Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?


  • Total voters
    95

umair

Peace Enforcer
Plus for info PAF can fork over $2.8 billion immediately for new fighters.My sources say given short term credit(less than 1 year time) it can raise the ante to 4 billion.
The Typhoon is a better choice overall than the Rafale.
Few reasons:
1) Fuel efficient and faster response time(super cruise baby!)
2)Typhoon consortium on bulk orders reduces unit price.
3) EW suite of both it and the Rafale make them "Klingon Starships"
4)No political blocking.(both cases)
5)Five sources for spares.

As I've already mentioned we can expect a decision between these two sometime in late 2004 early-mid 2005.
The Typhoon will be choosen in my opinion cause the reduction in the unit price will allow PAF to form an additional squadron.(req is for upto 64 planes for 4 squads)eg Saudis have been offered Typhoons for $2.5 billion for requirement for 50 new fighters(do the math).Greece's 60 fighter order has also brought their unit price to the same level as the Saudis.
 

corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
I have a question abt the EF 2000. If it was a jointly developed fighter then whose gonna sell it to us? How many partners will agree to it? And if they put an embargoe on us then which partner will supply us with spares?
 

Roger Smith

New Member
Oqaab said:
Roger Smith said:
Thanks for your response.

BTW, I am a Canadian.

In accordance to you, if PAF inducts Mirage 2000-5 at least a minimum of 2 squadrons (40 aircrafts) that will cost Pakistan $2 billion. Do you know USA has forgiven over $2 billion loans to Pakistan and I am sure the American will block the Mirage deal and substitute it with reconditioned F-16.

Economic factor, that is a different story all together. You can not compare India and Pakistan economics, it is like day and night difference in every sector.

Thanks.
Dont U know Mirage 2000-5 is a french aircraft ???? How can the americans block the Mirages for Pakistan ? If this is the case then why didnt they blocked Chinese A-5Cs for Pakistan which can drop nuclear weapons ...... Atleast say something sencible.

Another thing, I m not comparing Pakistan's economy with India's economy. Ive said that Pakistan's economy is better then before and now we can buy expensive aircrafts.
Oqaab

No disrespect to you or any other member on this forum.

Just give a thought for a second!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1) Look at the past 10 years PAF has been inducting second hand French Mirage aircrafts, American helicopters and C-130 aircrafts and new Chinese J-7 (Russian copy of Mig-21) due to restrain on funds factor.
2) Pakistan total annual budget is $12 billion and 75% is consumed in debt servicing and defence expenditure, remaining $3 billion is for the infrastructure of the country and Pakistan is heavily dependent on IMF, World Bank, ADB, European Union and other International Financial Institutions for financial loans for its economic survival.
3) India will not allow Franch to supply Mirage-2000-5 to Pakistan.
4) Pakistan is too much dependent on the American for free hand out. In a way if America catches cold Pakistan will get its flu.
5) The American allow Pakistan to buy Chinese A-5 & J-7 as it is second hand and old Russian technology.
6) There is peace process going on between Pakistan and India, Pakistan is not in position to risk the peace process by buying arms.
7) Pakistan is heavily dependent of International Financial Institutions like World Bank, IMF and others., they will object and may refrain from further loans.
8) Currently, Pakistan's forex reserves are $12 billion, should there be power switch on top like the President, the entire reserves will simply vanish in thin air as it happened during Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif duration.

I look forward hearing from you. Take care.
 

Panzer

New Member
corsair7772 said:
r u sayin were putting our country at political risk by making major arms deals?
No, I think what he is saying that Pakistan is putting itself at economic risk by making major arms deals which may lead to political risk in form of pressure from various agencies and countries.
 

The Watcher

New Member
1) Look at the past 10 years PAF has been inducting second hand French Mirage aircrafts, American helicopters and C-130 aircrafts and new Chinese J-7 (Russian copy of Mig-21) due to restrain on funds factor.
2) Pakistan total annual budget is $12 billion and 75% is consumed in debt servicing and defence expenditure, remaining $3 billion is for the infrastructure of the country and Pakistan is heavily dependent on IMF, World Bank, ADB, European Union and other International Financial Institutions for financial loans for its economic survival.
3) India will not allow Franch to supply Mirage-2000-5 to Pakistan.
4) Pakistan is too much dependent on the American for free hand out. In a way if America catches cold Pakistan will get its flu.
5) The American allow Pakistan to buy Chinese A-5 & J-7 as it is second hand and old Russian technology.
6) There is peace process going on between Pakistan and India, Pakistan is not in position to risk the peace process by buying arms.
7) Pakistan is heavily dependent of International Financial Institutions like World Bank, IMF and others., they will object and may refrain from further loans.
8) Currently, Pakistan's forex reserves are $12 billion, should there be power switch on top like the President, the entire reserves will simply vanish in thin air as it happened during Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif duration.
1. That Chinese F-7PG not J7s. :roll

2. I don't know whats pakistan total budget but I do know that pakistan spends $3 billion on defence. How is that 75% of total budge?

