighter to hold out for a short while till the other aircraft some over in full strength.

PS pakistans assistance in the J-10 program was covert, so its obvious that there was no formal agreement, only a secret one perhaps to have the J-10 sold to pakistan early.

 

[SABRE]

crap man. why cant you plz take a hint and take the time ratio in as well. Were only trying to get in the J-11 for a couple of years so we can hold out till our inventory is at its best. Other wise if the indians attack tommorow, ill ask you to hop in one of those moth balled mirages and take on a Mig-29 or two. Wars are unpredictable, therefore it is imperative that the PAF gets a fighter to hold out for a short while till the other aircraft some over in full strength.

PS pakistans assistance in the J-10 program was covert, so its obvious that there was no formal agreement, only a secret one perhaps to have the J-10 sold to pakistan early.

India is not going to attack tomorrow, may be day after tomorrow but not before that.

MiG29 in my eyes are easy targets for PAkistani Jets "if" they are bening flyed by best of Pakistani Pilots (almost all of them are best-with the training they recieve). Its the SU and Mirage2000-5. Mirage 3 and 5 can ingage Mirage2000-5. Which leaves PAF with SUs, for that we can go for all out attack with bulk of Mirage 3 and 5.

Anyways its not the PAF defence thats weak but PAF aggression, and thats the actual problem. PAF has been aggressive force more than defencive. They have proactive thinking. Attack what can attack you in future. Thats why they are looking for a 4th Gen Jet and thats why dont have a major Frontline Fighter. If we were lookin for a 3rd Gen we would have been holding upto 60+ Mirage2000-5. Price comes second for PAF, besides they have saved alot since 1990 and keep gettin too much after every years budget. PAF still has its pocket full even after investing in JF-17. AWACs are being purchased directly by defence ministry so PAF is not loosing money. They have got so much money in their pockets that not only they are lookin for a 4th Gen Jet but they r also lookin for a technology transfer.

J-11 for temprary period is like buying a second hand cell phone. By the time you resell it, it would loose its value by large numbers.

I think PAF must contact Russians. Try askin them. Russia is desprate for money and PAF for Front Line Jets. Both have what the other needs. May be they will agree and if India comes in Russia might tell them to "mind your business, we do business with whome ever we like not with whome you like"
Pakistan should atleast try and convince Russia to allow China to Sell us the SU Jets and may be even few MiG29s.
There must always be possitive thinking you knw.

There is a famous Urdu saying "Fruits of patience are more sweeter" or you can say "patience is more fruitful". Believe me PAF's patience is going to bring them sweeter fruits.

 

[Roger Smith]

I think PAF must contact Russians. Try askin them. Russia is desprate for money and PAF for Front Line Jets. Both have what the other needs. May be they will agree and if India comes in Russia might tell them to "mind your business, we do business with whome ever we like not with whome you like"
Pakistan should atleast try and convince Russia to allow China to Sell us the SU Jets and may be even few MiG29s.
There must always be possitive thinking you knw.

I feel hoping and dreaming is good, but I assume your dreams are little bit to wild. Russia has been approached several times in the past by Pakistan to purchase stuff, but each time it has been declined and will continue to be so.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I feel hoping and dreaming is good, but I assume your dreams are little bit to wild. Russia has been approached several times in the past by Pakistan to purchase stuff, but each time it has been declined and will continue to be so.

Absolutely. Russia is strongly aligned to India. It has India as support against a possible confrontation with China, and it has a long and established relationship. Russia will not compromise its relationship with India when it sees China as an emerging problem with respect to Mongolia and Siberia.

Thats why Pakistan can only source from the Ukraine - Not Russia.

 

[srirangan]

PAF still has its pocket full even after investing in JF-17. AWACs are being purchased directly by defence ministry so PAF is not loosing money.

