Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?


  • Total voters
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adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

joker said:
According to the ACM the PAF is pursuing a three prong strategy: 1) purchase JF 17; 2) purchase J10 and 3) purchase a high tech fighter. Out of the candidates the PAF is going for the Mirage 2000-9 (IAF operates the Mirage 2000H).

Inventory post 2012:

150-200 JF17
50 J10
50 Mirage 2000-9
50 F7MG
30+ F16s
is this confirmed by the PAF officials handleing the logistic for such a large mix of weapons would turn out to be nightmare for the PAF

i would say
150-200 Jf-17
50 Mirage 2000-5-2000-9/or JAS *********** high end
40-80 F-16s
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

joker said:
According to the ACM the PAF is pursuing a three prong strategy: 1) purchase JF 17; 2) purchase J10 and 3) purchase a high tech fighter. Out of the candidates the PAF is going for the Mirage 2000-9 (IAF operates the Mirage 2000H).

Inventory post 2012:

150-200 JF17
50 J10
50 Mirage 2000-9
50 F7MG
30+ F16s
Thats a logistical nightmare. The hi-lo mix is absolutely compromised and the support/baggage train is horrendous.

A fleet that is restricted to 3 platform types is easier and provides approp overlap.

The only thing that is common to all platforms is the type of fuel used. hardly a recipe for efficiency in a force that requires efficiency measures to maximise it's dilemna of being seen as a notionally smaller but more flexible force.
 

Oqaab

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

joker said:
According to the ACM the PAF is pursuing a three prong strategy: 1) purchase JF 17; 2) purchase J10 and 3) purchase a high tech fighter. Out of the candidates the PAF is going for the Mirage 2000-9 (IAF operates the Mirage 2000H).

Inventory post 2012:

150-200 JF17
50 J10
50 Mirage 2000-9
50 F7MG
30+ F16s
Hey joker,

ACM didnt said anything about the numbers of J-10 or Mirage 2000-9. He only said that PAF will be getting hi-tech fighters within three years and the options are, F-10, Mirage 2000-9 and JAS-39 Gripen.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Oqaab said:
joker said:
According to the ACM the PAF is pursuing a three prong strategy: 1) purchase JF 17; 2) purchase J10 and 3) purchase a high tech fighter. Out of the candidates the PAF is going for the Mirage 2000-9 (IAF operates the Mirage 2000H).

Inventory post 2012:

150-200 JF17
50 J10
50 Mirage 2000-9
50 F7MG
30+ F16s
Hey joker,

ACM didnt said anything about the numbers of J-10 or Mirage 2000-9. He only said that PAF will be getting hi-tech fighters within three years and the options are, F-10, Mirage 2000-9 and JAS-39 Gripen.
I bet it will be JAS-39
i have heard Pak is going to buy the Swedish AWACS so it would make more sense acquiring highly compatible tech i think PAK should also get more swedish Defense systems like the complete AIR SPAce defensive systems which i think is the C4i Battle feildAwareness sytem.

http://www.c4iasia.com/speakers.htm
this site is great its all about C4 network

http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/data_management/gallery.htmlThe

New US made radars should be easy to mount into the Swede C4 network systems.
 

joker

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

The full interview with ACM Saadat is below. I do agree that a force structure composing more than 3 fighters will be a logistical nightmare but we have to take this into context. The current fleet of F16 Block 15s and F7MGs still have a lot of life left in them and as the JF17 is to enter into serial prodn in 2006 at a rate of 20 units per year we could be looking at 7-10 yrs before the PAF inducts all 150-200 fighters hence the need to keep the F7s and F16s flying post 2012 as an interim solution of sorts. Furthermore, the initial inductions are most likely to be the A2A configuration with a A2G configuration added on later variants. Plus the US is NOT going to sell us any more F16s so that complicates the situation as well.

Also the PAF is looking at inducting upto 100 hi tech fighters. Financial constraints will not allow this and so we could be looking at a combo of M2K-9s and J10s. In the short to medium term the PAF will be operating 5 different aircrafts but in the long term the plan is for 3 different aircrafts i.e. JF17, M2K-9 and J10s.

The gripen has too many US components in it and the Swedes are notorious for applying sanctions at the worst possible time so that rules out the Gripen.

