Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[Roger Smith]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sukhoi series Su-27s and Su-30s are comparatively better to US frontline F-15 and F-18 aircrafts. Unfortunately due to political reason Russia would not supply Sukhoi aircrafts to Pakistan. Even though, if Pakistan buys second hand Su-27s at throw way price from Ukraine, Russia will block the sale of spare parts and the aircrafts will be like white elephant stationery unflyable.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

roger are you listening to your self here. how on earth are these MKI better then american AC like F-15/F-16/F18. these are some of the most battle hardened platforms where the US employs its most cutting edge tech. your biased who can't see thorugh your veil of blinded ignorant patriotism f-16 and other western AC have a much higher UPtime then Russian platforms, they are alot more Economical. india just buying French Mirages is proof enough.

If PAF needed spares for there SU27 (which they would never BUY) they could easily get spares from China

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The Russians have declared openly time and time again that military sales are governed by their foreign policy. Their Foreign Policy is aligned with their long term ally - India.

Hence, no military sales would go into regions which would jeopardise their strategic committments.

Hence, no Su-27's for Pakistan. China is not permitted to license build Su-27's for export, and of they did then they would jeopardise arms puchases that they need from Russia. The Chinese are not silly, they won't sacrifice their own national security requirements for a few military exports.

 

[corsair7772]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

roger are you listening to your self here. how on earth are these MKI better then american AC like F-15/F-16/F18. these are some of the most battle hardened platforms where the US employs its most cutting edge tech. your biased who can't see thorugh your veil of blinded ignorant patriotism f-16 and other western AC have a much higher UPtime then Russian platforms, they are alot more Economical. india just buying French Mirages is proof enough.

If PAF needed spares for there SU27 (which they would never BUY) they could easily get spares from China

Ur pessimism is horrific enough adsh. This isnt a time for the PAF to sit down on a road side and wait for someone to change its diapers. Its a time for us to get up and explore any options available ( i dont say all cuz i share your pessimistic views). China can give us spares for the basic stuff like airframes and all but for the rest well have to stockpile this from across the globe until china starts makin its own by say 2010~2013. And its like the old bard keeps sayin : the BVR advantage goes to west, the dogfight advantage goes to us but a good pilot cancels these factors out.

AND HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REMIND MY COMRADES THT THE SU-27 DOES NOt HAVE A LONG DOWN TIME??? cuz if the PAF can be stupid enuff to get RD-93 engines for JF-17s then it can be stupid enuff to get these fitted on su-27s as well and presto, spares en passent cuz weve already got an agreement for this engine and under this cover we can get our su-27s and not have nightmares about embargoes. Get wat im sayin? Wat im sayin is tht a su-27 gives us a win-win situation. Were not countering Su-30s here ppl, were beefing up our force till the J-10s and Jf-17s take there sweet time in cuming here in a respectable number.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Ur pessimism is horrific enough adsh. This isnt a time for the PAF to sit down on a road side and wait for someone to change its diapers. Its a time for us to get up and explore any options available ( i dont say all cuz i share your pessimistic views). China can give us spares for the basic stuff like airframes and all but for the rest well have to stockpile this from across the globe until china starts makin its own by say 2010~2013. And its like the old bard keeps sayin : the BVR advantage goes to west, the dogfight advantage goes to us but a good pilot cancels these factors out.

AND HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REMIND MY COMRADES THT THE SU-27 DOES NOt HAVE A LONG DOWN TIME??? cuz if the PAF can be stupid enuff to get RD-93 engines for JF-17s then it can be stupid enuff to get these fitted on su-27s as well and presto, spares en passent cuz weve already got an agreement for this engine and under this cover we can get our su-27s and not have nightmares about embargoes. Get wat im sayin? Wat im sayin is tht a su-27 gives us a win-win situation. Were not countering Su-30s here ppl, were beefing up our force till the J-10s and Jf-17s take there sweet time in cuming here in a respectable number.

China is prohibited by Russia from exporting Su-27's. China won't risk access to platforms such as Russian Kilos, skimmers, Il-76's and missile technology for Su-27 sales.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The Russians have declared openly time and time again that military sales are governed by their foreign policy. Their Foreign Policy is aligned with their long term ally - India.

Hence, no military sales would go into regions which would jeopardise their strategic committments.

Hence, no Su-27's for Pakistan. China is not permitted to license build Su-27's for export, and of they did then they would jeopardise arms puchases that they need from Russia. The Chinese are not silly, they won't sacrifice their own national security requirements for a few military exports.

