Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

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Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

aussie PAF is kind of desperate. they would press on priority delivery. and i think conversion courses can easily be accelerated, apparently they already have one Grippen in Pakistan for evaluation, that gripen is for evaluation purposes only, so that would mean that they (PAF) have a trained pilot for the grippen, so they may have a syllabus for the conversion course sorted out, the Induction should be nippy if these facts are in-fact true, but i would agree with your assertion that it takes a long time to induct new AC.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

apparently they already have one Grippen in Pakistan for evaluation, that gripen is for evaluation purposes only

is there a source for this one? I've been having a trawl of likely sites and can't find anything. :eek

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

apparently they already have one Grippen in Pakistan for evaluation, that gripen is for evaluation purposes only

is there a source for this one? I've been having a trawl of likely sites and can't find anything. :eek

:lol it was on Pak def i cant provide a source they have PAF personnel blabering stuff there


To Umair
hey umair i found the PAF officer that was In riyadh he was working for the RSAF, he was the father of one of my best friend. i don't know if you know him hes retired now, well last time i had heard from him he was in Islamabad. his naem i think is
Wng. Cdr. Syed Sa'ad Akhtar Hatmi
No. 25 Squadron
// this is an old rank and old details they may have changed
on 05-Dec-1971 he scored two kills on F-6 and the IAF pilots that got shot down were on an SU-27 according to him there was a third one but he actually legged it before he could come around.

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

ADSH,
One pilot that can fly the plane is not substantial enough---there is a whole training protocol,process, procedure, mindset involved in getting indicted to a new purchase like that. The training brings about a total change in the mindset of the pilot, the ground crew, the trainers, the people who direct them to the battle into the enemy territory or the protection of own targets.

The purpose of the training is also to make you think like the person who designed the plane. What the plane could do for you---you have to act and think like the swede---for the man and machine to fly in cohesion, to the best of its ability, the flyer needs to look through the eyes of the designer to take advantage of the technology.

Pakistani pilots will have to do the same thing that they did at Hill AFB during the F 16 training---just start from the scratch. There is no other way around it and that is what they would be doing if the deal goes through.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I think the Gripen that is in Pakistan for evaluation purposes is there for this purpose only - for the PAF pilots and personnel to see what the aircraft is like and what do the pilots think after (maybe) flying it a couple o' times n stuff like that. :cop

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Mysterious,
I am a car salesman by proffession. On my resume I have the exception of working at the largest honda dealership in the world at one time-- the dealeship selling over 1200 cars a month with a stock of maybe 2000 to 4000 vehicles available on the lot at any given time and I was a very successful proffessional.

Young man, pakistanis have absolutely no clue as to how you can negotiate with the americans. If you used the old term, americans are categorized to be that of 'warrior / merchant' mentality. They will go to a war if they have to and they will make a deal any time they can.

There is a great american saying in my proffession and this is how it goes 'a sale has been made when a salesman meets a customer---either the salesman convinces the customer to buy a car or the customer convinces the salesman that he is not in the market for a vehicle'. Somebody has sold the other on their idea. Buddy, americans are a sucker for a good sales pitch---and if the sales pitch is extraordinary they would love you even if you had them---you know why---it would give them the drive to go make some more---only in america my man.

We firmly believe in the ' BUY OR DIE ' philosophy. I am going to call the customer till he buys the car from me or till he buys from someone else. Americans believe that if you want it bad enough, you would find the ways to get.

My president---Musharraf---God bless him, had the greatest oppurtunity of selling himself and his country to the americans on prime time TV but failed to deliver the goods. His advisors didnot train him to make a show out of his appearnce----take control---speak in the first person terms---sell your past collaborations, your being dumped aside and then in the lamplight again. sell yourself, tell them what you can do and what the country needs, get the american public involved in the picture, sell your product and ask them to be fair. But no---you know why? The pakistani pride got involved. American people are the decision makers, american media is the king maker---. American people are extremely wonderful people, but you need to know what turns them on. FOR THAT, YOU NEED TO BE A CARSALESMAN.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

That's all I ever said. It takes more than 12 months to build a single fighter these days and most aircraft facilities are flat out delivering 12-14 aircraft a year these days. I admitted that some elements of military capability can be fast-tracked didn't I? But not an entire fighter jet acquisition program. I stand by my prediction. If PAF were to sign a contract for Gripen this week, barring acquiring already existing examples, you would not see new-build Gripens in PAF service before 2007 and IOC for these aircraft before 2008/2009.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

ADSH,
One pilot that can fly the plane is not substantial enough---there is a whole training protocol,process, procedure, mindset involved in getting indicted to a new purchase like that. The training brings about a total change in the mindset of the pilot, the ground crew, the trainers, the people who direct them to the battle into the enemy territory or the protection of own targets.

