Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[fieldmarshal]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

look buddy dont get me wrong.......i aint pissed at any one or any thing.......i am disapointed........reason being none of us has the faintest idea bout wts goin on .....the best we are able to offer is an aducated guess..but we still make it sound as if we r the athority..aint that somthin.

n mod dont u recon the time frame that u ave given is too long..in that time the sys has every chance to become obsalete............if ur talkin bout from the deveopment to its induction than i am sorry n i apolagise......but if u talkin bout inductin a weapon sys off the shelf in 3-15 years than thats the wrong way to go bout things.............and an other thing where in aus do u live cuz i live in melb.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

n mod dont u recon the time frame that u ave given is too long..in that time the sys has every chance to become obsalete............if ur talkin bout from the deveopment to its induction than i am sorry n i apolagise......but if u talkin bout inductin a weapon sys off the shelf in 3-15 years than thats the wrong way to go bout things.............

fm, it does take 3-15 years to induct a major capital weapon system into militaries such as Aust, UK, France, Germany and the US etc... Just have a look at any major purchase and see how long it takes for them to plan and then "drive" one away. The Russians average 12-15 on some of their aircraft.

today I'm in melb, next week I'll be in Canberra, the week after I'll be in Singapore. I'm a bit like Gulliver.

I'd hope that when I'm discussing things its based on educated opinion and/or prior experience, I'm not that big on conspiracy, rumour and innuendo, it goes to custard too quickly and then you can be left looking an absolute berk. I'm a more patient kind of guy.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

ur time period pertains to the time it takes for research development trials and induction...........that will take u 10-15 years in peace times ie.............but than it all depends on the circumstance..case in point is ww2 and the weapons deveoped by the axis and the allies eg begining of the war the germans were operating panters2 and by the end of it they were operation the tigers and jagd tiger with its 120 mm guns...............and the duration for there deveopment is neither 5-10-15 year............y go so far back just recently....... thermobaric bomb, which was inducted from the drawing board into the usaf arsanal with in 6 months..........
so when i discuss things they are for sure based on my experience and learnings .......any ways good on ya mate :smokingc:

 

[webmaster]

:help

Fieldmarshal: http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php#15

Fieldmarshal, I did mean this. The reply will be deleted if it contains excessive ........................

I can live with this ... here and there but ever two words ...................... is no good and needs to be taken care of, please.

Thank You, enjoy!

 

[mysterious]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Gary is right! 10 years is a good amount of time to induct a large number of new aircraft - say, around 50 aircraft!! I dont think Gripens can be produced faster than 5 or 6 aircraft per year (Gary?). And then the logistics, getting used to them and the aircraft itself, etc, etc, etc. Phew! :smokingc:

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Guys,
All of you super geniuses are missing something--either nobody told you about it or you guys simply forgot about the event.

Yes the F 16 purchase of the 80's. Some of you might say what is this guy talking about---well here it is. In the U S, some people firmly believe that had pakistan signed the deal for the F 16's with General Dynamics directly and not the U S government, the F 16 sanctions maynot have taken place because it was the integrity of General Dynimics that would have been at stake and the local congressman and senator would have seen to it that didnot happen. But incidently, the deal was made with the U S government, who got paid, General Dynamics build the planes and got paid as well.

So what Pakistan must do now is to sign the deal with SAAB GRIPPEN directly and let them sell it to their government. No manufacturer wants to rescind on its contract once the deal gets going. There is a lots of reputation at stake for the manufacturer. I don't think there would be any law in Sweden preventing for Saab to make the deal on principal. The government may approve it or may not, that is secondary.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

web master ur bring unfair............i am having a very civilized conversation with gfoo12-aust.......i ave not been abusive or any thing ,if gfoo12 feels hard done by any thing i wrote than i do apoligise for it and tell u that it was all unintentional, but there is nothin like it.........i just dont agree with gf0012s argument n ave given reasons with eg for it.

 

[webmaster]

FM, my problem is with the ".............." not how you are discussing.

I have not read anything abusive from you, which is good. Keep it up.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I don't think there would be any law in Sweden preventing for Saab to make the deal on principal. The government may approve it or may not, that is secondary.