Frontline jets in three years: Air chief

Saadat says PAF promised largest chunk of defence budget;

Pakistan can’t keep waiting for F-16s

By Mayed Ali

LAHORE: Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Kaleem Saadat has said the PAF will be equipped with the frontline, state-of-the-art fighter aircraft within three years to address the regional imbalance in the skies.

In an exclusive panel interview to The News, the Air Chief Marshal hinted at equipping the PAF with, at least, 60 air-superiority aircraft in the near future for enabling the PAF to defend the country’s aerial frontiers. The PAF is expected to finalize one of the available options soon.

The interview panel comprised Salim Bokhari, and Mayed Ali. Discussing the multiple options which the PAF is weighing, the ACM said, the French Mirage 2000-9, Chinese J-10 (F-10), US F-16s and Swedish AJ-39 (Grippens) were the potential hi-tech aircraft to meet the air force ‘s immediate requirement.
Any of these sophisticated jetfighters could help address the balance of air power in the region. "It is imperative for the PAF to equip its existing fleet with hi-tech air-superiority aircraft to counter any aerial threat in future.

The ACM said the PAF had already presented the government with its future force goals for the next 10-15 years, and the government had not found anything wrong with that. He informed that the government had approved the plans submitted, and assured the PAF it would get the desired funds.

The ACM, however, maintained that the purchase of new aircraft was an exhaustive exercise. He believed it was quite a task to get the best value for the limited resources, as the prices varied with the technology. Quoting examples, he said any air force could purchase an aircraft between ranges of $5 million to $250 million (F-7 to F-22 Raptor). He said it depended on what gadget an air force wanted on board. More sophisticated the equipment one wanted on the aircraft higher would be the price-tag. Moreover, no deal could be ascertained as final till the agreement was signed for so many other factors played a vital role in the materialization of any deal. Ranging from technical reasons, financial constraints to diplomatic pressures, anything could leave an impact on the proposed plan.

During the interview the Air Chief discussed pros and cons of all the options and emphasized that best choice would be made to induct a suitable aircraft in the PAF’s inventory.

The Chief said the existing fleet - 30 plus F-16s and 50 F-7PGs - would go beyond 2012. In addition to this, he added, the PAF would acquire 150-200 JF-17 (Thunder) to meet the future demand. He said over and above this, the PAF would need 50-100 sophisticated western aircraft, which would be the leading edge of the air force.

The PAF would have to work on a three-pronged programme for creating a semblance of balance of air power in the region - upgrade the existing fleet and acquire the JF-17, go for advanced Chinese J-10s in the coming few years and acquire hi-tech western jetfighters as soon as possible. "The question is, will the PAF have the resources to fund all these programmes?"

When asked about the F-16s, Saadat said it was not an issue. "I tell the Americans that F-16 has become an emotional issue for both the parties."

In a lighter tone, the ACM laughed and said he suggested to his interlocutors, ``why don’t we change the request for F-16s to one F-18s, so we can close the F-16s chapter and start a new chapter of F-18s. You see why the PAF is stuck with the case of F-16s.’’

The Air Chief said 16-30 additional F-16s would enhance the PAF’s capability tremendously with very little cost because the logistics were in place, technical training was in place and pilot training was in place. When asked if Pakistan was getting the F-16s, he said he couldn’t say it for sure. Pakistan was not in a position to wait for F-16s for too long.

"If it comes, it comes as a bonus. I am not counting on F-16s." However, it remains a litmus test of relationship with the US. The clear-headed ACM believes Pakistan will have to acquire the latest technology because it is technology alone that provides you effective deterrence.

The ACM said there was a realization on the government’s part, regarding the urgency for equipping the PAF with new sophisticated planes. ``The air force has been promised with the largest chunk in the defence budget. This couldn’t have been possible without that realization.’’

Kaleem Saadat is of the strong view the war strategy has changed in the present times, and ultimately the air force will prove to be decisive contributor to success. He believed the land-occupation was no more a bargaining chip, rather hitting the economic targets and lending financial blow was the strategy in vogue. Instead of outside-in strategy, that is, cutting through the defence of the enemy and reaching the capital city, the modern-day warfare emphasizes on the inside-out strategy - hitting inside starting from command and control and moving outwards. He is of the view the territory is not important, the brains, know-how, research, effective system of governance, commitment and economy are important.