3. French will sell Pakistan whatever they wish to. India does not make calls for France. France will sell anyone with money. Besides Pakistan has better relations with France than India-considering the Agosta project and TOT that French allowed Pakistan. India cries on every arms acquisition that pakistan makes. Even acquiring transport plans is a major concern for india that it can shift balance of power in Pakistans favor. Country three times the size of Pakistan is so paranoid is unbelievable.

4. Pakistan isn't dependant on anybody. Pakistan uses its contacts and oppurtunity to get whatever it needs from the Americans just like India uses Israel and Russia and war on terror to acquire whatever it wishes from US/Israel/Russia. India in a way is also dependant on Russia for 80% of its military needs. It had to cry to Israel when it needed artillery shells during kargil... sadly for you Pakistan makes major immunition in pakistan and even sells them to other countries.

5. Again, pakistan isn't buying A-5s of J-7s. Those planes are ready to be retired not acquired. pakistan has been buyin chineses F-7PG - that with good AAM's can cause problems for Indian jets.

6. Pakistan isn't the only one involved in this peace process, india is too. So if India can acquire major arms during the peace process, test missiles and other military related stuff, why not pakistan. :roll It is india which started the arms race in South Asia by testing its first nuclear device in 74. Pakistan had to follow to protect its self from Indian aggression.

7. Thats bull and would have been turee 4 years ago. But that isn't the case. IMF loans and other loans have been reshedualed, from $36 billion to 32 billion. Our two traitor leaders that India loves so much borrowed so much money from IMF and world bank that it rendered pakistans economy to point of failure. Karachi stock exchange has been the fastest growing Stock exchange in the world since 911, all because of new economic policies and foriegn and domestic investment. You are misinformed, I suggest you go and search on these economic developments in Pakistan.

8. During benazir and Nawaz Sharif, the reservers were half a billion. So, things weren't so great back then for Pakistan and thats why those two leaders are loved by Indians. Its been four years since they were kicked out and things are much better and improving, sadly you may not like that news since you are so hard on pressing misinformation and old information against Pakistan.

On the economic front, Gwadar post seems to be the major piece of pie for Pakistan's economy in the future. Its going to be the hub for trade. Central Asia nations are going to use that port to get access to warm waters which are not available to them otherwise. Russia, will also use it for its export and import needs through vast network of road ways and railways links from Pakistan, afghanistan into the CAR Region. Two projects on gas and oil pipelines were signed few years ago and they are underway. Pakistan's economy expects to digest close to $12 billion each year through these projects and that is good news. As words attention shifts to Oil reserves of CAR nations, pakistan is poised to become the business hub for many companies and countries since so many will depend on its port(gwadar) for exports and import of oil, gas and any other product that CAR nations need to export, etc.
http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=347&highlight=gwadar
 

Panzer

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

2. I don't know whats pakistan total budget but I do know that pakistan spends $3 billion on defence. How is that 75% of total budge?
75% is consumed in debt servicing and defence expenditure.

6. Pakistan isn't the only one involved in this peace process, india is too. So if India can acquire major arms during the peace process, test missiles and other military related stuff, why not pakistan.
Its all about perception.

India is percieved to be acquiring arms to match against China

whereas Pakistan acquiring arms is percieved to be for use against India only.
 

Panzer

New Member
The Watcher said:
whereas Pakistan acquiring arms is percieved to be for use against India only.
So? Is it a crime for Pakistan to acquire arms against india to protect its self?
No it is not.
But it is percieved by western countries as destablizing the peace process by purchasing arms for use against the country you are having peace talks with.

Although India's arms can also be used against Pakistan but are believed to be an effort to match China as i mentioned earlier.

So, as i said Its all about perception
 

mysterious

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

way'da go Watcher...Lets open up some eyes to REALITY and drag these people outta their stereo-typed hype about Pakistan! Continue your good, evidence based stuff ..meanwhile I'm looking around for more info and articles n proofs. Take care man!
 

