Turkey to buy German tanks

[Waylander]

I don't think that Azerbaijan or some other country is going to take the M48s. It is too easy for them to get cheap russian equipment which is more capable than the M48s.
Even the T-72M export versions are much better and very cheap by now. And you could also purchase old Leopard IA5 from germany, belgium, denmark, etc. They are also not very good armored but fast and with good TCs and hunter killer capabilities.

 

[Soner1980]

It is true that the T-72 is better than M48. But If Turkey has the privileges to give it away for free? It is all possible because my uncle has driven a truck with other drivers they have brought many small arms and light artillery to Azerbaijan for free. This is true because my uncle has said this and he have driven many times in the early 1990's. And why the M48A5's wich are upgraded with thermal sights, tabilization, laser rangefinders etc.. Ok they are old and less capable than the T-72. Azerbaijan can buy other T-55 and T-72's. They have 150 T-72 and 134 T-55. They can reinforce their fleet with NATO arms such as the Leopard-1's and maybe Leopard-2A4's.

Have you an idea what the 2A46 125mm SB cannon specifications are? Also the performance? And what against a Leopard-2A4 it will have?

 

[beleg]

Great posts guys.

A few pix of upgraded Turkish M-60s

and a picture of LeoI Volkan upgrade designed by Aselsan

Aslesan is already developing a newer FCS for the TMBT project and such a system is an option to be used on Leo2a4s IF the deal between Turkey and Germany allows Turkey to upgrade the tanks locally.

I have been in the Leo2A6 and its an impressive tank. Leo2 is a great addition to TAF and i hope KMW will be selected as tech partner for the TMBT project.

 

[Soner1980]

I have also been in a Leopard2A5 and A4. There is not much differnce if you see the inside. Turkey have them modernized by Germany. There is no option to upgrade them locally. But Turkey will upgrade them a few years later when the Sabra and the Volkan project is completed. The Leopard 2 is one of the most tuneable AFV's in the world. Maybe you can see it with another upgrade wich make radical changes to the original Leopard-2 design like the Sabra or something.

Can you also confirm that the pictures are real Turkish pictures? I have seen the pictures a time ago and I think that they are shot on Israeli test track.

The Volkan pictures is rather old. Look to the copyright logo : Turkey does not have any Leopard1's with the Volkan upgrade yet or at least in very small numbers. The project is completed in early 2007.

 

[beleg]

Hi,
Let me clarify some point to the best of my knowledge.

1- Germany is not upgrading or modernising the leo2a4s. The tanks are being refurbished only.

2- There is no detail on the agreement released, at least in Turkey and i know that the talks had stalled a few times because of Turkeys request to modernise the tanks later in Turkey with local technology while KMW was urging German gov. for a modernisation work to be done in Germany. I have validated this when i talked to some KMW representatives. So we can clearly say today Turkey has the necessary tech to modernise A4s to A6 levels in terms of fire power and accuracy and we are also supposed to have some armor tech developed by then, to add additional protection to our Leo2s.

In IDEF 2005 the engineers in Aselsan had said they are already working on an improved Volkan II system which TAF might want to use in Leo2 upgrades.

3- The M-60 pix are supposed to be shot in Turkey during trials of the tank.
But i cannot say its 100% because i didnt shoot them

4- Volkan picture is not that old (25/9/2005 IDEF Ankara). I know the date because i have taken it .Currently Volkan is in production phase and the Leo1a1s in TAF inventory are being modernised but like you said the project has recently begun.

I think when the modernised Leo1s and M-60s are being delivered to TAF we will see a parade concerning it.

One note about M-60s, as far as i know every moving part of the tank is changed in the tank, this includes transmissions,gear,engine,tracks etc. So its basicly a cheap new tank. Its armor is same armor used on Merkava IV (not III) . It has one of the state of the art fire control systems and gun available. So in their current state, despite the relatively low armor protection, they are better armed than the Leo2a4s which we will start receiving shortly..

 

[Waylander]

Are you sure that you are able to develop a gun and ammo similar to the L/55 with DM53/63?
There is also the question if the combination of modern and old armor (The basic armor of the M60 still remains in place) gives you the same level of protection like the full integrated armor of the Leo II A4.

 

[Soner1980]

Yes beleg, you are right. The Leo-2A4 are just to be refurbished by the Germans. I was wrong in words...

But the Sabra is not as much good I think. Because there are many 'beginner' problems wich must also be solved. The Sabra is a whole new project for Israel and also a very cheap upgrade to Turkey with a tech transfer.

The Volkan II upgrade, I don't know about it but the leo-2A4 that it can be upgraded by Turkey is very clever by ASELSAN and MKEK group. But Turkey has the technology and the 'know how' to develop a tank gun. In the 1980's Turkey has produced over 460 105mm M68T and L7 rifled tank guns for the 90mm M48 series to be upgraded to the M48A5 and then the T1 and T2 series.