``Any country will like to destroy the industry, infrastructure, bridges and other economic strategic targets, leaving the economy of the enemy paralyzed. Achieving this, it would put you behind by, say, ten years; so why the territory be occupied. The armed forces are of no use if your economy is not strong enough to sustain them. To avoid the destruction to our infrastructure and economy, Pakistan will have to strengthen its air force.’’

In response to a query if the PAF had learnt any lesson from the USAF’s presence in Pakistan during the Operation Restore Hope, the Chief said, ``One learns from every experience. How same things can be done differently, and how can a system respond in a better way.’’ He said the USAF personnel used makeshift arrangements quite effectively, like portable lights for illuminating the runway or flying small UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) for force protection. The Chief clarified that during Operation Enduring Freedom armed US aircraft did not attack Afghanistan from Pakistani soil.

When asked about the focus on the acquisition of UAVs, keeping in view their role in modern warfare, the Air Chief informed that the PAF had established a squadron of UAVs. The crews were training with half and full scale birds.

Talking about the ground-controlled air-defence system, he said it had been upgraded indigenously. Moreover, new radars have been acquired, and fresh plans are in the pipeline.

The ACM is a strong advocate of improving the human-resource base of the PAF with an aim to improve the commitment and outlook of the arm. For this purpose, he said, the air force had published two books - The Doctrine of the Pakistan Air Force and Blue Book (True North).

The work on the Doctrine of the PAF project was initiated during former ACM Mushaf Ali Mir’s time. This book got into print after nine months ACM Kaleem Saadat assumed the slot. The ACM believes the book has been written to tell the people, other services and various institutions about the PAF’s objectives and principles; and the core competencies the PAF aspires to have if it is to defend the country effectively.

As for the Blue Book, it’s a code for making complete and successful professional air force personnel. ``Around 4000 officers and 33,000 to 34,000 technicians have the honour of wearing the blue uniform. So when one joins the air force, he should know what he should believe in and identify the objectives before him. So he could work towards the achievement of the same. We have been ritualistic in our approach so far for achieving the objectives. Reading a document does not mean you have acquired the knowledge, rather you need to evolve a way to measure the impact of the knowledge acquired by putting to test to find out whether or not the student has acquired the knowledge, skills and training’’.

The ‘True North’ tells the cadet what is the vision, mission and values of PAF." The Blue Book is handed over to the cadet when he arrives in the academy.

Apart from improving the hardware, projects like JF-17 (Thunder), the software in the shape of human resource should also be focused upon. ``The people are discouraged at times for not having the most modern aeroplanes, but we have given the vision to our manpower that we should be one of the respected air forces. Other air forces should come to you for consultation, help, assistance and ideas. You are respected if you do your job well.’’

He maintained the PAF was respected for exploiting the entire potential of the platform (aircraft). ``There could be guys, who could fly to a certain target and drop the bombs and come back. He has flown. But, there could be another guy, who could fly the plane to exploit its entire potential and performance envelope and could deliver the weapon from any position. He is a better professional, and will be respected. It doesn’t matter if you fly Mirages, F-7s or F-16s, it matters how you fly them.’’

Emphasizing the need for overall improvement, the PAF Chief said the advanced air forces had brought the pilot-rejection ratio to zero, while the PAF had that of around 40-50 percent from the time of recruitment. By improving the overall screening process, he added, the PAF could bring this dropout rate down thus saving vital resources. He went on to say the PAF endeavoured, making best of the soft and hardware. For instance, he said, the PAF was making efforts to utilize its fleet to the maximum. ``If we can operate effectively our existing fleet, that is, we can fly these aircraft the way we want to fly them and when we want to fly them. It contributes to efficiency.’’ By making a very small investment into the support-equipment, the performance of the air force could be enhanced many folds.

ACM Kaleem Saadat said there was a whole revamping of the air force going on, and the bottomline of the Blue Book is ‘rather than blind obedience, the air force will insist on informed obedience’. ``The pilots and ground-staff should know that they are the stakeholders, it’s one team and everybody has a role to play. The values we have set for ourselves are integrity, duty and excellence.’’

On the same front, Saadat said, the PAF had also revised the rules and regulations to meet the modern-day challenges. ``Organizations are run better through the implementation of standardized and up-to-date rules and regulations and not through direct commands of members of the Air Staff.

