Please tell me why you have to lie about the M1A2 Abrahms. There is no tank in the world that can claim it's premier spot as #1, especially to be taken off the best tanks list period. Your claims of reliability are totally false. You claim that she is unreliable b/c she only gets 100km off of 500 gallons of gas... I call this a lie, she gets 290 MILES off a tank, that equals 466km, beating your false claims by a factor of 4.6! That 4.6 equals about the factor you divide the true capabilities of the tank and her readiness levels, all US M1A2 tank brigades rate at 96% operational readiness after 2003, higher than ANY countries tank forces. The reason her maintenance costs are so high b/c US actually uses her tanks unlike most countries.Soner1980 said:
Turkey to buy German tanks
- Thread starter P.A.F
- Start date
Not again a nr.1 discussion. You cannot really say who is nr.1!!!!! 
I also heard these rumors about fuel problems and some minor maintenance problems with the turbine.
But for sure you have to take into account that the US tank force has much more operations than most other tank forces in the world.
If I look at how many maintenance and reliability problems other NATO forces and ex-Warsaw Pact forces have during maneuvers the operational rates of the US tanks are good (Especially for battlefield environments).
I also heard these rumors about fuel problems and some minor maintenance problems with the turbine.
But for sure you have to take into account that the US tank force has much more operations than most other tank forces in the world.
If I look at how many maintenance and reliability problems other NATO forces and ex-Warsaw Pact forces have during maneuvers the operational rates of the US tanks are good (Especially for battlefield environments).
Agreed. M1A2 is a superb tank and i am sure Turkish Armed Forces would have it considered if sufficient tech transfer was allowed (this is not possible because of US laws). Same laws caused the AH-1Z and AH-64D to be out of the ATAK tender as well.
As in all equipment imo there is no best in tanks too. Battlefield is not won with tanks or helos or infantry alone.. Its the combined use of tactical assets in the most efficient way that brings victory in a battlefield.
As in all equipment imo there is no best in tanks too. Battlefield is not won with tanks or helos or infantry alone.. Its the combined use of tactical assets in the most efficient way that brings victory in a battlefield.
Yes ok, the Leopard-2A6, M1A2, Leclerc and T-84 scored very well in the tests. But it is reported that the Leopard-2A6 was the best in the trials in Turkey. The M1A2 is better in trials than the Leo-2 in US soil because of the country or other things like the ground or something. General Dynamics is also offering the M1A2 with a German powerpack called EuroPack or something.
It is also known by Turkish Army that the Leo-2A6 is faster ready for war than the M1A2, maybe in couple of minutes but in war times, every second does count. I have read this and ofcource I wasn't there when the trials were. But if the US Congress had approved the tech transfer, they will try to sell the Abrams in the Abrams Lite version like the Apache with a lesser capable radar system for tech transfer.
Overall, the M1A2 was also in my favor for the Turkish Armored Units but the test was clear that the longer barreled Leo-2A6 was more useful than the Abrams in Turkish hands.
It is also known by Turkish Army that the Leo-2A6 is faster ready for war than the M1A2, maybe in couple of minutes but in war times, every second does count. I have read this and ofcource I wasn't there when the trials were. But if the US Congress had approved the tech transfer, they will try to sell the Abrams in the Abrams Lite version like the Apache with a lesser capable radar system for tech transfer.
Overall, the M1A2 was also in my favor for the Turkish Armored Units but the test was clear that the longer barreled Leo-2A6 was more useful than the Abrams in Turkish hands.
The tank tender in early 2000s resulted with selection of Leopard IIA6. The competitors were including Leclerc,M1,T-84(ukr). Leopard II excelled in all the field and fire tests meeting or exceeding Turkish Armed Forces expectations however due to political problems with Germany at that time the deal never was signed.
Meanwhile on USA and Israel competed for the M60 modernisation project, USA offering M-60 with M1 tower , while Israel offered the SabraIII. USA withdrew in favor of Israel while Israel didnt participate in the tank tender.
Meanwhile on USA and Israel competed for the M60 modernisation project, USA offering M-60 with M1 tower , while Israel offered the SabraIII. USA withdrew in favor of Israel while Israel didnt participate in the tank tender.
The same result like in the tank trials of Sweden, Spain and Greece before...
But the M1 is battle proven... (Just a little joke)
The main problem was indeed a political one. The german side was not willing to sale them to turkey because we are normally not allowed to sell mil tech to unstable/crisis regions. And east turkey is definitely no stable region. Some of our politicians where worried about that the Leos could be used to surpress the kurdes.
Now this changed but by now Turkey wants to modernize the Leos by themselfes.
We want to make money.
That's the reason for Turkey's trying to develop a new tank of their own.
But the M1 is battle proven...
(Just a little joke)The main problem was indeed a political one. The german side was not willing to sale them to turkey because we are normally not allowed to sell mil tech to unstable/crisis regions. And east turkey is definitely no stable region. Some of our politicians where worried about that the Leos could be used to surpress the kurdes.
Now this changed but by now Turkey wants to modernize the Leos by themselfes.
We want to make money.
