Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[gf0012-aust]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? PAF Picks JAS 39 Gripen!

they have denied haveing a deal, well thats true Pak hasn't approached to Buy them yet Musharaf is going to do that next month, its simple common sense.

Unless the rules of the game have changed, it's not the way business is done. Procurement is a long and laborious exercise. For major capital purchases (and in Aust that is anything that is valued at more than $20million) then it could take anything from 3 years to 15 years.

The induction for aircraft is typically a 10+ year process as the airforce goes through evaluations, fly offs, logistical issues etc...

Weapons systems purchases that I have been involved with have been a minimum of 12 months of talking before anyone sets foot to start testing and handling equipment.

Unless Pakistan does its major equipment procurement in a different fashion, no one would roll up and do an announcement without going through the prelims first. It's an issue of due diligence at both the technical and financial level. Heads of State never get involved until its the ribbon cutting ceremony.

 

[XEROX]

how many JF-17 are pakistan purchasing and at what cost

 

[adsH]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? PAF Picks JAS 39 Gripen!

they have denied haveing a deal, well thats true Pak hasn't approached to Buy them yet Musharaf is going to do that next month, its simple common sense.

Unless the rules of the game have changed, it's not the way business is done. Procurement is a long and laborious exercise. For major capital purchases (and in Aust that is anything that is valued at more than $20million) then it could take anything from 3 years to 15 years.

The induction for aircraft is typically a 10+ year process as the airforce goes through evaluations, fly offs, logistical issues etc...

Weapons systems purchases that I have been involved with have been a minimum of 12 months of talking before anyone sets foot to start testing and handling equipment.

Unless Pakistan does its major equipment procurement in a different fashion, no one would roll up and do an announcement without going through the prelims first. It's an issue of due diligence at both the technical and financial level. Heads of State never get involved until its the ribbon cutting ceremony.

GF your absolutely right but this is Pakistan we're Talking about probably the most controversial Ally in the War against terrorism, probably the most liked Dictatorship in the Western-world, Musharaf has to approve the sale and sign the deal. he is the procurement Chief, this is the Reason why his Position as the COAS the President, the Chief of Intelligence, the Chief of Procurement, is so controversial. he is very involved. PAF is desperate and does not want to take any chances of ruining its chances of acquiring the needed AC from any one. if they announce they are going for Grippens it would certainly Piss off Desault who has relatively been loyal to PAF, and it may cause PAF's choices to be narrowed down to only one jet the Grippens, which isn't even confirmed yet. there is alot of Politics behind this!!

 

[mysterious]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? PAF Picks JAS 39 Gripen!

Ah politics! The worst disease of all.

 

[mysterious]

Re: SWEDISH GOVERNMENT DENIES SELLING GRIPEN TO PAKISTAN

Musharraf hasnt even travelled to Sweden yet and we are all blabbing around over here. The news itself says that there has been no move by the PAF to acquire these planes!!! Of course there have been no moves, cuz the move comes when Musharraf visits Sweden end of this month or something! I doubt Sweden or Saab would ever deny a $5b deal just for the sake of neutrality. That isnt a worthy reason to fore-go such a good amount of hard buckz!!

We need a freaking translator here who can translate Swedish stuff here. We have several reports lying untranslated and I believe that is limiting the scope of our discussion here on Defense Talk!! And I mean, accurate translations of those reports would help us, not the type we see here. (Thanks to Webs though of making the effort of doing it himself or getting it done from somewhere).

Jf-17, would be around 150 'atleast' and 200 'max' to be inducted in to the PAF. 40-60 Gripens would be enough to fulfil the needs of PAF and its objectives. :smokingc:

 

[SABRE]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

This is a quotation from hindustan times who them selves have quoted GEO TV. I am also posting the link so you ppl read the whole thing but its not much different from what we have already read.



June16th


Pakistan hopes to acquire the Swedish JAS39 Gripen fighter-bomber to enable the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) maintain parity with its Indian counterpart, a private TV channel reported on Wednesday.

It said President Pervez Musharraf is visiting Sweden during his three-nation Scandinavian tour next month when the Gripen deal is likely to be discussed. Musharraf will also visit Denmark and Norway.

The Geo TV report said that Sweden, during foreign secretary Riaz Khokhar's visit last month, had agreed to sell the aircraft to Pakistan.

It contended that the Gripen was superior to the PAF's F-16 frontline combat jets. Pakistan had zeroed in on the Gripen after examining the French Rafael jet and the Euro fighter. This was after the US refused to sell additional F-16s to Pakistan, the report, quoting unnamed defence officials, said.

The Gripen would also help the PAF counter the MiG-27, MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF), it added.

Sweden would also transfer the technology for overhauling and maintaining the aircraft, the report said, quoting unnamed defence officials.

Pakistan has planned to buy 40 Gripens with midair refuelling capability that would give them a 3,000 km range and enable them strike deep into enemy territory, the report said.

They will be equipped with jamming transmitters and a variety of armament.