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/m.../main/main6.htm
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

hey that was a good Interview !! thanx alot Joker, for that i only had read the condensed version of the interview before this!! so now we know what they are looking for i still stand by the JAS-39 this will be the choice becasue its High end works with what PAF was planning to Buy, the Swede AWAC and its has a powerplant that would be similar to the One on most US based AC like the F-16s.
i know the JAS-39 has Some US components but the only thing that is American is the Powerplant its self. the rest is swede!! the JAs is perfect Indians don't have access to its designs or its Performance Attributes. the Perfect Silver bullet!!
 

mysterious

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Like I said before, current situation says, Gripen rulz!! The interview was great I must say. At least it made me feel that 'OK, the PAF is as worried about its inventory as some of us over here are; and that they're planning on doing somethin about it bigtime'!! :smokingc:
 

joker

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Actually the powerplant is not the only US component ... I'd say about 35% of the Gripen is of US origin. Even if the Gripen's sole foreign component was a US built powerplant what makes you think the Indian caucus wont lobby congress to block the sale of spare parts for the powerplant? What we have then is a 4th gen paper weight!!! Trust me ACM Saadat only put in the Gripen to add to the speculation because a M2K-9 deal is still 6-12 months from finalisation i.e. signing on the dotted line.

A M2K-9 deal would also block IAF ambitions for a fleet of 126 M2K-5s. I suspect this is one of the preconditions Pakistan will set down.

As for the AEW&Cs Greece has placed an order for the system yet they dont operate any Gripens. Brazil has them in service yet they dont operate any Gripens. Malaysia is due to place an order but they havent signed for any Gripens! You dont need the Gripens just to optimalise the use of the AEW&C!
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

joker said:
Actually the powerplant is not the only US component ... I'd say about 35% of the Gripen is of US origin. Even if the Gripen's sole foreign component was a US built powerplant what makes you think the Indian caucus wont lobby congress to block the sale of spare parts for the powerplant? What we have then is a 4th gen paper weight!!! Trust me ACM Saadat only put in the Gripen to add to the speculation because a M2K-9 deal is still 6-12 months from finalisation i.e. signing on the dotted line.

A M2K-9 deal would also block IAF ambitions for a fleet of 126 M2K-5s. I suspect this is one of the preconditions Pakistan will set down.

As for the AEW&Cs Greece has placed an order for the system yet they dont operate any Gripens. Brazil has them in service yet they dont operate any Gripens. Malaysia is due to place an order but they havent signed for any Gripens! You dont need the Gripens just to optimalise the use of the AEW&C!
Joker are you serious the French would value PAF Over IAF(which has a larger requirement and Fund) i would doubt the French would oppose or would halt any sale to IAF regardless Pak Buys Those Mirages, oh rite Pak will not buy Mirage 2009 thats a designation for the UAE customization they would certainly go for the SAme thing what iNdia would buy the Mk2 variant of the 2000-5. I doubt PAF is keen on those Jets any more the only other option is either wait till november for F-16 or Go for Gripen JAS-39 they will get the Approval to buy them and set up logistical support i doubt the Swedes would just sell the AC and leave its current / future client Run Dry !! the Gripens Power plant has two Sub contracters that are not Swedish and those are the Lockheed martin and the GE the other Firm produceing these engines is Volvo. and i checked as much as i could the only thing American in this Jet is some of its powerplant componets are from the US. All other Avionics and the Radars are from Sweden the Radar is From Erricson the Data links from them too and the Avinoics came from a swede company too. your Under estimateing the Swedes alot !!!

The Best option to maximize an AN AWAC ability would be to use the AC with it that were desinged for it!!! i am not saying you can't use any other AC but it would be great to see these birds fly with its Orignal intended Command AC
If Pak USes French and or JF-17 with these AWACS they would have a hell of a time Bridging the Gaps and Writing new interface Bridge SOftware. these AC are not built on Windows Compatible PLatforms. ;) but its something they will have to do if they get Gripens they would have one less problem to think off.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Ok! Took time before replying to this one as was digging at my sources again.The reason why we don't see the Typhoon and Rafale in the list are because, the versions we want won't become available before 2008.The JAS-39s or M2K9, whichever is acquired will augment our present F-16s for now and will after the eventual purchase of either Typhoon or Rafale( even if we order these in 2008 delivery won't begin untill 2014) and retirement of the Falcons augment that type.I have also come to know that we have completed our initial evaluation of the J-10 and are examining it more rigorously to see if any changes are needed ala A-5C and JF-17.A team is in China and will finish it's work either early or mid next year and we can expect it to be inducted in PAF around 2007-08.
P.S just a gloat but see guys I told u what the PAF was upto :smokingc:
 

corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
The ACM said something abt a three pronged program:

Upgrade existing fleet and induct JF-17.