I think yuo got your accounts fudged up. I don't think PAF can buy without the permission of the ministry and the ministry can approval without the permission of Musharraf. So all purchases would take place by the defence ministry. I'm not so sure that PAF is allowed to pocket money with itself.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

hmm yeah thats true they need Musharafs approval he's COAS. i don't think PaF has an urgency to induct any new fighters, they would have 150-200 jf-17 with western technology in them. They now would have 7 AEW&C. i think PAF should calm down on the purchases, they are developing flight Sims for there JF-17 so i think PAF should induct the JF-17 and the other AEW&C and other new C&C enhancements into the PAF and then re-evaluate there requirements. But I’m not an expert and i am sure PAF has its designs for development. We forget one fact and that is that PAF like some other nations Air forces is a professional force which knows its requirements. it knows its Enemy and its own ability to defend against an attack.
The point here is that PAF should focus more on training and getting the most out of the Equipment that they have and the ones that they are going to receive. A new training doctrine should be adopted, which probably is in the works. AEW&C is a new concept in Warfare for any Transitional Air force. C&C structure would have to be altered dramatically to accommodate and avail the maximum out of the AEW&C. A good structure is vital for PAF’s future, a structure that can and will ensure flexibility and quick adaptability ie growth. However PAF is relatively small and should have some decent Personnel that pick things up quickly, PAF has been known for its quick adaptability and its flexibility.

 

[srirangan]

PAF has purchased AEW's not AEW&C's. Has the deal been signed btw?

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Oqaab,
The paf ACM'S interview was quite clear that the initial layout of the J10 was below par---with the indulgence of paf the plane changed its shape and the finished product was way ahead of anything that china had produced.
I was surprised to read that statement coming from the ACM, because before that pakistan never mentioned anything about its in depth involvement in the designing of that aircraft.

Yesterday's news somewhere the SU factory is hurting for sales quite a bit---pakistan must ask for the equipment everytime they get the oppurtunity, what is russia going to say, no----maybe ten times, but what if the next time it is a yes-----i.e., car sales 101 ask for the business for atleast 3 times '' IF I CAN, WOULD YOU", DON'T HOLD IT AGAINST US WHAT THE PREVIOUS OWNER DID TO YOU. WE ARE A NEW TEAM. THE PREVIOUS MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN FIRED JUST FOR DOING THOSE STUPID THINGS. WE DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY. YOU WANT WARM WATERS----BROTHER YOU GOT WARM WATERS----LETS BUILD SOME ROADS AND RAILROADS TO MAKE THE CONNECTION BUT WHILE WE ARE DOING THAT CAN WE GET SOME OF YOUR SU30'S AS WELL JUST TO SHOW SOME GOOD FAITH BETWEEN GOOD FRIENDS. Russians would be a very tough nut to crack, but if you got through once you would be surprised to find them as very good emotional friends.

 

[adsH]

PAF has purchased AEW's not AEW&C's. Has the deal been signed btw?

Admin: Keep it civil! Unnecessary comment edited out. AEW is almost pointless it’s like the Russian stuff that was never popular. An Eyrie is an AEW&C check your facts on the Erricson web page. PAF has committed Airborne Jamming/Recon Support Assets, why the hell would they purchase an other recon AC and waste there already limited resources. Use some common sense here, all you do all day here is down grade others purchases your Superiority complex is annoying and unnecessary here. We all do try and have civilized conversation all until you show up in the thread.

 

[srirangan]

Okay whatever. We all know what the capabilities of Eireyes actually are. Live in pretence, I'm out.

 

[adsH]

Okay whatever. We all know what the capabilities of Eireyes actually are. Live in pretence, I'm out.

Wrong, none of us (except maybe GF) would know any of the real capability of an Eireye. a PAF customized version of the Eireye would be allot more classified.
If you go on to the erricson web page it details some of the commercial Eireyes abilities and its has demo pictures.

 

[srirangan]

Don't go by specifications, if you know the science of it, how it works, we can spell out the limitations ourselves. This isn't alien technology, understanding it ain't beyond any of us.

If you let me quote gf about the Eireyes:

The fundamental issue is that Phalcon is not only the more powerful platform, but it is autonomous. The Erieye is part of a comms group that is interdependant. If you wanted to be absolutely brutal about it, it's a fancy radar picket. Take away GCI and the Erieye is a transmitter with nothing to relay to (except maybe a shipboard receiver assuming a vessel has been configured as such)

Phalcon on the other hand is an autonomous platform that to all intents and purposes can act as a flying command post. If its identical to the Israeli concept then it is a combination of AWACs and a capacity to partially act as an E3 Rivet series

 

[corsair7772]

crap man. why cant you plz take a hint and take the time ratio in as well. Were only trying to get in the J-11 for a couple of years so we can hold out till our inventory is at its best. Other wise if the indians attack tommorow, ill ask you to hop in one of those moth balled mirages and take on a Mig-29 or two. Wars are unpredictable, therefore it is imperative that the PAF gets a fighter to hold out for a short while till the other aircraft some over in full strength.

PS pakistans assistance in the J-10 program was covert, so its obvious that there was no formal agreement, only a secret one perhaps to have the J-10 sold to pakistan early.

India is not going to attack tomorrow, may be day after tomorrow but not before that.

MiG29 in my eyes are easy targets for PAkistani Jets "if" they are bening flyed by best of Pakistani Pilots (almost all of them are best-with the training they recieve). Its the SU and Mirage2000-5. Mirage 3 and 5 can ingage Mirage2000-5. Which leaves PAF with SUs, for that we can go for all out attack with bulk of Mirage 3 and 5.

Anyways its not the PAF defence thats weak but PAF aggression, and thats the actual problem. PAF has been aggressive force more than defencive. They have proactive thinking. Attack what can attack you in future. Thats why they are looking for a 4th Gen Jet and thats why dont have a major Frontline Fighter. If we were lookin for a 3rd Gen we would have been holding upto 60+ Mirage2000-5. Price comes second for PAF, besides they have saved alot since 1990 and keep gettin too much after every years budget. PAF still has its pocket full even after investing in JF-17. AWACs are being purchased directly by defence ministry so PAF is not loosing money. They have got so much money in their pockets that not only they are lookin for a 4th Gen Jet but they r also lookin for a technology transfer.

J-11 for temprary period is like buying a second hand cell phone. By the time you resell it, it would loose its value by large numbers.

I think PAF must contact Russians. Try askin them. Russia is desprate for money and PAF for Front Line Jets. Both have what the other needs. May be they will agree and if India comes in Russia might tell them to "mind your business, we do business with whome ever we like not with whome you like"
Pakistan should atleast try and convince Russia to allow China to Sell us the SU Jets and may be even few MiG29s.
There must always be possitive thinking you knw.

There is a famous Urdu saying "Fruits of patience are more sweeter" or you can say "patience is more fruitful". Believe me PAF's patience is going to bring them sweeter fruits.

Why does everyone here seem to think that IAF pilots are 3 year old infants, with diapers and a bottle? Those people will obviously know how to fly an aircrat after operating it for a decade. And your confidence in the fact that india will take its time in striking is somewthing i read about in great miitary failures. National defence is not something taken as lightly as it seems to you.

Mirage 3 and 5 can fight a Mirage 2000-5? You have got to be ripping me off. If that was so why are we buying the JF-17 here??? No matter how good a cheetah is it still has a lot to work on before it can start taking on mirage 2000-5s and that too in large numbers. And as for the Su-30, you can forget about dealing with them if your gonna be so stuck on buying first class.

The J-11 may seem out of fashion to you, but i feel you are not taking military capabilities and effects in terms here, only trying to put yur own "favourite aircraft" in the PAF orbat. And at a time when the PAF has nothing to fly besides something a local car dealer here wouldnt dare to buy, an upgraded Su-27 is a good option and that too available in numbers.

You seem to have a curious fascination with the fact that we have a rich airforce. Our pockets have never been as full as they seem to you. PAF acquistion budgets have been so small tht they are sometimes absorbed into other fields. When we werent buying JF-17s and SAABs we were buying F-7s, K-8s and other moth balls besides investing in the JF-17 and K-8. Have you already forgotten that? and that too at a time when our economy was as scrambled as the eggs i had in breakfast.

An while were all reading urdu poetry abour patience we might as well find a poet who writes on military readiness at all ties as well.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

There are other versions of Eireye's, GF would not deny that him self. Every Airforce is a client, like every other client in the industry has needs and since these Military hardware are hardly of the shelf products they are considered customized. So they are tailor made to the exact requirements specs of an Airforce. Being completely non autonomous is not such a bad thing. PAF PA PN are trying hard to become a dynamic and integrated fully C4i networked force so they need an effective COM Surveillance and C&C assets such as these to maintain there edge in Warfare. I don’t get it how the Hell can Indian Phalcon purchases find its way here in this conversation, Siri!!

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

PAF negotiated J-10 after Mirage2000-5 cause they know that they dnt have to do much of a negotitation with Chinese.
Mirage2000-5 are not that expensive but PAF is still waiting for the price reduction. PAF is the largest Mirage user after France and I dnt think they are willing to risk this honor.

Quite stupid theory. : If PAF knows that it dont have to negotiate much for J-10, then why was PAF trying to put itself in problems and negotiating for Mirage ??? Tell me ?

The answer is simple. PAF likes Mirage 2000-5 more then J-10 and this is why it went for it. PAF negotiations for gripen aircraft indicates that PAF needs western technology.

And BTW, PAF officials didnt said anout the J-10 talks uptill now.

Pakistan did help in J-10 by providing info on various western designs specially of F-16. Pakistan dint provide much for FC-1 because it was already planned Jet. China made plans for FC-1 with USA later USA backed out. Design was already there and all Pakistan had to do was invest. But there must be few things that Pakistan might have provided China with.

Ok, I will agree with U here that Pakistan provided F-16 for research. What I meant was that Pakistani engineers didnt provide any technical assistance (since we are far behind them).

Also, when Grumman backed the SaberII project, the entire designed of the aircraft was changed by the Chinese and invited Pakistan to join the project. The F-16 Pakistan provided helped the Chinese for the JF-17 too.

Also take in notice that Chinese version is called FC-1 and Pakistani version is called JF-17. Pakistan is going to bring changes in JF-17 by putting western tech in it, this makes JF-17 superior to FC-1. They would be like two different Jets with same body.

The only western thing Pakistan will put in JF-17 is the Grifo S-7 Radar. And we dont know which aircrafts radar will be superior because FC-1 will use Israeli Elta-2032 Radar. Other sub-systems are same.

JF means Joint fighter (from joint venture), this does not include name of China which means once Pakistan starts producing its own JF-17 in Pakistan they can get some other country to participate in upgrading the Jet (there are chances of France coming into the project). You must also take in accord that Pakistani JF-17 has room and capability for change. So it can also be upgraded to 4th Gen if Pakistan is capable of getting help from western countries (So far France and Italy are visible in the future project upgrading).

If Pakistan had supported the project technically, then this aircraft could have the name FP-1 (Fighter Pakistan 1) or something like that. But since Pakistan supported financially, the name will be joint fighter -17.

Pakistan was looking for a french radar, namely RC-400 but the french refused to sell it because they want Pakistan to become a customer of Mirage 2000-5. So far, the capabilities of Grifo S-7 stated are good. But the search and tracking range is unknown. So we will have to wait untill detailed info is released.

Pak is going to purchase Mirage2000-5 sooner or later. All those who r thinking that cause India has them PAk wont buy them, r wrong. If PAk purchases Mirage2000-5 it would be equally bad for India as India would be facing the similar defence than, but PAF wants a superior edge over India so they are waiting. USA has opened its military aid doors to PAk again & there is no doubt that Pak officials are already in negotiations with USA counterparts for F-16 and probably some thing better. (purchase of F-16s will be a secondary one- as PAF is lookin for some thing of 4th Gen).

Most probably, the Mirage 2000-5 could be selected since there are no funds problem. PAF offered 2.5 billion to Sweden for the purchase of Gripens. This shows that we can afford Mirages aswell.