The PAF will be inducting the JF-17 Thunder that is being developed with Chinese help but this would not happen before 2007, while the Gripen would be available much before that, the report said.

Pakistan says the JF-17 matches the F-16.

The Gripen, which first flew in 1988, is deployed by the air forces of Sweden, South Africa, Hungary and the Czech Republic.

 

[SABRE]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

This is the link for the above post

Link http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_830841,00050002.htm

So the Swedz are saying yes to Foregin Secratary but they would say not to the President. Either they are crazy or we are crazy to make thing up.

Let me give you a political preception. There are some countries in the world which dislike Germany but more than that they hated USSR now Russia. These country prefer not to have defence link with friends of Russia. Warsow nations have always been against Russain more than Germany. They believe USSR sold them out to Germany. India just happens to be a friend of Russia and we just happen to not a friend of Russia. No friend of Russia is friend of Warsow countries. So we are their friends. During the Kargil conflict Pakistan Army was using many Sweden made wapons and sweden provided all the maintainance and spare parts even when the conflict was going on. Sweden not provide arms to countries engaged in Conflict. Ever woundered y India never considered Gripen over Mirage2000. Even if the did Sweden would have rejected forth right. Warsow nations are very sensitive abt friendz and foes.

The president probably dint have any plans for Europe on his way to USA but for these Jets he might have made a new plans for travel. and y not stop at norway for bit of shopping for the land forces. Than we go to USA ask them plead them for F-16s. This time we might just get them as Bush is going out. Republicans always do a big favor for Pakistan b4 leaving the white house. The cleanin of the Dust off the F-16s at Arozona Airfield and first time chacking ofthe Jets if they are in good sahpe or not in more than a decade gives an indication that F-16s are coming. I also hers that one of the Jet also made a take off for test. Why wuld USAF chack on PAFs F-16 if they r working or not. Its sugests that F-16s are coming. Hack they might even fly in with the President on the way back home as a protection and protocol. But lets see.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

saber, Pakistans original F-16's were eventually used for USAF aggressor squadron training. They were then replaced progressively due to airframe concerns. AFAIK most of the original Pakistani F-16's have been broken up.

 

[adsH]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

are you sure GF i think 8 or 10 of them are active with the USNavy and USAF training squadrons. the rest are lying dormant in the desert. but you would know better your alot more shall i say (Air quotes) "Connected". And saber F-16 never fly with the president. the Countries they the leaders fly over have arrangements of security. so if the president is over Germany its germany's responsibility to provide protection (i think so). so if the F-16 have been canabalized then that means Pred.Musharaf will have to buy new ones if he is allowed. the executive order MNNA has been granted so technically President Musharaf will try and Buy new jets i doubt there are any more blocks. its a case based on technicality does an executive order issued by the president weighs more then the Congress. we'll just have to see about that, Presd BUSH is goign to stay in office just trust me I think he has the Balls to Make Kery cry. Kerry looks like a stuck up Personality like he is above all the americans, while bush is a simple man with a strong link with his people, People trust a Southern Accent i guess, we have American members here, do they think Bush will win ? i think so But i'm british.

 

[SABRE]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

saber, Pakistans original F-16's were eventually used for USAF aggressor squadron training. They were then replaced progressively due to airframe concerns. AFAIK most of the original Pakistani F-16's have been broken up.

I had to start. Lets forget F-16s for a while untill Mushu steps on US soil. Concentrate on Gripen shall we. I pointed out that Foregin Scty did made a visit to sweden and has already brought up the Gripen deal to whcich Sweden agrees. Poland has just rejected Gripen for F-16s and SAAB are very hert about that. Like PAF needs jets despratly SAAB needs coustomers Despratly. I already said that it was Sweden that first approached PAF to consider Gripen in 1994 and I ve reconfirmed it. FS just made sure that if the deal if still on or not. Musharaf just jas to go to Sweden listen to Swedish conditions and if he agrees the paper would be ready and the next thing u know that F-16 pilots are leavibg for Sweden. Sweden will only deny the deal if Mushu disagrees with them and their legal contract.
On the other hand only European powers can restrict Sweden from delevering the Jets. So if Mushu agrees but Sweden doesnt than its NATO and Britian behind it.

I have also agin confirmed that JF-17 might be studied by NATO and France for the Jets development. - may be they will make front role, multi purpose JF-18 with Pak-jsut kidding. Its only the equipment upgrade like redar etc.

Defence Scty is also leaving fo sweden and will probably leave for USA the day after Mushu arrives in US.

Lets see, pray and hope.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

are you sure GF i think 8 or 10 of them are active with the USNavy and USAF training squadrons. the rest are lying dormant in the desert. but you would know better your alot more shall i say (Air quotes) "Connected". And saber F-16 never fly with the president. the Countries they the leaders fly over have arrangements of security. so if the president is over Germany its germany's responsibility to provide protection (i think so). so if the F-16 have been canabalized then that means Pred.Musharaf will have to buy new ones if he is allowed. the executive order MNNA has been granted so technically President Musharaf will try and Buy new jets i doubt there are any more blocks. its a case based on technicality does an executive order issued by the president weighs more then the Congress. we'll just have to see about that, Presd BUSH is goign to stay in office just trust me I think he has the Balls to Make Kery cry. Kerry looks like a stuck up Personality like he is above all the americans, while bush is a simple man with a strong link with his people, People trust a Southern Accent i guess, we have American members here, do they think Bush will win ? i think so But i'm british.