The swedes have a policy of not selling or supporting combat weapons systems to countries that are actively engaged in hostility. It's their way of keeping a balance. The issue is whether they consider the friction between India and Pakistan as one which will be exacerbated by selling arms to one over the other. The Eyrie OTOH may not constitute an active combat system as it's a passive interrogater.

BTW, what is the news on Eyrie??

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Fieldmarshall you're acting a bit foolish. It takes longer than 12 months to simply build a jet these days. Let alone procure a fleet. Dio you honestly think Pakistan simply chooses a jet, pays the money and they magically appear? The pilots do their "6 months training" and that's it the whole fleet and pilots are operational? IF Pakistan were to acquire the Gripen and IF Sweden allows SAAB to sell them to Pakistan (despite Victoria1's thoughts otherwise) Pakistan would be unlikely to receive their first Gripen before 2007/2008 at the earliest, and that's if they signed a contract this week. Pakistan would not have it's Gripen fleet operational before 2009/2010 at best. Australia will be signing the contract for it's JSF's in 2006/2007 unless some disaster befalls the program before then. Even IF the program runs on time we won't get any JSF's before 2012 at the earliest and it will probably take until 2015 before the JSF is fully operational. Now the JSF is a little different, it's still under development, whereas the Gripen is mostly developed and in service (though it has yet to reach full operational capability and the Level 3 Gripen is still being developed) and could be delivered a bit quicker, however you'll be waiting 2-3 years to even get a Gripen...

 

[xxxyyy]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

US? NAH!

Someone from EU? I don't know!

Pakistan's airforce is outdated and at a very dangerous point! Pakistan needs to replace its ACs as soon as possible. India is getting more mirages, more latest russian planes.

What are pakistanis waiting on? Fc1? super7? J10? Is that all left for them? Any chance of getting that eurofighter?

Dude, US is the only country that can give Pak weapons below prize. When a country's economy is based on US aid ($3 billion latest figure), the idea of buying $30-35 million plane sounds bit funny. It's funny how you all think that Pak can and should only compete in arms race with India, what about economy, may be pak should compete with India in that field as well. Atleast, then PAF won't have to rely on US Aid to buy Euro Fighter.



Admin Edit: Before you post on the forums, atleast get the figures right? IT just causes confusion and irrelevent replies!!!]

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: UPDATED: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

well the americans owe us the 3billion i recon for the services that we have done for em in there war on terror. It aint for free bud cuz there aint no free lunches.n the economy is goin alrigh and give it a couple of more years n our gdp will be at 8 percent right there with india. if india can get it there ie
n aussie digger n every 1 else guys u all have not been able to understand my point n my fingers r too tired to type it again so wt i suggest is that u scroll up a bit n read wt i ave written, i even ave stated my point with examples and i stand by wt i say.
ifthe deal goes through than ur in for a shock :smokingc:

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Feild marshal itt will take time to induct anyting that has never been Inducted before thats why PAF wants to aquire F-16 new generation for the short term Solution. from my point of view i see F-16 the quick fix!! its a multirole Hihg performance low Maintaince cheap AC. trianing is in place has a great record in battle. so i would think PAF would definitely be leuerd (spelling) into buying them if it Is granted access, but there is another Fact and that is that PAF last choice (1994) for High performance Jets were the Grippens when thery were refused clearance form the US due to pressllers amendment, which restricted any military related Sale. i guess PAF is working on its last choice that was the grippen, lets wait and see what the choice really is, ITS only 6 days away the decision should be made public unless PAK HAS changed its mind and would like to delay announcements. I would assume that the Grippen may have accumilated some extra abilities since BAE is a partner in the developments and Upgrades.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

adsh i dont mind waitin n i guess u dont either.as we know haste makes waste. n we dont want that or do we.

 

[lalith prasad]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

same in india's case since su30mki could not be acquired immediately india acquired the russian air force su-30k and then upgraded them to mki standard it took about 5 years to receive the first batch of su 30mki.