Wait on J-10

Get a good western fighter as our leading edge.

U know wat this means? were gonna get both the J-10 and perhaps the Gripen. I wouldnt rule out the M-2000 cuz the french go more 4 money n less 4 politics unless the Indians bribe them in2 dumpin us cuz the idea of selling another 55 M-2000s is kinda appealing 2 em. But in doing so theyd be putting their Scorpene and Aircraft deal at stake.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

i really would like the PAF to have the Gripen. who cares if they have US technology in them. we haven't been made NON-NATO ally's for nothing you know.
i have a feeling that something is gonna happen mid year 2004 because there was a post earlier saying that the PAF will surprise everyone mid year
 

joker

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

AdSh no offence mate but what part of the US will NOT authroise the sale of F16s dont you understand??

If they're not selling us obsolete F16 Block 15s then what makes you think we're going to get Gripens with 35% composition of US components??

Do you know what the average length of time it takes for the Indian MoD to finalise a sale? 15 yrs... just look at the Hawk, Gorshkov and Bofors deals! If Dassault is going to get an offer for X amount of M2K-9s in the next two yrs then they're not going to say NO hoping to secure a deal with the IAF that has yet to sign an MOU!

Also what you guys have to understand is that when purchasing a weapon system the initial procurement cost is just the tip of the iceberg. You pay for the weapon system through out its entire lifetime i.e. 30 years. That includes maintaining the fleet, paying for upgrades, weapons etc in addition to establishing training regimes for pilots & technicians, setting up the infrastructure etc. We're talking about billions of $ here that Dassault is going to make for the next 30 yrs in addition to the procurement costs. Now either they take near confirmed PAF order including whatever preconditions they may push for and make billions or they can wait around for the IAF to place an order which to date only exists as a rumour in the Hindustan Times!!! So yes we do have enough leverage.
 

joker

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

The PAF is not going for the Rafale or the Typhoon. Theyre committed to the M2K-9s which are going to serve as frontline fighters for the next 30 yrs.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

joker said:
The PAF is not going for the Rafale or the Typhoon. Theyre committed to the M2K-9s which are going to serve as frontline fighters for the next 30 yrs.
Its mirage 2000-5 not 2000-9

The amount of US componet you state is about 35% but if you check the Suppliers American components are only a fraction of the total Jet, i doubt GE and the US government would have a problem selling a Diamond tipped part and would risk a possible loss well worth over Muliti million or even billion dollar for the Swedes. the Swedes only use very few american components in there jet because they are cheap (they are not a freaken third world Country they Have been building Jets well over two decades, they are one of the MOst developed nations on earth more developed than the US and UK put together. they are alot more high tech in there research than most europeans) the Americans don't dictate the Terms here!!! Wake UP Joker !!! your telling me The US sells some Components of for gripens vovo power plant Aseembly Ie the The Few Precision components for the Vovo engine and they would be able to dictate who they(Swedes would sell to or not. then why the hell would sweden use those components if they loose the freedome to sell there Jets. Buying American made Jet and Buying a JEt which uses Screws of American Origin is two totally different thing. Sweden Saab Badly needs Contracts and Partners In the world to Jointly Develop and Make these Jets. the french Mk2 2005 are not that simple they Demand full cash or they issue expensive Loan they, INdia will never be able to Block those jets but if the India Buys these 2000 -5 and keep an inventory of 120 pluss of these jets then it won't make any sense buying the same jet (in 50 pluss) with a similar Weapon suite PLease think Before you make assertions like these.

At the end of this discussion we need to sit back and think over what we have just discussed and wait for the Announcement by PAF.
 

Oqaab

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

adsH said:
joker said:
The PAF is not going for the Rafale or the Typhoon. Theyre committed to the M2K-9s which are going to serve as frontline fighters for the next 30 yrs.
Its mirage 2000-5 not 2000-9
It could be Mirage 2000-9. Coz Mirage 2000-5 costs 45 million a piece and PAF will be paying 50 million for each Mirage.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Oqaab said:
adsH said:
joker said:
The PAF is not going for the Rafale or the Typhoon. Theyre committed to the M2K-9s which are going to serve as frontline fighters for the next 30 yrs.
Its mirage 2000-5 not 2000-9
It could be Mirage 2000-9. Coz Mirage 2000-5 costs 45 million a piece and PAF will be paying 50 million for each Mirage.
For the Last time !!