AdsH, the US decided to assign them to the USAF and US Navy to fill the Aggressor role. The (T)F-16N aggressor force was then cancelled by the USAF. The USN wanted a high-po aggressor aircraft and the Pakistani F-16s had a low airframe life, so they were seen as being ideally suited. The 28 aircraft were split between the USAF and the USN.

My understanding is that the airframes have taken a hiding in the DACT role and were being parked. All USAF DACT roles are being picked up by the Hornets.

and just to keep the F-16 advocates happy, here's the combat history of the PAK Falcons:

Pakistan was the second nation (after Israel) to use the F-16 in combat. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 in support of the pro-Soviet government in Kabul, which was being hard-pressed by Mujahadeen rebel forces, marked the start of a decade-long occupation. Mujahadeen rebels continued to harass the occupying Soviet military force as well as the forces of the Afghan regime that it was supporting. The war soon spilled over into neighboring Pakistan, with a horde of refugees fleeing to camps across the border in an attempt to escape the conflict. In addition, many of the rebels used Pakistan as a sanctuary from which to carry out forays into Afghanistan, and a steady flow of US-supplied arms were carried into Afghanistan from staging areas in Pakistan near the border. This inevitably resulted in border violations by Soviet and Afghan aircraft attempting to interdict these operations.

Between May 1986 and November of 1988, PAF F-16s have shot down at least eight intruders from Afghanistan. The first three of these (one Su-22, one probable Su-22, and one An-26) were shot down by two pilots from No. 9 Squadron. Pilots of No. 14 Squadron destroyed the remaining five intruders (two Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and one Su-25). Most of these kills were by the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but at least one (a Su-22) was destroyed by cannon fire. Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mamood is credited with three of these kills. At least one F-16 was lost in these battles, this one in an encounter between two F-16s and six Afghan Air Force aircraft on April 29th, 1987. However, the lost F-16 appears to have been an 'own goal', having been hit by a Sidewinder fired by the other F-16. The unfortunate F-16 pilot (Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan) ejected safely.

 

[mysterious]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I dont hate friendly-fire without a reason!

 

[umair]

Between May 1986 and November of 1988, PAF F-16s have shot down at least eight intruders from Afghanistan. The first three of these (one Su-22, one probable Su-22, and one An-26) were shot down by two pilots from No. 9 Squadron.

It's a great honour for me that I knew the leader of the 2 ship formation which engaged the Sukhois in the first PAF F-16 engagement.The late Air Commodore(at that time Squadron Leader) A.Hameed.Qadri.He died last year in an F-7 crash.The late air commodore was regarded as being one of the best pilots of his time in the PAF and was said to be 200% air chief material.
Btw he scored both the Su22 kills in the first engagement.The AN-26 was damaged by canon fire again by him.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

guys u disapoint me............most of u make the whole thing sound as a joke and at the same time none of u knows jack....squat bout wts happenin and wts goin on..........u poke fun of paf ,the president and Pakistan n than u ave the audasity of callin ur self Pakistani.....good goin guys .......u guys make us proud.
gfoo12 do u know when Pakistan baught the f-16s how long it took to induct the birds into the PAF????..............ill give u a hint our boys completed there training and complete conversion in 6 months........so ur figure of 3-15 is ludacrus.........and believe u me wt ever paf decides on will be in operational service before the jf-17 comes into service in 2006/2007.
as unlike most other the Pak armed forces dont muck around........if they want somthin they negociate and anounce when the deal is through.
n yes there is nothin wrong with my translation ...........i ave already translated it.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

there are countries like india who even after more than 20 years of negociations and political wrangling were not able to finalize the advaced jet trainers deal n the result being the daily crashes and the loss of life and confidance for no reason

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

gfoo12 do u know when Pakistan baught the f-16s how long it took to induct the birds into the PAF????..............ill give u a hint our boys completed there training and complete conversion in 6 months........so ur figure of 3-15 is ludacrus.

You need to read and understand a thread before coming back with inappropriate emotional responses. Procurement process timeframes have nothing to do with pilot training times.. :mad

 

[webmaster]

:help

Fieldmarshal: http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php#15

 

[adsH]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Hey guys does any one know what FeildMarshal is so pissed, he seems like on a defense, but no one is attacking him or Pakistan or PAF here. were all having a nice conversation. :

 

[P.A.F]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

:

 

[SABRE]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Hey guys does any one know what FeildMarshal is so pissed, he seems like on a defense, but no one is attacking him or Pakistan or PAF here. were all having a nice conversation. :

He needs a time out. Too much time on the internet specialy here :