The purpose of the training is also to make you think like the person who designed the plane. What the plane could do for you---you have to act and think like the swede---for the man and machine to fly in cohesion, to the best of its ability, the flyer needs to look through the eyes of the designer to take advantage of the technology.

Pakistani pilots will have to do the same thing that they did at Hill AFB during the F 16 training---just start from the scratch. There is no other way around it and that is what they would be doing if the deal goes through.

IF such a deal is going to take place i would think PAF would have an adequate plan in place. they need those AC as soon as possible. I do agree they would have to do conversion course, but your now talking about the OLD PAF days when it didn't have an adequate Training regime in Place i would think theyd have a better system in place now. PAF is known for its training. But i don't doubt for a second that they would need extensive familiarization training and conversion courses. But trust me they Pick up very very quickly. these are handpicked people out of the Thousands and thousand that try to make it as a pilot in PAF. they are sharp and very Bright. Your forgetting something here, this is not the USAF or the RAF, these people have limited resources, so the Western AC only come in small amounts, they have to maximize what they have by Useing Clever Tactics and Very VERY, and i mean Extremely Sharp, suitable Pilots. Why do you think An F-16 in PAF's inventory has never been shot down its been in a dozens of conflicts. its not that its the most brilliant AC in the World, its the Training and the Suitability of these pilot that makes themm the People they are. They are handpicked to fly these top 40 jets out of the thousands of Pilots, but you get my point, these are not Novices most of the pilots who would go through the Conversion Training should be Experienced and Well decorated Veterans. Aside from From all this I am well aware what kind of Process they (Pilots) have to go through to train on new Equipments , but We fail to see the one fact and that is that when you look at a RAF pilot who would get trained on a EF2000, well he might not be the best or the Best what the RAF has to offer(so he takes his time RAF is an Equal Opportunity Employer, how ever they have a fiver hour test for selections). but when we look at these small AF's they need to Maintain a high level of competence so there selection process are very Tight strict, suitability Mental ability IQ level, G tolerance are vital. I know for a fact that Here In RAF the Requirement are not as stringent as the German AF. so what i am trying to say is that not all AF have Equivalent selection process as a reslut the ability of each individual's to grasp a Conversion syllabus differs from force to force.

Sorry about the size of my reply !!!

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

That's all I ever said. It takes more than 12 months to build a single fighter these days and most aircraft facilities are flat out delivering 12-14 aircraft a year these days. I admitted that some elements of military capability can be fast-tracked didn't I? But not an entire fighter jet acquisition program. I stand by my prediction. If PAF were to sign a contract for Gripen this week, barring acquiring already existing examples, you would not see new-build Gripens in PAF service before 2007 and IOC for these aircraft before 2008/2009.

they might lease some (for the short Run), but that would mean more Resources down the drain, resources that are hard to acquire for PAF.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sorry, you won't get them early, there are other customers in the queue, and unless they elect to abandon parts of their orders, Pakistan would be 3rd, 4th in the delivery cycle.

People are severely underestimating the complexity of how these issues evolve. Pakistan is unlikely to see any aircraft within 3 years unless all current customers are willing to stand back. Nations suffering block obsolescence issues tend to be selfish for their national interest, I would think that it's highly unlikely that anyone will abandon their spot.

For example, Sth Africa has immediate political concerns about chinese influence in the region, irrespective of China not delivering to some of the more rambunctious occupants of the continent, the SAF will want to get planes early, train early, develop working doctrine and be prepared for any unfortunate incidents that may arise with Angola, Zimbabwe, Nigeria etc...

You cannot fast track the plane production process when other customers are in the loop. fast tracking training - irrespective of pilot calibre is an inherently dangerous thing to do. A pilot is worth $2million in training outlay, it's a darn sight harder to replace competent pilots than platforms

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sorry, you won't get them early, there are other customers in the queue, and unless they elect to abandon parts of their orders, Pakistan would be 3rd, 4th in the delivery cycle.

People are severely underestimating the complexity of how these issues evolve. Pakistan is unlikely to see any aircraft within 3 years unless all current customers are willing to stand back. Nations suffering block obsolescence issues tend to be selfish for their national interest, I would think that it's highly unlikely that anyone will abandon their spot.