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Guys,
Swedes may have whatever policy they want to implement, but if pakistan wants to spend 5-6 billion dollars, then we need a change to benefit us---you can't take our money and make us live by your morality.

But knowing my countrymen very well, pakistan may again fall into that trap one more time. Pakistani government is a very poor negotiator----absolutely pathetic I would say. They can't sell a bottle of water to a thirsty in the desert. Pakistan had this tremendous oppurtunity of getting whatever it needed at the start of war in afghanistan----but totally screwed it up. They simply could not negotiate out of pride and dignity-----and pride is a killer. Should have kept their pride and hired some paksiatni car salesmen living and working in the U S of A to do the bargaining for them. Pakistanis didnot even ask for the F 16's initially---.

If it was me, I the car salesman would have hounded my american parteners relentlessly every single time we met, for my F 16's. I would have put a price on the head of the al qaeda most wanted--the head price would have been a certain number of planes for a certain guy---if not agreed---catch the guys and shoot him right away. No planes, no live al qaeda and go all out to catch any al qaeda operative. Show sincerety in your actions and hound your customer for what you want. But our leaders can only bully their own, they have absolutely no clue how to work a car deal with the americans.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

You make it sound as simple as a board game!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Guys,
Swedes may have whatever policy they want to implement, but if pakistan wants to spend 5-6 billion dollars, then we need a change to benefit us---you can't take our money and make us live by your morality.

But knowing my countrymen very well, pakistan may again fall into that trap one more time. Pakistani government is a very poor negotiator----absolutely pathetic I would say. They can't sell a bottle of water to a thirsty in the desert. Pakistan had this tremendous oppurtunity of getting whatever it needed at the start of war in afghanistan----but totally screwed it up. They simply could not negotiate out of pride and dignity-----and pride is a killer. Should have kept their pride and hired some paksiatni car salesmen living and working in the U S of A to do the bargaining for them. Pakistanis didnot even ask for the F 16's initially---.

If it was me, I the car salesman would have hounded my american parteners relentlessly every single time we met, for my F 16's. I would have put a price on the head of the al qaeda most wanted--the head price would have been a certain number of planes for a certain guy---if not agreed---catch the guys and shoot him right away. No planes, no live al qaeda and go all out to catch any al qaeda operative. Show sincerety in your actions and hound your customer for what you want. But our leaders can only bully their own, they have absolutely no clue how to work a car deal with the americans.

To some extent I'd have to say I agree with you. Pakistan had a golden opportunity to ramp up their requirements in the early stages, and then maintain the pressure. Of all the Islamic countries, in a real sense it was in a stronger position than any of the others.

I'm not sure whether that advantage has been lost, but it has been diminished. pride and focussing on a perceived loss of face is an absolute killer in this scenario.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Fieldmarshall I have read your post. Irregardless of how quickly Pakistani pilots can be trained, you won't have any aircraft to train them on for years. It takes a long time to build an aircraft these days. Their complexity is unbelievable and it takes a long time. Australia has recently ordered 22 Tiger Armed Recon Helicopters, a simpler aircraft than the Gripen. These aircraft were ordered in December 2001. We won't get the first 1 until December 2004 and we won't have an operational capability until 2006. An operational capability means you have all the maintenance, support, logistics and weapons capability online as well as sufficiently trained pilots, mechanics etc to actually operate your aircraft. Not only must your pilots be able to simply fly the aircraft, they must have trained in tactical exercises with the aircraft and your air force must have developed it's doctrine (ie: how it will employ the aircraft) and the other elements of your force must have trained with it. All of this takes time. It is possible to "fast track" some military capabilities these days, but not something as complicated as a new fighter jet. Believing otherwise simply contradicts reality.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

look aussie bud, the thing bout paf pilots trained in 6months was an example n just that, so plz take it as an example. now if u ave read my post more closly u will see some other examples i ave coated eg the ww2 example n the thermobaric bomb which was inducted in 6months from the drawing board. so it all depends. aus has no such external threat only if it does not go out lookin for any. so has no need for weapons in the first place as no one will come for aus, so its basically wastin time n money. peace :smokingc: