Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[corsair7772]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Thnx corsair. I still am in no mood to see Flankers in PAF colors.

No one should be.

Anyways even if PAF purchases Flankers who will provide the spare parts? We might be stuck like F-16s. PAF officers knw better than any one of us. If they are not buying some thing there must be a very good reason to it.

Why dont we get Tornadoes from Saudi Arabia. They have entire technology. Tornadoes are very good in desert missions. They would be good when put into battle at Thar and Run of Kuch region. We can aquire its spare parts from Saudi's at a discount.
PAF should buy atleast 20 of these jets.

Admin Edit: 2 posts merged together. Please refrain from posting back to back when one post will do the job

OH for cryin out aloud! wadya mean we cant get spares for the flankers? the east european countries have large stocks of them piled up due to the in activity of their air force. And have u forgotten the fact that the PLAAF is building its own Flankers, upto 210 of them. Dont tell me you wont get spare parts from them.

and about those tornadoes, 20 wont make sense. thats too small a number to build an entire infrastructure for. Wed have to buy 60 or 80 to make sense, and that automatically raises the cost. so whats the point? Itll make more sense goin for the J-11 and the J-10 and even the J-13 (chinese built Su-30) if it is ever built and why not? the chinese in the next 5 years will have highly advanced avionics, enough for us to forget the italians and the french.

Like it or not, the chinese are the only feasible option here unless we want a situation like the 70s or 90s.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I have this samll question in my mind

If Russia allows China to sell its F-6 (MiG19) and F-7 (MiG21) to Pakistan (Specially during 1965 and 71 war) why would they stop them from selling SU series to Pakistan + latest of MiG series aswell?

China is still selling MiG19 & 21 to Pakistan isnt it?

 

[corsair7772]

we never got any F-7s till the late 80s. And china was producing its own reverse engineered versions of these 2 aircraft ever since the split with the russians. So they didnt need any russo permission. But the Sukhoi series needs permission as it is being produced under licence and is subject to russian approval. The chinese will start marketting the J-11 (su-27) soon enough how ever as the degree of indigenous components has risen sharply and it should be indigenised by the next 5-7 years and would automatically become available to pakistan along with the J-10. The su-30 (J-13) would take more time to indigenize and china isnt even producing it under license yet.

And as for the last questions, no more F-6s. We only got some 50 F-7s in 2002 or 3 which were the MG design. in case its of interest to you the MG design of the F-7 is the airframe on which the chinese have developed their FMS version of the F-7 which is BVR capable so if the PAF wants to upgrade these it can do so to the BVR standard w/o western assistance.

 

[SABRE]

we never got any F-7s till the late 80s. And china was producing its own reverse engineered versions of these 2 aircraft ever since the split with the russians. So they didnt need any russo permission. But the Sukhoi series needs permission as it is being produced under licence and is subject to russian approval. The chinese will start marketting the J-11 (su-27) soon enough how ever as the degree of indigenous components has risen sharply and it should be indigenised by the next 5-7 years and would automatically become available to pakistan along with the J-10. The su-30 (J-13) would take more time to indigenize and china isnt even producing it under license yet.

And as for the last questions, no more F-6s. We only got some 50 F-7s in 2002 or 3 which were the MG design. in case its of interest to you the MG design of the F-7 is the airframe on which the chinese have developed their FMS version of the F-7 which is BVR capable so if the PAF wants to upgrade these it can do so to the BVR standard w/o western assistance.

Good details. I should try and keep this in my mind.

So if China comes out with its version of SU jets like it came up with MiG19 and 21 Pakistan have good chances of getting them?

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Guys,
Standard soviet machinery has an extensive down time and it is not very cost effective for pakistan to operate it. So, going for the SU27 would be the last ditch effort on the part of the pakistani AF.

Now some of you may have read the ACM's interview awhile ago in which he mentioned about seriously considering the J 10's. One very important thing that he mentioned was about the technical input by the PAF into the design and finished product of the J 10 which came out to be far superior and better quality than the initial chinese design. This present product did and would meet the requirements of the PAF.