For example, Sth Africa has immediate political concerns about chinese influence in the region, irrespective of China not delivering to some of the more rambunctious occupants of the continent, the SAF will want to get planes early, train early, develop working doctrine and be prepared for any unfortunate incidents that may arise with Angola, Zimbabwe, Nigeria etc...

You cannot fast track the plane production process when other customers are in the loop. fast tracking training - irrespective of pilot calibre is an inherently dangerous thing to do. A pilot is worth $2million in training outlay, it's a darn sight harder to replace competent pilots than platforms

i doo agree with all that !! a pilot is always harder to replace!! and its heart wrenching for an Air-force to loose a member.

 

[umair]

Nope! but mebbe my uncle knows him.BTW that was the SU-7's biggest advantage, it would at low level run like a dog with his tail on fire :

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Guys,
One major advantage that pakistani pilots had at Hill air force base during their idictment to F 16's was their proficiency in the english language. For that reason alone they were learning the procedures faster than other foreign pilots.

Americans have a different mindset than that of the swedes. Their engineering designs and styles are different. Pakistan had been exposed to the american technology for a long time sabres, F104's, B 57's F 16's Boeings etc etc etc. So it is easy to adjust to the american machinery and operate it faster than any other. We have been looking through the eyes and the minds of the americans when operating these items, now if this deal with the Gripen goes through---you got to change your mindset and start thinking like a swede-----and I will tell you---that may be the most difficult part---many a superstars have floundered making the transition from one set of engineering to another.

I personally know many a superstar salespeople fail when they switch from selling one make of car to another.

Even though the PAF is a very capable and potent force but still the time it takes to train an individual to a new concept cannot be cut short. It is just like getting your bachelor's degree. Maybe one or two students out of fifty may get on the fast track and complete it six months sooner than the others but then that does not set the standard to get the degree.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Two things they are PAYING for a very Expensive customized AC, Which has been evaluated BY PAF personnel and was evaluated about 10 years ago, Second its Jointly sold and developed By BAE (British Defense Giant) and Saab (swedish) the Export Models of the grippens use alot of BAe Equipment and all manuals and Systems and pilot training would be In english, English being the Natural Language. Now about American Weapons being different, well it isn't, i don't know if nato Countries have some sort of Similarity in there AC cockpits but i know some of the missiles Rails and systems are similar, the Grippen uses alot of american INput which can be substituted by British and French Equipment. training is matter of Conversion and Familiarity. I do believe that its the Pilot that makes an AC deadly in Combat, its not necessarily the platform not nessercerly (in all) cases. Platform does have a bearing but i would think its limted. if you have a F16u Block 50 with an poorly/Untrained Pilot flying the AC and you have an indian Mig 21 (Israeli mods) with the Best pilot flying it, you would see the Mig 21 AC win the Dog fight for sure. in a dog fight every thing relies on Your Situation awareness ie feild of view. radars play a secondary role, Eyesight is key, the faster you spot a target the quicker you can think about it. experience is desirable, but a very strong training in Dog fight is important (it is very important to know the limitations and bouderies of your platform and the ways it handles, know its possible flaws and weaknesses)
then the most important of all is a good AtoA missile, but if you run out of it you'r a sitting duck so you need a good size longer lasting gun. i know what People say here, that Dog fights are a thing of the past BVR is the new "thing". But they said the same thing during the Vitnam War. that is the reason why RAF has still got a Bigg element on Dog fights in there Pilot training syllabus.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I come back after a long time n c no new development on JAS-39 Gripen being inducted in PAF.

Its getting boaring n boaring here....do some thin ppl

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

we can't.. we just gotta pray that we at least get something good like jas-39 or f-16. (thats all we can do at this moment in time. :alian

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I come back after a long time n c no new development on JAS-39 Gripen being inducted in PAF.

Its getting boaring n boaring here....do some thin ppl

President Musharraf is leaving on the 4th of July for Sweden and will negotiate to sell Gripens to PAF.

Lets hope for the best. :smokingc:

 

[yasin_khan]

President musharaf and PM jamali had promised to give atleast 2 billion dollars.if they give it to PAF then it will be easy to induct new air craft.

 

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Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

i think it was 2.5 billion and its available to them!! but they would still need political clearance to spend such an amount, I guess NAB would do some poking around.

 

[yasin_khan]

In my opinion if we got money then the good choice will be Rafle bcoz it is a multi role and fourth generation fighter.
and if we have low budget then the only option will be J10 with tot.