But now the 120mm is not a rifle, it is a smoothbore like in hunting shotguns but bigger and also more sophisticated. The first smoothbore tank guns were first developed by the Soviets in the late 1950's for the T-62 MBT's. The U-5T 115mm tank gun (later D-68 in the first T-64's and later 2A20 able to fire the Sheksna missile) has a muzzle velocity of 1615 meters per seconds. And with the BD 36/2 APFSDS-T round it is able to penetrate 520mm (RHA, 71° angle) at 1,000 m. The gun fires the BD 36/2 round to a range of maximum of 3000 meters acurately.

Turkey to develop a 120mm smoothbore gun? I don't know but it is possible if there is enough money It is also possible to co-produce the 120mm smoothbore gun wich Ukraine also produces with NATO ammo compliance I think.

 

[Waylander]

I have no doubts that you are able to develop a 120mm smothbore gun or develop it together with the ukrainians. The question is if you want very, very much money into a gun where it is not sure if you are able to develop one with the same power like the L/55 with DM63. You could save the money and buy it. There are enough other european countrys buying it.

 

[Soner1980]

Developing a tank gun needs much of money and time for it's research. The new Rheinmetall 120mm L55 smoothbore gun is 'the gun' of the next generation MBT's. Let the Chinese experiment with it's artillery based 152mm tank gun. It is too big and you will have less ammo in your tank like the JS-1/2 and 3 heavy tanks wich had only 21 rounds while the Germans had about 90 rounds in its 88mm armed Tiger tanks.

I am also with you Weylander, to buy tank guns or like the US, produce it under license like the M256. It is easier and then you have also tech tranfer and you have your replacement guns for weared guns on the Leopard-2's.

But I don't understand why Germany not gived Turkey the right to upgrade the Leo-2A4's in Turkey by Turkish firms. ASELSAN produces a better fire control system and thermal imagers than the 1980's era thermal imager and Turkey has also the capability to up-armor it with extra armor.

 

[Waylander]

Because we get no money if you do it by yourself.
Pure economy.

 

[Soner1980]

But okay, Turkey is now buying them with only refurbisment. Surely Turkey will upgrade them when the fun is out playing with the Leo-2A4's.

But is not a matter, my opinion said to me that the 300 leopard-2a4's are a temporary solution till the Turkish national tank program will start and deliver the first Turkish MBT to the TAF. And then we have party :drunk1

 

[beleg]

One of the main reason Israelis and their huge price tag was chosen is the tech transfer of a 120 mm L52 smothbore gun on Turkish M-60Ts. Its not wether we can make a 120 mm anymore, its can we make a L55 with minimum foreign asistence with limited budget. Or buy the complete L55 gun from Germany or others. I guess if this is not feasible the first Turkish tank prototype might have a L52 gun like in M-60T(sabra). In fact many things will clear up in the coming months after the decision on the foreing company who will asisst Turkish company(ies) who will be responsible for the design and the develeopment of the tank.

The ammo is a problem. I think Turkey will initially build a platform then choose to buy suitable ammo and then develop a national ammo like in the K-9/T-155 co operation with Korea.

Soner like waylander mentioned Germany might have squeezed in the option to modernise a4s by KMW for economical reasons. I really would like to know the details on this but there is nothing revaled yet.The option to modernise these tanks will surely be needed since Leo2 is currently the best tank out there and every penny spent on them is worth.

Sabra is not on par with latest gen tanks on defence comparison but its quite on par with them in fire control systems and the gun. So it has its drawbacks and bonuses. Its a very tought decision if Turkey will go on with Volkan and Sabra projects after the first batches or will seek additional Leo2s.

 

[Soner1980]

What I will do in such a case, modernize the aging tanks and sell them all to Turkish allies like Azerbaijan and Bosnia Herzegovina. Also the other Turkish countries can make use of our upgrades for their aging T-55 or T-72 tanks.

What Turkey is to learn is the technology and how to upgrade a much more advanced MBT like the Leopard-2A4 to a Leopard-2T for example. That the Leopard-2T can match against the Leopard-2A6 or M1A2 SEP MBT's or something.

But Turkey can also develop more indigenous designs, the Turkish defense industry is also in a good state but it has not much involvement to do something. The first indigenous upgrade package is the Volkan for the Leopard-1's. And later the M60's will also be upgraded by Turkish companies to the Sabra configuration, maybe also with minor changes learnt by the 170 already upgraded M60A1's by IMI in Kayseri.