Mirage 2000-9 are the Same AC as teh 2000-5 they are named Differntly becasue they were customized for UAE to carry there MIssiles that the UAE devloped.
 

Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
Buying the Mirage for the PAF would be stupidity since India already operates the plane.
And for god's sake forget about the F-16s already. :nonsense
 

joker

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

ADsh just a few of the hundreds sub systems of the Gripen that are produced in the US its APU system is made by Lucas Aerospace, its AEW antennas, fore and aft are made by E-Systems, major software R&D along with corrections were undertaken in the US by Calspan, the rail lunchers for missiles and extertnal fuel tanks are made by BAe-Thales, Alenia, and Raytheon.

The Mirage 2000-9 is NOT the same as the Mirage 2000-5. the M2K-9 is the latest evolution of the Mirage family and has been clearly indicated by ACM Saadat as an option for the PAF. He never even brought up the -5!!!

For fuck sake Adsh get your act together man!!!

Onto the issue of the IAF pray ADSH pls point out concrete proof that the IAF has signed on the dotted line for the Mirage 2000??? What makes you think that if the PAF goes for the M2K-9s than Indian will continue its bid for the M2K-5s?????????


Thank God your not the ACM otherwise the PAF would really be up shit's creek!!!

Now Im done trying to yank you out of the delusional world you live in seeing as how your not even willing to take the ACM word (Mirage 2000-5 my arse :roll ).

Admin Edit: Text Edited. This kind of language is unnecessary. we can have decent conversations in here without resorting to personal abuse
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

joker said:
ADsh just a few of the hundreds sub systems of the Gripen that are produced in the US its APU system is made by Lucas Aerospace, its AEW antennas, fore and aft are made by E-Systems, major software R&D along with corrections were undertaken in the US by Calspan, the rail lunchers for missiles and extertnal fuel tanks are made by BAe-Thales, Alenia, and Raytheon.

The Mirage 2000-9 is NOT the same as the Mirage 2000-5. the M2K-9 is the latest evolution of the Mirage family and has been clearly indicated by ACM Saadat as an option for the PAF. He never even brought up the -5!!!

For *duck* sake Adsh get your act together man!!!

Onto the issue of the IAF pray ADSH pls point out concrete proof that the IAF has signed on the dotted line for the Mirage 2000??? What makes you think that if the PAF goes for the M2K-9s than Indian will continue its bid for the M2K-5s?????????


Thank God your not the ACM otherwise the PAF would really be up *shuck*'s creek!!!

Now Im done trying to yank you out of the delusional world you live in seeing as how your not even willing to take the ACM word (Mirage 2000-5 my arse :roll ).

Fucking wanker
Joker i am not throwing stones at you or Calling you Names am i, we were having a civil discussion just before you had the Primatial urge to revert back to your primitive nature caling me Names!! Thnx for the remark i will take that comment as a Remark comming from an idiot(ofcource not you )!! how ever i respect all your Comments!! and "Yank"ing as you would put it seams to be the word of choice for you!!! but you don't seam to yank me at all and no i am not delusional in a short space of your those Irrelevant Lines that you WRote To "YANK" me!! the only usefull part (how ever without any proof BAE system is not American prove other wise!! ) was the FIrst section where you had your Brain's grey matter inteact! PLease Joker don't shower around your Idiocy here by calling and "trying" to yank or INsult me By caliing me Names. MOD you should note that i was very restrained in my reply could you check Joker here. PLease thanks.
and my dear friend Joker

here is an extract which clearly states that the MK2 of the 2000-5 has the RDY2 capability and the improvements that were augmented onto the Mirage 2000-9
in essence the Mirage 2000-9 is the same as the Mk2 of the 2000-5 and i see very litle use of these as the main Ice breaker fleet for Pak as India will procure a similar weapon in a much larger quanitiy in addition to that India has the Logistical support and trainng regime sorted out for these Crafts. i know its a world appart concept for you to adopt r atleast accept but the Platform for these mirage variants is the orignal Mirage 2000 and india as we speak is training on it!!!!!!