That's the reason for Turkey's trying to develop a new tank of their own.
There is a commercial of a chocolate called ROLO here in the Netherlands. They say 'Bedenk goed wat je met de laatste Rolo doet' this means think again what you want to do with your last Rolo chocolate. The same factor for the damned Green party in Germany wich supported the PKK terrorist insurgency to chop our country in pieces. But they failed and PKK is not called an enemy now because most of them have killed or have surrendered. After the rejection of the German cause, Turkey has given up the tank project because of the economic crisis and choosed for the Israeli Sabra upgrade of $ 670 million for the 170 USMC (supplied for free) M60A1 tanks plus the tech transfer for the electronics and mechanics. The armor is not included in the tech transfer but it is also easily done if you pay Chinese firms I think.
It is not the Sabra III upgrade what many people thinks. It is a Sabra II upgrade but with the Merkava III bas Fire control system and a 980 hp diesel engine and the LAHAT system. The 120mm CTG is almost the same as in the Merkava 4 MBT. So, it is a very special version I think...
In 2003, Germany made an offer to re-open the tank project but Erdogan has answered the question with that Turkey does not have any interest anymore in German tanks and Turkey has plans to manufacture it's own MBT in the future. Yes, German politicians did not spend their ROLO chocolate in the right time...
The evidence of the test result of the 4 tanks? I'm not the official that has the files of the test result. I had read it on newspapers and it was given from the Turkish Secreteriat of Defence. I can't help you for this but if you are very interested in the test result I can only say just ask it from the Turkish Secreteriat of Defence.
but it is also easily done if you pay Chinese firms I think.It is not the Sabra III upgrade what many people thinks. It is a Sabra II upgrade but with the Merkava III bas Fire control system and a 980 hp diesel engine and the LAHAT system. The 120mm CTG is almost the same as in the Merkava 4 MBT. So, it is a very special version I think...
In 2003, Germany made an offer to re-open the tank project but Erdogan has answered the question with that Turkey does not have any interest anymore in German tanks and Turkey has plans to manufacture it's own MBT in the future. Yes, German politicians did not spend their ROLO chocolate in the right time...
The evidence of the test result of the 4 tanks? I'm not the official that has the files of the test result. I had read it on newspapers and it was given from the Turkish Secreteriat of Defence. I can't help you for this but if you are very interested in the test result I can only say just ask it from the Turkish Secreteriat of Defence.
Better to think twice were to sell our weapons!
It is our decision were to sell our weapons and just think about who could use our weapons if we would sell them to everyone without scruples. (Lets take the stingers of the Taliban as an example...)
But Big-E is right, it's getting too political.
It is our decision were to sell our weapons and just think about who could use our weapons if we would sell them to everyone without scruples. (Lets take the stingers of the Taliban as an example...)
But Big-E is right, it's getting too political.
Yes, it is a political question and my opinion to that is one word: bullshit.
If the Green party of Germany had approved the joint production for 1000 Leopard-2A6 tanks, than Turkey has now the first delivery and Germany had 7 billion at least receiving now just when Germany needed it. Yes, you should think twice were to sell your weapons and you must think 3 times where to buy your weapons that you can not eat crack from politicians. Turkey bought 375 leopard-1 series tanks in 1980-'84 and Turkey may not use them in conflicts? Are the weapons for show or something? Why Turkey pay for it, when we are in war (Germany vs. Turkey, it will never happen we know but just think if...) then Turkey would use German made Leopard-1's against Germany. Just saying using German pistols to execute German POW's. This is very painful when a Turkish foreign ministry spokesman told to the media in 1998 when Turkey started a big operation against the terrorist PKK in northern Iraq and the 'Greenery' party made big problems also effecting German economy. Shall Turkey ever buy weapons from Germany now? Turkey has now bought licenses to produce some vehicles, one example the Fennek. Now Turkey will produce self it's vehicles with German origin but Germany has lost in long terms only for one thing in a very dumb action. Germany can earn from Turkey ($ 7bln tank tender example) but Germany can not earn from terrorist.
And the tender in producing tanks under license, the US M1A2 abrams was also selected to the best tanks of the world. There are few best tanks in the world to mention: Leo-2A6, M1A2 SEP, Leclerc, T-84 and the Challenger 2. Challenger was the worstest of all 5 and then the leclerc, then T-84, The M1A2 SEP 2nd and Leo-2A6 the best. All had excellent scores but there is ony one the best choosen because of it's lower maintenance cost and quicker prepared for war: The Leo-2A6. The M1A2 SEP lost it because of it's Gas Turbine, slightly taked more time to be ready after operation and a bit more expensive in maintenance than the Leo-2A6. Overall, all 5 were good in warfare capabilities, mobility and reliability.
Also some rumors were in the US congress to not to sale the SEP version but only the M1A1 version like Egypt (also called the Abrams Lite in Turkish media when heard). Then Turkey has kicked out the US of it's list and only the T-84 and the Leo-2A6 was in the list. The T-84 is also a good tank and it is known of the T-80's succes. The T-84 has much more sophisticated computer systems than the original Russian T-80 and is more reliable too. Also it is cheaper and very robust for it's price/quality ratio. The Ukranians has confirmed to transfer technology and also to co-produce it for further customers. Why the US does not want to share tech is that the US will maintain it's exclusivitality, yes I understand but that time is over now.