Roger Smith

New Member
The Watcher said:
1) Look at the past 10 years PAF has been inducting second hand French Mirage aircrafts, American helicopters and C-130 aircrafts and new Chinese J-7 (Russian copy of Mig-21) due to restrain on funds factor.
2) Pakistan total annual budget is $12 billion and 75% is consumed in debt servicing and defence expenditure, remaining $3 billion is for the infrastructure of the country and Pakistan is heavily dependent on IMF, World Bank, ADB, European Union and other International Financial Institutions for financial loans for its economic survival.
3) India will not allow Franch to supply Mirage-2000-5 to Pakistan.
4) Pakistan is too much dependent on the American for free hand out. In a way if America catches cold Pakistan will get its flu.
5) The American allow Pakistan to buy Chinese A-5 & J-7 as it is second hand and old Russian technology.
6) There is peace process going on between Pakistan and India, Pakistan is not in position to risk the peace process by buying arms.
7) Pakistan is heavily dependent of International Financial Institutions like World Bank, IMF and others., they will object and may refrain from further loans.
8) Currently, Pakistan's forex reserves are $12 billion, should there be power switch on top like the President, the entire reserves will simply vanish in thin air as it happened during Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif duration.
1. That Chinese F-7PG not J7s. :roll

2. I don't know whats pakistan total budget but I do know that pakistan spends $3 billion on defence. How is that 75% of total budge?

3. French will sell Pakistan whatever they wish to. India does not make calls for France. France will sell anyone with money. Besides Pakistan has better relations with France than India-considering the Agosta project and TOT that French allowed Pakistan. India cries on every arms acquisition that pakistan makes. Even acquiring transport plans is a major concern for india that it can shift balance of power in Pakistans favor. Country three times the size of Pakistan is so paranoid is unbelievable.

4. Pakistan isn't dependant on anybody. Pakistan uses its contacts and oppurtunity to get whatever it needs from the Americans just like India uses Israel and Russia and war on terror to acquire whatever it wishes from US/Israel/Russia. India in a way is also dependant on Russia for 80% of its military needs. It had to cry to Israel when it needed artillery shells during kargil... sadly for you Pakistan makes major immunition in pakistan and even sells them to other countries.

5. Again, pakistan isn't buying A-5s of J-7s. Those planes are ready to be retired not acquired. pakistan has been buyin chineses F-7PG - that with good AAM's can cause problems for Indian jets.

6. Pakistan isn't the only one involved in this peace process, india is too. So if India can acquire major arms during the peace process, test missiles and other military related stuff, why not pakistan. :roll It is india which started the arms race in South Asia by testing its first nuclear device in 74. Pakistan had to follow to protect its self from Indian aggression.

7. Thats bull and would have been turee 4 years ago. But that isn't the case. IMF loans and other loans have been reshedualed, from $36 billion to 32 billion. Our two traitor leaders that India loves so much borrowed so much money from IMF and world bank that it rendered pakistans economy to point of failure. Karachi stock exchange has been the fastest growing Stock exchange in the world since 911, all because of new economic policies and foriegn and domestic investment. You are misinformed, I suggest you go and search on these economic developments in Pakistan.

8. During benazir and Nawaz Sharif, the reservers were half a billion. So, things weren't so great back then for Pakistan and thats why those two leaders are loved by Indians. Its been four years since they were kicked out and things are much better and improving, sadly you may not like that news since you are so hard on pressing misinformation and old information against Pakistan.

On the economic front, Gwadar post seems to be the major piece of pie for Pakistan's economy in the future. Its going to be the hub for trade. Central Asia nations are going to use that port to get access to warm waters which are not available to them otherwise. Russia, will also use it for its export and import needs through vast network of road ways and railways links from Pakistan, afghanistan into the CAR Region. Two projects on gas and oil pipelines were signed few years ago and they are underway. Pakistan's economy expects to digest close to $12 billion each year through these projects and that is good news. As words attention shifts to Oil reserves of CAR nations, pakistan is poised to become the business hub for many companies and countries since so many will depend on its port(gwadar) for exports and import of oil, gas and any other product that CAR nations need to export, etc.
http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=347&highlight=gwadar
I appreciate your views point. If you think Pakistan can buy arms from the country you prescribed, I wish you and Pakistan good luck and happy shopping.
 

Oqaab

New Member
Roger Smith said:
No disrespect to you or any other member on this forum.