I personally believe that the PAF have set their minds on the J 10's and its different versions to be its next frontline fighter. And the chinese are learning fast that quantity quantity quantity is no substitute for quality quality quality.

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I personally believe that the PAF have set their minds on the J 10's and its different versions to be its next frontline fighter. And the chinese are learning fast that quantity quantity quantity is no substitute for quality quality quality.

PAF has to make choice between Mirage 2000-5 or J-10. The sale of Gripens is denied by the Swedish Government. Russia has also refused to sell weapons to Pakistan. The Mirage 2000-5 negotiations were successful in Aprl 2002. But PAF wanted a cheaper aircraft which can fulfil its needs.

As fas as J-10 is concerned, PAF has enough chinese planes in the past (serving too). For example, F-6, F-7P, F-7PG, A-5s and PAF also has plans to buy some more PGs from China and lets not forget, the JF-17 is also comming. If the JF-17 got a suitable radar, then it can come close to J-10 (in avionics because other sub-systems stated so far are excellent). PAF needs western technology and this is the reason why it went for Mirage 2000-5 and Gripens before the cheeper J-10.

So in my opinion, the mirage 2000-5 could be the PAF choice.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I have said this b4. PAF would love to have Mirage2000-5 but it already has well upgraded Mirage 3 and 5 which are not so bad when compared to Mirage-2k5. PAF is for surely going to buy Mirage2000-5 but as secondary Front line fighter like in 1965 sabre were front liners and F-104 starfighters were secondary fighters. But PAF is going to buy these Jets in Bulk quantity after they get their primary Frnt Line Jet.

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I have said this b4. PAF would love to have Mirage2000-5 but it already has well upgraded Mirage 3 and 5 which are not so bad when compared to Mirage-2k5. PAF is for surely going to buy Mirage2000-5 but as secondary Front line fighter like in 1965 sabre were front liners and F-104 starfighters were secondary fighters. But PAF is going to buy these Jets in Bulk quantity after they get their primary Frnt Line Jet.

Dude,
There is a huge difference between Mirage III and Mirage 2000-5. Although both uses same airframe but the difference is in electronics systems, engine, hardpoints etc.

For secondary front line role, JF-17s and F-16s will be used if Mirage 2000-5 is purchased.

 

[pakcamando14]

I think PAF should go for the Dassault Rafale or the Eurofighter

 

[srirangan]

They won't be available for sale to Pakistan. Even if the Rafale were, PAF couldn't afford it.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Pakistan should be happy with Chinese FC-1/JF-17 aircrafts, before they (Chinese) change their mind too for not supplying the same to Pakistan.

 

[srirangan]

China won't deny JF17's to Pak. Pak is the only buyer, the PLAAF itself ain't interested and the Chinese definitely are looking to break-even by making sales to Pakistan, Bangladesh and third world African countries such as Zimbabwe and Nigeria, prolly Sudan.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Pakistan should be happy with Chinese FC-1/JF-17 aircrafts, before they (Chinese) change their mind too for not supplying the same to Pakistan.

What r u talkin about.

1st Pakistan half owns the project. The Jest are PAkistani too. FC-1 is China's version JF-17 is PAkistani Version which PAkistan will equip with western system (this make FC-1 and JF-17 two different versions of same JEt)

2nd. China cant risk its only true allie and only friend.

 

[corsair7772]

errrrrrrr well i wouldnt take the true ally and friend thing seriously. Its hard game in world politics. But thats not the subject.

The best strategy for the PAf would be to lease two or three squadrons of J-11s (36 aircraft) till something like 2010 by which time it would have completed its efforts in modernizing the airforce with J-10s and JF-17s. The relations and military ties with china permit such an operation and if the J-11 performs to the PAF's standards, then why not buy it. Or if it doesnt then no one loses his money and the J-11s go back in 2012 after serving their important beefing up role and the J-10 and Jf-17 come in

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I second corsair'z arguement. :smokingc: That should be the option which PAF should really consider.