If the Green party of Germany had approved the joint production for 1000 Leopard-2A6 tanks, than Turkey has now the first delivery and Germany had 7 billion at least receiving now just when Germany needed it. Yes, you should think twice were to sell your weapons and you must think 3 times where to buy your weapons that you can not eat crack from politicians. Turkey bought 375 leopard-1 series tanks in 1980-'84 and Turkey may not use them in conflicts? Are the weapons for show or something? Why Turkey pay for it, when we are in war (Germany vs. Turkey, it will never happen we know but just think if...) then Turkey would use German made Leopard-1's against Germany. Just saying using German pistols to execute German POW's. This is very painful when a Turkish foreign ministry spokesman told to the media in 1998 when Turkey started a big operation against the terrorist PKK in northern Iraq and the 'Greenery' party made big problems also effecting German economy. Shall Turkey ever buy weapons from Germany now? Turkey has now bought licenses to produce some vehicles, one example the Fennek. Now Turkey will produce self it's vehicles with German origin but Germany has lost in long terms only for one thing in a very dumb action. Germany can earn from Turkey ($ 7bln tank tender example) but Germany can not earn from terrorist.
And the tender in producing tanks under license, the US M1A2 abrams was also selected to the best tanks of the world. There are few best tanks in the world to mention: Leo-2A6, M1A2 SEP, Leclerc, T-84 and the Challenger 2. Challenger was the worstest of all 5 and then the leclerc, then T-84, The M1A2 SEP 2nd and Leo-2A6 the best. All had excellent scores but there is ony one the best choosen because of it's lower maintenance cost and quicker prepared for war: The Leo-2A6. The M1A2 SEP lost it because of it's Gas Turbine, slightly taked more time to be ready after operation and a bit more expensive in maintenance than the Leo-2A6. Overall, all 5 were good in warfare capabilities, mobility and reliability.
Also some rumors were in the US congress to not to sale the SEP version but only the M1A1 version like Egypt (also called the Abrams Lite in Turkish media when heard). Then Turkey has kicked out the US of it's list and only the T-84 and the Leo-2A6 was in the list. The T-84 is also a good tank and it is known of the T-80's succes. The T-84 has much more sophisticated computer systems than the original Russian T-80 and is more reliable too. Also it is cheaper and very robust for it's price/quality ratio. The Ukranians has confirmed to transfer technology and also to co-produce it for further customers. Why the US does not want to share tech is that the US will maintain it's exclusivitality, yes I understand but that time is over now.
Good point beleg, Israel is now giving us technology what is also US developed tech and further 'Israelized' version, like the Knight III Fire control system in the Sabra upgrade.
If the US had agreed to give some tech to Turkey in the ATAK project for the AH-64D Longbow and the M1A2 SEP, than the US has earned at least $10 billion and a US citizen had also profit of it.
But, now what you said Big-E, it will com from the east (China, Pakistan or Korea) I think. But recently the US has agreed to transfer F-35 tech to developing countries and the sale of the F-22 raptor what was a big debate in the US Congress.
If the US had agreed to give some tech to Turkey in the ATAK project for the AH-64D Longbow and the M1A2 SEP, than the US has earned at least $10 billion and a US citizen had also profit of it.
But, now what you said Big-E, it will com from the east (China, Pakistan or Korea) I think. But recently the US has agreed to transfer F-35 tech to developing countries and the sale of the F-22 raptor what was a big debate in the US Congress.
I have found something about the Turkish Leopard-2A4's bought from German army stocks last year. It seems that the Turkish Army has been offered to upgrade their Leo-2A4's by ASELSAN. The upgrade comprises of the Kartalgözü 2 thermal imager and a longer 120mm tank gun. Also some extra armor will be placed on the front of the hull and side-front skirt.
But it is not clear of this upgrade will be done after the refurbishment by the German firm Kraus-Maffei-Wegmann.
Picture of Leo-2A4
But it is not clear of this upgrade will be done after the refurbishment by the German firm Kraus-Maffei-Wegmann.
Picture of Leo-2A4
Maybe, but about the electronics I am not laying wake-up so much about it last days because all possible. Turkey has a lot of knowledge in designing and producing state of the art electronic systems for AFV's and other military vehicles.
But the longer barrelled 120mm gun, is this import from Rheinmetal? The muzzle brake is the same as the original one.
But the longer barrelled 120mm gun, is this import from Rheinmetal? The muzzle brake is the same as the original one.
That picture was taken in IDEF2005. When I talked to Aselsan & KMW engineers there , Aselsan engineers were pessimist about such an upgrade to be done locally, saying German govt. was not allowing it. KMW was also insisting on modernising the tanks (even upgrading them to A6 std).
There is still no news, even on defence mags on the course of the project.
Where are those tanks?
There is still no news, even on defence mags on the course of the project.
Where are those tanks?