Just give a thought for a second!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1) Look at the past 10 years PAF has been inducting second hand French Mirage aircrafts, American helicopters and C-130 aircrafts and new Chinese J-7 (Russian copy of Mig-21) due to restrain on funds factor.
My dear, PAF was trying to save money for a new generation aircraft. If u remember, PAF ordered 71 F-16s in the past which we didnt get. Then we ordered another 28 F-16 and USA returned the money and didnt send F-16s. Does that mean we dont have money ??? In the past we had enough money to induct more then 100 F-16, then I think now we can buy Rafales or Eurofighter. Atleast 50+ of these aircrafts.

2) Pakistan total annual budget is $12 billion and 75% is consumed in debt servicing and defence expenditure, remaining $3 billion is for the infrastructure of the country and Pakistan is heavily dependent on IMF, World Bank, ADB, European Union and other International Financial Institutions for financial loans for its economic survival.
Pakistan's forex reserves are 12.5 billion. 32 billion debt. More then One billion will be returned this year. Atleast we arent taking any more money from Paris Club or IMF. But India is taking 2 billion per year and it isnt paying anything. I think India is more dependent over these institutions. As Ive said before, the debt over India is 109.6 billion and increasing 2 billion per year. And BTW, I have a link which says that Pakistan has 12 billion USD to be spent over its airforce. Do U want that link ?

Another thing, Many of the Indians use to say that Pakistan is spending more then 5 billion over its defence. The 3 billion figure is the official one. 60 attack choppers, 6 C-130s, 150 Jf-17s, 4 Jaingwei II warships, P-3 orion, Al-Khalids, more then 1000 APCs, 3 C-235 tansport aircrafts are on order. Do U think these will cost 3 billion ?

3) India will not allow Franch to supply Mirage-2000-5 to Pakistan.
Roger,

It seems like U r an Indian whose pretending to be a canadian.

Just tell me one thing. If India has the remote control to stop any Franco-Pak deal, then why didnt India stopped Agosta 90B with ToT and Mirage aircrafts. Ur next reply should be sencible then this one. I'll appritiate that.

4) Pakistan is too much dependent on the American for free hand out. In a way if America catches cold Pakistan will get its flu.
The 1.5 bn aid from US isnt for the Afghanistan broder, but it is for Indian border. American cannot stop us from doing anything. What about 1998 nuclear explosions ???

5) The American allow Pakistan to buy Chinese A-5 & J-7 as it is second hand and old Russian technology.
And what about the JF-17 ? Why is the US crying over it ? Coz they can drop n-bombs and these aircrafts are going to Pakistan. Our JF-17 is more capable then the F-16 block 15 which US blocked.

6) There is peace process going on between Pakistan and India, Pakistan is not in position to risk the peace process by buying arms.
I m sorry but U have given another stupid reason. Ur comment is laughable.

U know, the nuke capable Ghaznavi missiles are handed over to army today. Dont U think its a risk. And all the arms which I mentioned above. What do u think of that. Now stop giving stupid reasons regarding PAF will not buy a 4/5th gen aircraft.

7) Pakistan is heavily dependent of International Financial Institutions like World Bank, IMF and others., they will object and may refrain from further loans.
How do U know that ? Have U read any report from IMF or World Bank ? When IMF and World Band cant stop India, how can they stop Pakistan ?

Secondly, If we are returning all the money, that means we dont need money from these banks now (Alhumdolillah). So stop dreaming, nobody will try to stop Pakistan from making conventional or nuclear weapons.

8) Currently, Pakistan's forex reserves are $12 billion, should there be power switch on top like the President, the entire reserves will simply vanish in thin air as it happened during Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif duration.
Webby please note his comments.

Roger,

Thats Ur negitive thinking against Pakistan. Our economy is better then before. And If a war breaks now, I m sure History will repeat itself (1965).
 

darklegent

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

Two questions Oqaab (Answer them logically).

1) If you were to be the President, presently with 12 billion in ur coffers( plus 6 billion that in the next 5 years u are expected to increase in the forex reserves @ a growth rate of around 5 - 6 %) would you spend all of the money in arms and warfare equipment?
Plz bare in mind there is also development expenditure if not the cost of running the government(salaries & capital expenditures) to be considered when you answer.

2) As with usual practice world-wide, when a war break out between 2 countries. The war arms & ammunation purchased (not the ones produced in the ordiance factory), supplies, fuel etc. from the world usually becomes expensive and hard cash oriented. How long in terms of ( Days ) will 12 billion in ur coffers run out.