 

[Libyan]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

the j-11 is not able to be sold or leased to pakistan when you say j-11 you mean the chinese copies of the su-27 in effect the underpowered kunlun variant.



China is UNABLE to get around the export limitations of the contract it signed
with russia to manufacture these aircraft.



I am still waiting for proof that Ukraine builds fighter jets, as the minute they even think about copying a su-27 or mig-29 the russians will cut off all trade with them.


as for the f-16 pakistan has about 16 of them.

wow.

so little and they are not able to fire BVR missiles. they typicaly carry aim-9 sidewinders not aim-7 sparrows!


the pakistani posistion just like the egyptian/arab posistion is untenable, unable to buy new aircraft we will end up fighting (flankers,f-22,jsf,f-15'slca's mcas) with little more than 50 year old mig-21/f-7's!!!!

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Not being able to get hands on a good western AC has led to indigenous struggle for self efficiency and will indeed produce more fruitful results when the next AC in line comes through after the Jf-17 Thunder!! :smokingc:

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

OQAAB,
The J 10 is not the average plane that the chinese had been producing. It is a new design from scratch in which according to the pakistani ACM, alots of paf technical input has been given to make it a better quality and a product with a much much better finish than the previous endeavours. A product that meets the PAF's requirements. Just the physical aspect of this plane is far different than anything else produced by the chinese. The appearnce alone is far superior to anything else in the inventory produced by china. Now don't get me wrong, appearance alone does not do much, but you know what, all these high end birds of prey have something different and unique about their shapes and appearances and the J 10 does make a statement of its own.
As for the electronic package, we will get what we need in due time.

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

For God sake, ppl, please stop saying we should buy or lease J-11s. It is still not completed. And China will not lease or sell this aircraft untill it has hundreds of these aircrafts serving in PLAAF.

VICTORA1,

OQAAB,
The J 10 is not the average plane that the chinese had been producing. It is a new design from scratch in which according to the pakistani ACM, alots of paf technical input has been given to make it a better quality and a product with a much much better finish than the previous endeavours.

Firstly, there is no doubt that J-10 is a very capable plane. The avionics systems, maneuverbility, performance, combat abilities make it invincible. But what I was trying to say is that, PAF cant go for this aircraft because it will be replacing 50% of its fleet with JF-17s. And after having this Chinese plane, I dont think J-10 option could be considered.

Mirage 2000-5 ..... NO, its expensive.
Gripen ..... NO, political reasons

And still there is no statement being made by PAF for the purchase of J-10.

Secondly, Uve said that J-10 has Pakistani input ??? Dude, If Pakistan really helped the J-10 project technically, then why didnt it helped its own joint project JF-17 technically ? The J-10 was a Chinese project, and not a joint venture.

A product that meets the PAF's requirements.

How can U say that it can meet PAFs requirments ? Do U know what the requirments are ?

Ok lets make it this way,

Can U tell me why PAF negotiated for Mirage 2000-5 and JAS-39 Gripen before the J-10 ?

Just the physical aspect of this plane is far different than anything else produced by the chinese. The appearnce alone is far superior to anything else in the inventory produced by china. Now don't get me wrong, appearance alone does not do much, but you know what, all these high end birds of prey have something different and unique about their shapes and appearances and the J 10 does make a statement of its own.

The J-10s aerodynamic structure isnt its weakness. It will be a good dogfighter as well as interceptor. Newer aircrafts like Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and JAS-39 Gripen have the same delta wings (short, but increased wingspan) and canards like J-10 has. It is more maneuverable then the Super Hornets. Even the US accepts this.

J-10 can definatly, giva PAF an edge but, western technology is PAFs actual need.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

For God sake, ppl, please stop saying we should buy or lease J-11s. It is still not completed. And China will not lease or sell this aircraft untill it has hundreds of these aircrafts serving in PLAAF.

VICTORA1,

OQAAB,
The J 10 is not the average plane that the chinese had been producing. It is a new design from scratch in which according to the pakistani ACM, alots of paf technical input has been given to make it a better quality and a product with a much much better finish than the previous endeavours.

