Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[Libyan]

yet another Pakistani orbat thread, This one based on reality though.

30 f-16 (could rise to 110 if belgium sells them their surplus)
150 fc-1's (on order)

In the mean time

Pakistan needs to seriously consider what to do about its mirage3/5 fleet
these aircraft are believe it or not very capable basic platforms, and can sucessfully have their airframes reset to zero flight hours.


Pakistan should with all speed Fit Much of the avionics of the Fc-1 into the Mirage 3/5 frame along with the engine (much like the south african cheetah upgrade with the russian assistance with the rd-33/smr-95 engine) this would simplify the logistics and pilot training of the whole force immagine this..


Ultimate Pak Af 2006-2012



90 Mirage 3 Upgraded High altitude long range interceptors

110 f-16 Multi role fighters

150 fc-1s Multi Role Light fighters




Strike


40 mirage 5 twin seat long range strike aircraft

90 a-5/m? ground attack aircraft




Training


110 f-7t (f-7 aircraft modified into combat capable trainers)

60 k-8 karakorum

200 supermuskark/mushark/safari


Pakistan should seriously consider the superior design of the Delta winged Mirages


The Upgraded Mirage (such as the cheetah when fitted with mig-29 engine ) would have a higher altitude, reduced weight and reduced fuel consumption, enabling the Fc-1 to have someone higher up looking out for the su-30's?

and dare I say it The Mirage 2000 compared to the upgraded Mirage would come out second best as the Mirage 2000 is underpowered with the m53 engine.


Lets compare

mirage 3 is inferior to the su-30's but has some good things going for it


f-16 is superior to indian mig-23's and mig-29's

fc-1 is superior to the mig-21 and the lca as the lca isnt flying yet


Chinese a-5s were reportedly purchased for under 1 million usd per airframe, pakistan cant afford to miss packing a few dozen more up and fit them with domestic avionics and weapons in order to lower the cost per unit prices of other avionics as well as keeping those defense workers with jobs.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Belgian F-16 MLUs are gona rock! :smokingc:

 

[Libyan]

Re: yet another Pakistani orbat thread, This one based on reality though.

lets see if this works BEFORE

AFTER

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

How old are these belgian F-16's and how much would the lot cost :?:

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Well atleast with the MLU, those F-16s would become way much better than the current Pakistani ones! They wont cost that much as the logistics are already in place. :smokingc:

 

[adsH]

Re: yet another Pakistani orbat thread, This one based on reality though.

the Mirages 3/5 just recently got Upgraded again in 1999 i think those got blocked too when the Coupe occurred but the french could not hold the property of Pakistan so they had to release them!!

I think Pakistan wants new F-16 Block 50 or 60 i think those would become frontline fighters, they would cheap to run as the better part of the logistics is in place, pilot training is in place. so induction would realy quick and simple in a matter of speaking.

the Current F-16 have slightly beeen updated i think it was the radar that was upgraded but thats about it. Belgium only has 40 F-16 that they wan't to sell.

 

[SABRE]

PAF should buy all those 40, just kidding but think about it all 40 jets+38 in service(+27 still in USA). We have got a great front than. Not possible though, too much finance dont u think.

Anyways how good is Mirage 5, I know they were developed in 1960's & upgraded in 1970s. PAF also bought new ones & is going to buy 10 of Lebenies Mirage-5 in France. Why r v upgrading & buying older version. Get the Mirrage 2000-5 instead & also some Mirrage 2000-N(Two pilot Jet).

Anyways the PAF Chief is considering following Jets:

1)SU-27 (Few SU-35 & SU-37 aswell, i think)
2)MiG-29
3)Mirrage 2000-5
4)Grippen.

I hope they get any one of these JEts for the front role fighters.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

I have no idea where you get all these wierd thoughts from Saber!!! WHY on earth would the PAF air chief think of getting 'any' type of Sukhois and Mig-29s when he knows India operates the same and is much more wel versed with the type of aircrafts in question than Pakistan?!?!?! Quit creating new twists in the story will you?? ONLY three things are under consideration; J-10, Mirage 2000-5 and Gripen (the fourth possibly being F-16 MLUs) and thats about it! End of story. And what 27 F-16s in the US are you talking about? Forget those man! Those are in service with the US forces and if Pakistan wants new F-16s now, it will have to pay (some might say 'again') for them!!! Now, is that hard for anyone around here to understand? I made it 'as simple as could be'!! So now quit dragging this already over-dragged thread guys. Lay it to rest! :smokingc:

 

[Soldier]

Re: Mirage 2000

Rumors have been that pakistan plans to acquire mirage 2000 in a deal paid for by the UAE .. or we pass on our own mirage 2000 to the pakistanis

DM

We do not care about rumours bud, talk about facts and figures.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

do you know what i think?, when the US assigned MNNA on to pakistan, Prior to that!, Pak was moving ahead with its plan to aquire Mirage 2000-5 mk2 but when it got assigned that title, i believe it was a big shock to Pakistan and INdia!!, then there were series of reports coming out, that Pakistan was revising its shopping list and its wish list to the US to test the boundies of this new found Love!! Kasuri just made a trip to the US to deliver in person the Shopping list . so i wouldn't be surprised that Pak would bargain for those old F-16 by asking the US to pay the Amount as a grant towards there new F-16 order if pak goes ahead for new F-16, i think that would be coupled with the Condition Pak will send troops to iraq, this is what i think Pak will use its leverage as much as it can, becasue i see Presd Musharaf As an Object orientated and Opportunist type Person, he always uses what ever he has and trys to exploit its limts. this is quiet a decent and acceptable assertion wouldn't you guys think so. i have been reading the news about pakistan ever day for a long time and the twist you see in foreign policies are so hard to follow but they all make sense if you put them together!! its actually like a movie.

to answer Sabers question. those Mirages are a fine piece of AC, many Air-forces have phased these out as a result pak was going around buying them!!, they are a fine AC unrivaled in there time. i would say these AC do form a potent recon and Defense AC, they are updated and restored regularly because PAF intends to keep them in service and to keep there lethality they have to be updated regularly i think the last update was 1999 prior to the military cooup. its probably due another update but i bet Pakistan would perform the upgrade its self using JF-17 avionics and just getting a more expensive Radar Kit.

 

[corsair7772]

Sabers point about the Sukhois is valid as we can obtain them from sources other than Russia if our front line fighter shopping trip gets buggered up.
BTW Libyan nice mirage pictures. Wud luv to see these hi altitude babies flying. We can buy these older mirages from several nations like the south american ones like the turks did with the F-104s n look at the way they upgraded the fighter in2 the next generation.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Getting Sukhois doesnt even make sense! Why would you want to buy Su-27s (forget the Su-30s, Pakistan cant get them in anyway) when the Indians are already more used to using that aircraft while Pakistan would have to setup the entire logistics base for those aircraft plus it will take time to get familiar with the aircraft. It just doesnt make any sense! I'm with adsh on this topic!! F-16s are the most likely procurement, with J-10 or Gripen being the leading alternatives on PAF's shopping list. Thats about it. :smokingc:

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

LIKE I SAID BEFORE. MY MONEYS ON THE GRIPENS OR THE MIRAGE 2000'S

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

you know a batch of SU 27 is not a bad Idea they can get help in Repairing and maintaining them by the Chinese to Use them are Aggressors to train PAF F-16 pilots against such incoming aggressor, like an Aggressor squadron, it would give two thing to PAF pilots, first the INside knowledge how the AC behaves inflight and second how it feels or how its weakness can be exploited while flying against it. but it would be an expensive purchase becasue its logistical cost could well exceed its worth to PAF. But main fleet F-16 are the most Probable answer.

 

[SABRE]

can any one compare JF-17 with Mirage 3,5 & 2000-5 after all they all are one man (pilot) fighters.

Anyways PAF should go 4 Mirrage 2000-5. PAF pilots have greater experiance on Mirrage than on F-16s. They have not only flew on Mirrage alot of times but have fought a war with them & had great results. Specially at Pathankot, India. Mirrages during the day (B-52 during the night) alomost erased the Pathankot sector out of the Indian map. So y is PAF hasitent to mirrage 2000-5.

I think there has been some understanding on F-16s with USA that is why PAF put the mirreage 2000-5 idea on hold.

& adsH thanks for the reply. I also read that Mirrage-5 are quite good. But if they are so good why r other countries getting rid of them?
I also read that the upgraded Mirrage-5's performane is equall to India's MiG29 & SU-27. How true is that?

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

I wouldn't know much about the comparison but i know this that These AC may not be the most maneuverable but they are the Fastest Sprinters at Low level Flights this gives them the Ability to out run its Opponent. Today when i was at my gym benching some weight, i thought of this very question you just asked me i knew some one was going to bring it up, about why are other countries getting rid of these i would say there can be various reasons some are that they see litle point in keeping old AC which require more maintenance, or that the need for such ac are gone, or that the AC is too old and not updated, I think PAF uses these AC for mainly Recon and Marine Roles for delivering Anti ship weapons, it a good ac for that reason i wouldn't be surprised it stays in service for some time with PAF, they have regularly been updated.i would say the JF-17 is better at maneuverability and Dogfights and the MIrage good for recon so they are both very different AC.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

man u guys are amazin..........even my dogs got more brains than some of the ppl above..seriously.
for the joker who says that iaf would kick paf ass..........well bud if u look at the stats of all the three wars before ie analysis em, ull see that the stats were the same ..........iaf was stronger larger and beter equipped........but paf still kicked ass .....even in 71 when u say we lost paf kicked iaf ass LEFT RIGHT n CENTER...........n if push comes to shove than ull know that the same will continue...........ie iaf will ave its ass kicked by paf.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Calm down oh patriot! I'm also a Pakistani and I know that, what PAF was till the early 90s is not the case anymore in terms of aircraft inventory. IAF is getting all the aircraft it wants and as many as it wants but PAF is lagging behind majorly due to Pakistan's political dillemmas day in and day out! The JF-17 and the hunt for a new front-line jet is PAF's answer to the people of Pakistan who are asking about what is being done to make the country's airspace protected qualitatively from potential enemies! IAF is also worried about its Mig-21s and other Migs and Jaguars and so they are hunting for second-line fighters. PAF has got to keep up or the edge that it has will soon dissappear if not taken care of. :cop

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

as soon as the jf-17 comes in with another frontliner, i think that paf will have the capability to kick iaf down for a joke. however at presant the iaf have definatly got an edge over pakistan.
however we have to keep in mind that we got by far one of the best pilot force on this planet. if you know urdu the word is JAZBAA! (BRAVE HEART)

 

[SABRE]

Read this guys. Its the History of PAF, the afghan war, PAF Mirrages & F-16. Most of u probably know all about this but it still is interesting.

1983 November 20 : An Afghan pilot defects and lands his Su7 at Dalbandin Airfield.

1984 September 22 : Defecting Afghan pilots land their An26s at Miranshah Airfield.

1985 July 13 : Two defecting Afghan Mi24 "Hind" gunship helicopters land at Miranshah Airfield.

1986 May 17 : PAF F16 shoots down an Su22 of the Afghan Air Force (AAF) and Pakistan becomes the second country after Israel to put F16s into military action.

1986 October 12` : A defecting Afghan pilot lands his Mig21 at Kohat airfield.

1987 March 30 : PAF F16 shoots down an intruding Afghan An26 near Miranshah area.

1987 April 16 : PAF F16 shoots down an intruding Afghan Su22 near Tull area.

1988 May 17 : PAF F16s shoot down two Russian Su22s over Parachinar area during Afghan war.

1988 August 4 : PAF F16 shoots down Russian Su25 in Miranshah area during Afghan war.

1988 September 12 : PAF F16s shoot down two intruder Russian Mig23s during Afghan war.

1988 November 1 : PAF F16 shoots down an intruder Russian Su22 over Tull area during Afghan war.

1989 : Pakistan signs contract with General Dynamics of USA for 71 F16s.

1996 : 40 reconditioned Mirage IIIEs purchased from Sagem of France at the rate of US $ 3 million each and inducted into the PAF.

1997 : 28 paidfor PAF F16s remain impounded by the US in a storage site in the Arizona desert due to the Pakistanspecific Pressler Amendment. Pakistan seeking to sell these aircraft to third country in order to recover its money. US charging Pakistan high storage costs for these aircraft. US Government blocks production of additional 32 F16s for PAF. Work under way for the joint production by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chinese Aeronautical Corporation (CATIC) of Super7 FC1 multirole airsuperiority fighter aircraft by China and Pakistan. Negotiations under way with Dassault Breguet of France for supply of 40 Mirage 20005 aircraft. Approval given by French Government for sale. (Note: PAF had selected the Mig29 and Su27 but sale could not go ahead after Russia refused to sell due to its close ties with India, a country which would be on the receiving end of these combat aircraft in case of war. PAF still considering possibility of purchasing these aircraft (Su27 and Mig29) through a third country like the Ukraine or China.

For more visit:
http://www32.brinkster.com/pakistanarmy/pafhistory.asp?id=1978

No wounder PAF is still after those F-16s. But they did go 4 those Mirage 2000-5 & the French govt give goahead than why did v back off? Any answers?