GF its not the Shinese flankers i was talkingabout but the Ukrainian Flankers that are and have been offered to PAF.Chinese can provide help-in integration of Moderen Western/pakistani Avionics and supply spares for the Flankers.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

roger are you listening to your self here. how on earth are these MKI better then american AC like F-15/F-16/F18. these are some of the most battle hardened platforms where the US employs its most cutting edge tech. your biased who can't see thorugh your veil of blinded ignorant patriotism f-16 and other western AC have a much higher UPtime then Russian platforms, they are alot more Economical. india just buying French Mirages is proof enough.

If PAF needed spares for there SU27 (which they would never BUY) they could easily get spares from China

I read an article some time back that Su-30MKI is in the league of American F-22 aircraft. I feel GF0012-aust could be able to verify on it, as I respect his views.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

GF its not the Shinese flankers i was talkingabout but the Ukrainian Flankers that are and have been offered to PAF.Chinese can provide help-in integration of Moderen Western/pakistani Avionics and supply spares for the Flankers.

adsH, I think you'll find that there are similar provisions in place with the Ukraine. Russia has stopped some Ukrainian sales in the past.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

russai is not out there bent on destroying ukrain it (russai does realise that Ukraine needs money too just like it(russai does). India did try and stop the dealings between Pakistan and Ukraine through russia but that restraint never held up.


Roger thats fantasy talk the F22 is the most advance fighter available it has sustainable super-cruise ability and has the advantage of stealth. it's technology would be far apart whatever the rest of the world put together has to offer.its cost per-unit is about 150mill dollar. i hardly see where the similarity exists. you can compare the MKI with the F-15 but not the F-22

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

russai is not out there bent on destroying ukrain it (russai does realise that Ukraine needs money too just like it(russai does). India did try and stop the dealings between Pakistan and Ukraine through russia but that restraint never held up.


Roger thats fantasy talk the F22 is the most advance fighter available it has sustainable super-cruise ability and has the advantage of stealth. it's technology would be far apart whatever the rest of the world put together has to offer.its cost per-unit is about 150mill dollar. i hardly see where the similarity exists. you can compare the MKI with the F-15 but not the F-22

I am not joking, I read the article on Su-30MKI and F-22, if I find the site again I will post it for your reference.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

ahn roger thats probably why IAF wants Mirage 2005 mk2 !! if MKI was that advance then why isn't it receiving the international response a top rated High-tech AC should get.

DON't BOTHER YOU CAN"T GIVE ME ANY ARTICLE THAT WOULD CHANGE MY MIND. the F-22 is better in most part then the EF2000 and i have always considered EF2000 as the best AC available.

 

[corsair7772]

And whose sayin that the EF-2000 is available???

 

[adsH]

And whose sayin that the EF-2000 is available???

i am sorry crossair. the heat was intended towards Roger he kept going on and on and onn, like many on this fourm about MKI being better then F-22.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The last series of unpublished weapons releases indicated that an F-22 engaged 4 targets. 2wvr, 2bvr, all F-15 AESA's. The F15's did not see the F-22. The weapons system prioritised the threats and released weapons simultaneously

The pilot referred to the exercise as like "clubbing baby seals"

The f-22 is a true 5th generation platform. The su-30mki is probably the best of the su30's - but I'd like to see it handle a typhoon and a rafale with their networked comms.

even the french concede that the rafale will be no match for the f-22.

 

[corsair7772]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Ur pessimism is horrific enough adsh. This isnt a time for the PAF to sit down on a road side and wait for someone to change its diapers. Its a time for us to get up and explore any options available ( i dont say all cuz i share your pessimistic views). China can give us spares for the basic stuff like airframes and all but for the rest well have to stockpile this from across the globe until china starts makin its own by say 2010~2013. And its like the old bard keeps sayin : the BVR advantage goes to west, the dogfight advantage goes to us but a good pilot cancels these factors out.

AND HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REMIND MY COMRADES THT THE SU-27 DOES NOt HAVE A LONG DOWN TIME??? cuz if the PAF can be stupid enuff to get RD-93 engines for JF-17s then it can be stupid enuff to get these fitted on su-27s as well and presto, spares en passent cuz weve already got an agreement for this engine and under this cover we can get our su-27s and not have nightmares about embargoes. Get wat im sayin? Wat im sayin is tht a su-27 gives us a win-win situation. Were not countering Su-30s here ppl, were beefing up our force till the J-10s and Jf-17s take there sweet time in cuming here in a respectable number.

China is prohibited by Russia from exporting Su-27's. China won't risk access to platforms such as Russian Kilos, skimmers, Il-76's and missile technology for Su-27 sales.

Cmon GF! your not taking the time ratio into account here. Russia knows that once china reverse engineers the Su-27 into an indigenous product by 2015 perhaps, itll be free from any restrictions in exporting them. Its even given official statements guessing how long this would take.(15 years but the western analysts think this can be done by 2012~15). You see? Russia doesnt give a damn who gets the technology stuff as long as its makin the bucks. Its not a superpower anymore. Its a arms dealer. And thats buisness not politics. So it collects the bucks for TOT (a VERY expensive affair) and keeps its mouth shut. In the Chinese case, theres no indian interference cuz china is an even more important customer than India perhaps bcuz china is more mature and needs more when it cums to arms imports. Thus when china masters the flankers and starts marketting them it can neatly avoid the blame frm the indian embassy that china is exporting russian technology to pakistan or bangladesh or watever cuz the flankers are carrying the chinese manufacturing label NOT a russian one. hell the chinese even have a name for it : the J-11. So how do you explain the fact that after decade of heavy investment and mastering of technology china would still be fearfull of russia blocking access to kilos and Il-76s?(as if no progress is being made in these fields) The point im makin here is that china exporting J-11s , an eventuality accepted by Russia mainly cuz it gets a lot of hard cash out of it, is fine wid the ex superpower which has new rules to the game. but china selling Su-27s of russian kits is not ok cuz theyve got india to cheer up. Get it? Cuz u have t rmmbr tht this isnt the 1970s or 80s wid both superpowers fearful of a technological leak (Russia has alrdy sent two flankers to US for analysis).

so whose still against the Su-27s?

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

so whose still against the Su-27s?

Oh oh Oh me me me :mrgreen I am still against it. its nothing to do with its capability its just how it looks. I never liked it form the first day i saw it its like you know when someone experiences Love at first sight. well i had the opposite Hate at first site for the Flanker.but people say its a good platform. :mrgreen

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Russia not a super power??? Have you looked at the number of nuclear weapons that she has compared to China?? It's like comparing Singapore to France!

The bottom line is that China will not overtly sell platforms while it needs Russian technology - even their own military analysts are saying that - it's not a "western" assessment.

Why do you think that China is so vigorously trying to develop it's own solutions? - It knows that it will never get beyond the export quality models of what Russia will sell it, and she well knows that Russia will not sell her technology she needs now if she deliberately and overtly on-sells them.

The Russians may be desperate for money now, but they haven't forgotten how to play chess.

(Russia has alrdy sent two flankers to US for analysis).

The US has been buying Russian equipment for it's aggressor training and evalution by NASIC since 1989 - so what?? The Russians were prepared to lease 6 Tu-22's and a flight of Tu-142's 5 years ago for anti-CSF training. Russia is more wary of China than it is of the USA. You're forgetting the problems that Russia and China have over outer mongolia and Siberia. Russia will not be selling China any packages which it cannot counter or deems a threat. That is the reality of countries that sell export models. They only sell them if they know how to counter them. It's why China can't get access to Su-30's. It's why India can.

It's not a conspiracy or simplified to an issue that Russia needs money so desperately that she will undermine her security for roubles.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The last series of unpublished weapons releases indicated that an F-22 engaged 4 targets. 2wvr, 2bvr, all F-15 AESA's. The F15's did not see the F-22. The weapons system prioritised the threats and released weapons simultaneously

The pilot referred to the exercise as like "clubbing baby seals"

The f-22 is a true 5th generation platform. The su-30mki is probably the best of the su30's - but I'd like to see it handle a typhoon and a rafale with their networked comms.

even the french concede that the rafale will be no match for the f-22.

Thanks for the info.

 

[corsair7772]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Russia not a super power??? Have you looked at the number of nuclear weapons that she has compared to China?? It's like comparing Singapore to France!

The bottom line is that China will not overtly sell platforms while it needs Russian technology - even their own military analysts are saying that - it's not a "western" assessment.

Why do you think that China is so vigorously trying to develop it's own solutions? - It knows that it will never get beyond the export quality models of what Russia will sell it, and she well knows that Russia will not sell her technology she needs now if she deliberately and overtly on-sells them.

The Russians may be desperate for money now, but they haven't forgotten how to play chess.

(Russia has alrdy sent two flankers to US for analysis).

The US has been buying Russian equipment for it's aggressor training and evalution by NASIC since 1989 - so what?? The Russians were prepared to lease 6 Tu-22's and a flight of Tu-142's 5 years ago for anti-CSF training. Russia is more wary of China than it is of the USA. You're forgetting the problems that Russia and China have over outer mongolia and Siberia. Russia will not be selling China any packages which it cannot counter or deems a threat. That is the reality of countries that sell export models. They only sell them if they know how to counter them. It's why China can't get access to Su-30's. It's why India can.

It's not a conspiracy or simplified to an issue that Russia needs money so desperately that she will undermine her security for roubles.