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmir2k.html#m5

[5] THE NEXT GENERATION: MIRAGE 2000-5 / MIRAGE 2000-9


* By the late 1980s, the Mirage 2000 was beginning to age relative to the competition, and export sales slumped. Dassault began work on an update featuring Thomson-CSF multimode "Radar Doppler Multitarget" ("RDY" in its French acronym); a more powerful processor; improved defensive avionics; compatibility with the new Matra "Mica" AAM, which is available in both heat-seeking and active radar homing versions; and a new five-display "glass cockpit" layout borrowed from the Rafale program. The RDY radar provides true multitarget tracking and can guide four Micas to different targets simultaneously.

The old prototype Mirage 2000B was extensively modified to fly as the first next-generation "Mirage 2000-5", in October 1990. The first single-seat Mirage 2000-5 flew in April 1991. Mirage 2000-5 variants are externally difficult to distinguish from first-generation Mirage 2000 variants, and possess the same SNECMA M53-P2 engine.

Dassault needed an order from the ADA to help promote foreign sales, and after some lobbying, in 1993 the ADA decided to upgrade 37 of their existing Mirage 2000s to 2000-5 specification as a stopgap before the arrival of the Rafale in ADA service. The upgraded aircraft were redesignated "Mirage 2000-5F", and became operational in 2000.

In 1992, the Taiwanese Air Force ordered 48 single-seat "Mirage 2000-5EIs" and 12 "Mirage 2000-5DI" trainers, with introduction of the first squadron in 1997 and the last fighters delivered in 1999. In 1994, Qatar ordered nine single-seat "Mirage 2000-5EDAs" and three "Mirage 2000-5DDA" trainers, with initial deliveries in late 1997.

* Dassault then extended the improvements a bit further with the "Mirage 2000-9", which features an "RDY-2" radar, the high-power "Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU)" designed for the Rafale, and an improved countermeasures suite with a new lowband jammer. The RDY-2 is similar to the original RDY, but features two new air-to-ground modes, including a high-resolution "synthetic aperture radar (SAR)" imaging mode.

The United Arab Emirates (UAE, with the machines specifically ordered by Abu Dhabi) was the launch customer, ordering 30 new-build aircraft and 33 upgrades, with initial deliveries in late 2002. The UAE Mirage 2000-9s are well-equipped for the strike mission, as they are being provided with the "Shehab" laser targeting pod, a variant of the Thales Damocles pod, and the Nahar navigation pod, complementing the air-to-ground modes of the RDY-2 radar. The UAE is also obtaining the "Black Shahine" cruise missile, which is basically a variant of the APACHE.

In 2000, Greece ordered a batch of 25 "Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2" fighters, which are essentially Mirage 2000-9s, including 15 new-build aircraft and 10 upgrades from their existing Mirage 2000EGs. Dassault is also competing for a Brazilian deal with the Mirage 2000-9. Ironically, Dassault so far has had absolutely no luck promoting the Rafale on the export market, while the less-expensive new Mirage 2000s with Rafale technology are selling well.

Another piece of Rafale technology being ported to the Mirage 2000 is the Thales AIDA visual identification pod, which includes infrared and optical sensors for IFF and targeting. It will be used by ADA Mirage 2000-5Fs.

Further development of the second-generation type is expected to include a Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver; a Joint Tactical Information Datalink System (JTIDS); compatibility with helmet-mounted sights for off-boresight heat-seeking missiles; and unspecified long-range sensors.




Now that, thats over!!! and i would of "Yanked" YOu as you would say on that issue.

Lets turn our selves to the remark "Thank god... YOur Not ..... ACM.... Blah blah
lets not hope any AF of the World has me as an ACM i doubt i could ever be that professional!! those Jobs are for the best Not loosers like US and Rember that YOu and I are the the Members of teh "Shuck' Creeks" thats why those Pros of the PAF are given the Duty to Defnd a nation and not Us@@!!!!

Provide me a source for your Dillusions Blind hate for the US asssertion that the Gripen uses Atleast hundered Sub system built in America, and how would you know that the Majour Software R&D occured in teh US PLease i would love to Inlighten my self!!! (being serious here).

and just to make it clear once again the Mirage 2000-9 is a designation for UAE customised Mirages with Black Shaheen missile Improvements very Customized for the UAE teh MK@ of teh 20005 is the Same thing !!!!!

and to close my Pointless Discussion Your attitude tells me that you have had a very troubled Childhood or are haveing one right now!!!!



:)
 
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