Plz think logically and answer the two questions as I have nothing personal against you but feel that it makes a lil sence to think of a war senario with the facts completely discussed with refernce to purchase of arms and ammuntions.
 

Oqaab

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

darklegent said:
Two questions Oqaab (Answer them logically).

1) If you were to be the President, presently with 12 billion in ur coffers( plus 6 billion that in the next 5 years u are expected to increase in the forex reserves @ a growth rate of around 5 - 6 %) would you spend all of the money in arms and warfare equipment?
Plz bare in mind there is also development expenditure if not the cost of running the government(salaries & capital expenditures) to be considered when you answer.
As far as I know, Pakistan is spending 5 billion per year over its defence. After these Mirage 2000-5 report, another report claimed that Pakistan is preparing for 2 - 2.5 billion to buy new aircrafts. 5 billion is more then enough for any country's defence. And I dont think salaries will be paid in billions of dollers.

2) As with usual practice world-wide, when a war break out between 2 countries. The war arms & ammunation purchased (not the ones produced in the ordiance factory), supplies, fuel etc. from the world usually becomes expensive and hard cash oriented. How long in terms of ( Days ) will 12 billion in ur coffers run out.
Not even India will throw more then 10 billion if a war breaks out. It wants economy to be increased more and more. All I have to say is that dont worry about the money we have. We know how to defend ourselves.

Plz think logically and answer the two questions as I have nothing personal against you but feel that it makes a lil sence to think of a war senario with the facts completely discussed with refernce to purchase of arms and ammuntions.
1. America will block Mirage 2000-5 for Pakistan. :lolol

2. IMF and World Bank will block Mirage 2000-5 for Pakistan. :lolol

3. India will not allow France to sell these aircrafts to Pakistan. :lolol

4. If Pakistan tries to buy Mirage 2000-5, US will immidiately ask for its money and hence Pakistan will not be able to pay for aircrafts. :lolol

5. Pakistan has 30+ bn debt. Therefore it cant buy aircrafts. :lolol

THESE ARE THE JOKES OF THE DAY. DO U THINK THESE STUPID CLAIMS MAKES ANY SENCE ?
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for ????

no. all those claims are just made up!!!
i just don't see how america can stop pakistan from buying french hardware.
 

corsair7772

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
America stopped france from selling us a reprocessing facility. Theres a chance tht it might stop a sale again.
 

Revival_786

New Member
It is the corrupt leaders that made the Pakistan economy backward... if it wasn't for them we'd be much better off. Btw, Pakistan's economy is doing great now Mashallah :)
 

The Watcher

New Member
1. America will block Mirage 2000-5 for Pakistan.

2. IMF and World Bank will block Mirage 2000-5 for Pakistan.

3. India will not allow France to sell these aircrafts to Pakistan.

4. If Pakistan tries to buy Mirage 2000-5, US will immidiately ask for its money and hence Pakistan will not be able to pay for aircrafts.

5. Pakistan has 30+ bn debt. Therefore it cant buy aircrafts.
:lolol

I know some people still think of Pakistan which was like 5 years ago and they wish to tell people same misinformation even though realities are far more different today than they were 5 years ago. The idea of backward pakistan and bad image of pakistan makes some people so comfortable that they fail to grasp on to the realities of today. :roll
 

Roger Smith

New Member
Oqaab said:
7) Pakistan is heavily dependent of International Financial Institutions like World Bank, IMF and others., they will object and may refrain from further loans.
How do U know that ? Have U read any report from IMF or World Bank ? When IMF and World Band cant stop India, how can they stop Pakistan ?

Secondly, If we are returning all the money, that means we dont need money from these banks now (Alhumdolillah). So stop dreaming, nobody will try to stop Pakistan from making conventional or nuclear weapons.
Oqaab

You are too sensitive, I am backing my aforementioned statement from a Pakistani news media.

"World Bank to approves $3 billion assistance"

Islamabad: Feb 20: The World Bank has pledged to approve a three-year $3 billion country assistance strategy for Pakistan on March 11 and release $300 million under the Poverty Reduction Strategy Paper in April.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/02/21/top8.htm

Oqaab, do you think World Bank's loans or assistance are without any strings attached to Pakistan? If you think that way and Pakistan can avail its funds buying arms then beg World Bank and IMF for more funds, you are highly mistaken. These International Financial Institutions are there to make money and know how to safe guard their funds from countries they give loan.
 
Top