India is purchasing Mirage 2000-5s because of the delay in LCAs induction. On the other hand, Pakistan is trying to get planes as soon as possible: even before the JF-17 production.

About US arms sale, well, the US will continue to encourage others to sell arms to Pakistan. But it will not sell any weapons to Pakistan. The only think US can do for us is MLU upgrade of our F-16s.

Is far as J-10 is concerened over being PAF's requirment than all those who agree I think are right. J-10 was built to come to par with SU-27. It has also defeated SU-27 in a DogFight or the Chinese say so. India has SU-27 and Chinese J-10 can ingage them, so they automaticaly becomes PAF's requirment. Pak can also buy J-10 and put western technology in, and try to make it superior to the ones Chinese will hold.

Buying a J-10 and putting western technology in it is not that easy dude. Nobody, specially France will agree to sell its subcomponents to Pakistan. Dassult have been making the most sales in europe: even more then BAE. They want Pakistan to buy aircrafts, not subcomponents.

Yo also said that PAF will be replacing 50% of its inventory with JF-17. I dnt c it that way. All those Jets which ppl believe will be grounded are being purchased even today in more quantity. Why would PAF be purchasing some thing that it might have to ground abt 6 years from now. They might all be used for bulk air defence or all out attack.

Strange, U dont know about A-5, Mirage and F-7 replacement.

The Mirages and F-7s will be started replacing by Jf-17s after 2012. A Naval version will also be made of JF-17 with inflight refueling probe and deck arrester hook installed. Check PakDef for more info. The JF-17 will replace mirages and F-7s in our fleet.

 

[srirangan]

Nice post Oqaab.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The Mirages and F-7s will be started replacing by Jf-17s after 2012. A Naval version will also be made of JF-17 with inflight refueling probe and deck arrester hook installed. Check PakDef for more info. The JF-17 will replace mirages and F-7s in our fleet.

Ok I confess most of the things I said were jsut my fantisy. But my real question is why PAF is buying some thing today that it will ground abt 6 yrs from now.We r buying more F-7s from China and we just bought more Mirage3 and 5 from Australia and Libya.
As I said i believe that PAF would use them for Bulk air defence or all out attack.

Secondly, I knew about this navy JF-17 and when I posted about it few months ago I got a serious hard hitting from others. (but dnt go trusting every thing from PAkDef).

If u can confirm wheather a double seated JF-17 is being considured or not.

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Ok I confess most of the things I said were jsut my fantisy. But my real question is why PAF is buying some thing today that it will ground abt 6 yrs from now.We r buying more F-7s from China and we just bought more Mirage3 and 5 from Australia and Libya.
As I said i believe that PAF would use them for Bulk air defence or all out attack.

Do U know whats the date today ? Its 2004.

And who the hell said that we will ground Mirages and F-7s ? Replacement doesnt needs aircrafts to be grounded. The replacement will start from 2012 through a process. The aircrafts will not be grounded.

The Mirages we bought are for spare parts. The Australian mirages were bought and upgraded to ROSE I/II/III standards. The older mirages are not serving anymore.

Secondly, I knew about this navy JF-17 and when I posted about it few months ago I got a serious hard hitting from others. (but dnt go trusting every thing from PAkDef).

If u can confirm wheather a double seated JF-17 is being considured or not.

I m not sure about the two seater version but IRP and deck arrester hook will be installed in the naval version.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Yup. I read it in an interview by the ACM that two seater Jf-17s are in the pipeline but wont be produced right now as the first 16 aircraft (8 for Pakistan and 8 for China) need to be rolled out first and then the serial production of single-seaters would begin to fill in the gap that PAF has. Somewhere down the line, they 'may' produce a batch of twin-seaters then. :smokingc:

 

[Skygrasper]

For a new fighter, well, we have too many political and financial problems with countries, and buying a new fighter aircraft from the West is hard, and always turned out badly.

For now, we should make the JF-17 as good as possible, and in the process reduce the numbers of flying planes, and replace them with slightly newer ones in smaller numbers.