Firstly, there is no doubt that J-10 is a very capable plane. The avionics systems, maneuverbility, performance, combat abilities make it invincible. But what I was trying to say is that, PAF cant go for this aircraft because it will be replacing 50% of its fleet with JF-17s. And after having this Chinese plane, I dont think J-10 option could be considered.

Mirage 2000-5 ..... NO, its expensive.
Gripen ..... NO, political reasons

And still there is no statement being made by PAF for the purchase of J-10.

Secondly, Uve said that J-10 has Pakistani input ??? Dude, If Pakistan really helped the J-10 project technically, then why didnt it helped its own joint project JF-17 technically ? The J-10 was a Chinese project, and not a joint venture.

A product that meets the PAF's requirements.

How can U say that it can meet PAFs requirments ? Do U know what the requirments are ?

Ok lets make it this way,

Can U tell me why PAF negotiated for Mirage 2000-5 and JAS-39 Gripen before the J-10 ?

Just the physical aspect of this plane is far different than anything else produced by the chinese. The appearnce alone is far superior to anything else in the inventory produced by china. Now don't get me wrong, appearance alone does not do much, but you know what, all these high end birds of prey have something different and unique about their shapes and appearances and the J 10 does make a statement of its own.

The J-10s aerodynamic structure isnt its weakness. It will be a good dogfighter as well as interceptor. Newer aircrafts like Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and JAS-39 Gripen have the same delta wings (short, but increased wingspan) and canards like J-10 has. It is more maneuverable then the Super Hornets. Even the US accepts this.

J-10 can definatly, giva PAF an edge but, western technology is PAFs actual need.

PAF negotiated J-10 after Mirage2000-5 cause they know that they dnt have to do much of a negotitation with Chinese.
Mirage2000-5 are not that expensive but PAF is still waiting for the price reduction. PAF is the largest Mirage user after France and I dnt think they are willing to risk this honor.

Pakistan did help in J-10 by providing info on various western designs specially of F-16. Pakistan dint provide much for FC-1 because it was already planned Jet. China made plans for FC-1 with USA later USA backed out. Design was already there and all Pakistan had to do was invest. But there must be few things that Pakistan might have provided China with.
Also take in notice that Chinese version is called FC-1 and Pakistani version is called JF-17. Pakistan is going to bring changes in JF-17 by putting western tech in it, this makes JF-17 superior to FC-1. They would be like two different Jets with same body.
JF means Joint fighter (from joint venture), this does not include name of China which means once Pakistan starts producing its own JF-17 in Pakistan they can get some other country to participate in upgrading the Jet (there are chances of France coming into the project). You must also take in accord that Pakistani JF-17 has room and capability for change. So it can also be upgraded to 4th Gen if Pakistan is capable of getting help from western countries (So far France and Italy are visible in the future project upgrading).

Pak is going to purchase Mirage2000-5 sooner or later. All those who r thinking that cause India has them PAk wont buy them, r wrong. If PAk purchases Mirage2000-5 it would be equally bad for India as India would be facing the similar defence than, but PAF wants a superior edge over India so they are waiting. USA has opened its military aid doors to PAk again & there is no doubt that Pak officials are already in negotiations with USA counterparts for F-16 and probably some thing better. (purchase of F-16s will be a secondary one- as PAF is lookin for some thing of 4th Gen).

Is far as J-10 is concerened over being PAF's requirment than all those who agree I think are right. J-10 was built to come to par with SU-27. It has also defeated SU-27 in a DogFight or the Chinese say so. India has SU-27 and Chinese J-10 can ingage them, so they automaticaly becomes PAF's requirment. Pak can also buy J-10 and put western technology in, and try to make it superior to the ones Chinese will hold.

Yo also said that PAF will be replacing 50% of its inventory with JF-17. I dnt c it that way. All those Jets which ppl believe will be grounded are being purchased even today in more quantity. Why would PAF be purchasing some thing that it might have to ground abt 6 years from now. They might all be used for bulk air defence or all out attack.