Gf, the day nukes make a country a superpower is the day we can al allign ourselves with Iran, Libya or anyone who has them. There is no so-called parity on the nuclear level. It doesnt matter howmany nukes you have and what their tonnage is. All dat matters is ur delivery system perhaps. A nukes a nuke and a detterent. By merely possessing nukes in thousands , russia hasnt automatically revertd to its old state. Being a super power is much more than that, and russia has lost more than it should have. No superpower has ever collapsed before. The vaccum created by it is something new to a lot of people. It is exactly this alienic situation and huge arms vaccum which have changed the way arms are exported. Powerful Multi-Corporation Agencies like something called Rosenborg?? have risen. These arms groups are the one running the arms export policy with little interference from the government as it has come about to realize that the defence industry is one of its most promising ventures besides the energy corporations (steadily being ruined due to Putins hard line against them signified by the recent arrest of a CEO and tough laws.) A fool and his money are soon parted GF. Russia isnt going to let the europeans and americans loot china buy selling it with arms, its going to join in. Thus comes the eventual large scale arms profilteration. However the game with china is different. China unlike the everyday customer is aiming for its superpower role, and one thing about a superpower : It makes its own arms down to the last nut and bolt. Thus with china russia must accept a ToT on throw away items (and blv me the flanker has alrdy become a throw away item). Russia wont have a problem with that as its a very profitable buisness and cmon, if the EU and americans get there first its bad buisness. Russia wont ToT Su-30s and Su-35s but surely Su-27s in there older versions as its like i said a buck making sale.

Now ur saying russia wont sell China arms cuz of the siberian dispute right. Well here youve already answered your own question. NuKES. Russia feels that it possesses a sufficient detterent of tactical warhead and larger warheads and means to deliver them. Any chinese army would be reduced to radio active waste the minute it penetrates russian defenses. The russians themselves have superiority in air power with there Su-37s and Su-35s and new weapons that china hasnt even sniffed about. And russia is confident that it knows all it needs to know to beat its own product.

Last but not the least, u dont think that a china aiming for oil and gold in siberia is going to have the well wishes of america and NATO. Russia can count on america busting the chinese party if it ever gets going anyway, after what the russians would have done to it with there smaller tactical nukes.

And what youve been saying in your first paras about china not selling till its mastered the product is exactly what ive been muttering about as well.
China is rapidly acheiving success in this field. It may not master Su-30s soon but Su-27s should be rolling off chinese factories as J-11 by 2012~15.
And onc china does this its already made its own fighter and russia can not qualm that. Russia has long accepted this possiblity and will merely consider it as part of a profitable deal. Kilos and destroyers will still be sold in anticipation of further orders and more bucks. Im not saying russia is gonna go nuts selling arms to china, if china dares to sell us Su-30s w/0 russian permission it can kiss its plasma technology research good bye.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Corsair, I actually get to speak to people in Rosoboronexport at military exhibitions and military conferences etc about technology issues, it may not be totally open (as in unclassified) but it is very very open about what they see as their future threats. They have no interest in selling China any of their technology which would threaten their position. China gets the export items only. They've already had China build unlicenced mods of the AK-74, AK-47, RPG-7, Kilos and they suspect that China is building more Su-27's than what they are licensed to do. Re the Su-27, Russia refused to provide China the technology to make their own blanks by with holding a 5 axis press. That is akin to refusing to give Ford Moro Company the machinery to transfer the chassis drawings onto a metal product (in one piece) - That is a huge statement of distrust

Also, Russia at a conventional level would wipe China on the battlefield with not much effort. As long as they didn't seek to invade and occupy they would crush them rather quickly.

I always find it interesting that people who don't have an involvement with military issues at a work level think that the answers are so transparent.

btw, Rosoboronexport is the govt - they are private in name only - but they are a Government Business Enterprise. They aren't the russian equivalent of a Boeing or LockMart but are more like GIAT or EADS in structure. Hence they will abide by Russian foreign policy because they are Russian Govt by association.

I just wonder why a lot of people think that money will buy everything - after all, China has had the money, and the EU still refuses to lift the arms embargoes (except for the French who some suspect are selling by stealth anyway).

Money does not buy every trinket that a country wants - the very belief that this is so shows that you haven't observed recent (last 30 years) arms sales. Gripen being a tacit example, Phalcon being a tacit example, that money will not always get you what you want.

The French are acknowledged within the industry as being the "whores of arms sales" and they don't sell their best kit, or even some of their kit just to make some extra Francs.

I act as an agent for some French ballistics technology, and even though I act as their agent in Australia, I cannot onsell the equipment if it clashes with or contradicts their Foreign Policy.

If you saw the processes required to sell US equipment (which involves a laborious and very documented process that has to be vetted and approved by the US State Dept) you would understand that money and a willingness to purchase means nada, zip, zilch, zero for some countries. I can assure you that Russias attitude to China is very very distinct. Most Russians I deal with actually see that they will end up in a shooting war with China over Siberia and Mongolia - so they have no intent of giving them any technology which is considered sophisticated enough not to be countered or might come back in an unwanted manner.