Back to the Leo-2A4, we know that the whole EU countries are low on budget. The Germans have make a very big fault in 2000 to not to agree with the 1000 Leopard-2A6 co-production in Turkey for the Turkish Armed Forces. That's the reason why Turkey does not want to buy anything from the abroad, only when it is very cheap like the Leo-2A4 deal. The knife is to the bone now... But we also need money and therefore Turkish officials are also not dumb and we will also do anything to do all the job in Turkish soil. Israel is a really a good business partner to sell tech to our country. We will also have research to upgrade the Sabra and Volkan packages to a more advanced package for the upcomming National Tank Design. Turkey is able to produce a hull and turret, main armament, electronics like radio and FCS, night sights, etc.. But about armor technology, I don't know if we can produce laminated armor. Yes we can but effective laminated against HEAT or KE is not easy. Therefore, every tech transfer will bring information and if spend in a good way, Turkey can join the world arms dealers soon.

 

[Waylander]

Like you two I also think that building electronics, track systems, optics, etc. is not the problem for a normal industrial country.
The main problem ist developing a state of the art laminated armor and a state of the art gun together with its ammo.
For electronics, optics driving systems, etc. there are normally many company which have at least some civil experience in similar systems. For guns and armor there are no civil counterparts and it is very expensive and frustrating developing them without an own stock of experience where you can draw upon.

 

[Soner1980]

Ok it's true, but with up-armoring you can learn how armor plates are made. Also the armor production needs a test center to test it with live ammunition.

The same for the gaun system. MKE is a company who has produces weapons since it's existence in the early 1950's. They have already produced gun systems for the army. But developing a new gun is also complicated. I also think Turkey will buy from Germany or France or maybe from Ukraine.

The ammo, Turkey is now producing only the 105mm tank ammo like HE, HEAT and APFSDS-T rounds in Kirikkale wich are state-of-the-art products, east province of Ankara in the MKE facilities. Here there is also need for a laborarory to test new material before going to full production. I think it is possible to produce them in Turkey.

 

[Waylander]

For sure it's possible. Money is the point.
The question is how much do you want to be independent from foreign military industries and how much do you want to pay for that goal.

 

[Soner1980]

Yes that is the thing that Turkey must decide with limited funding. I think the same like you wrote above. After the willpower, money = everything.

Turkey has first met embargo in 1974 when the Cyprus war borke out. When Turkish Army was to liberate the Turkish people from the Greek supplied EOKA terrorists, some countries has answered with a weapons embargo to Turkey.

Then Turkey was cornered and unable to comply with it's military projects. Also the Turkish defensive industries was only producing ammo. No guns or something. There was a licensed production with the German Shipyard Howaldswerke Deutsche Werft in Kiel to produce the 209 class submarine for the Turkish navy. Then Turkey had WWII era subs and in 1972 the first production was started. In 1976 The 209 class was renamed to the Ay class because of it's local modifications on it and the production was now carried to Turkey in Gölcük.

And only the Cobra ATGM was built entirely in Turkey when it also used in the Cyprus war against the Greeks. And then, Turkey was unable to built something for the army. No tanks, ships, guns, rockets, etc.. Everything was import except the subs.

And now the lessons are learned, like Germany in the 1950's when the ban for weapons production was lifted, so we felt also when the embargo was raised in the 1980's. Now to avoid the effect of any weapons embargo, you have to be selfsuffient to arm your armed forces.

 

[Waylander]

It's the same with sweden. In WWII they learned it the hard way that they were to vulnerable to foreign weapons imports.
Since then they have had a very good and capable weapons industry for such a small country.
But even this very rich country is not able or willing to produce everything by themselves.

 

[beleg]

Waylander has hit the mark with his comment on the armor. currently what most people think or worry about is this. Unfortunately we dont know what level of know how Turkey has on armor tech. Hence the need for foreign tech assistance.

I am quite sure the walking parts of the tanks will be supplied from well known companies (like MTU,Renk etc) or licence built in Turkey.

Gun can be a MKEK design since they have a good background with 105mm and now have 120/L52 tech. MKEK has the know how of 120/L52. So the problem is will the TMBT have the same gun or a L55. Ammo will be the next step after gun is decided.

FCS,opticals, electronics required for network centric warfare and other various electronical stuff will be designed & developed by Aselsan. Infact they are already working on prototypes.

Passive protection systems will probably be bought off the shelf.

Active protection systems.. currently no details.

Armor is the main problem. There are researches in Turkey for installing a boron-carbur armor on helicopters and possibly to IFVs against medium to higher caliber cannon fire but laminated high tech tank armor is another story. Its the most difficult part for us and its the most cloudy one. Some say IMI has transferred some knowledge on armor tech and some say this is not true. I believe the second part for now. So foreign asistence will be required here. But i am not sure if a foreign company will want to share their top secret armor tech. I am also not sure if Turkey will really want to let foreigners know what kind of materials are used in the armor and what its weakness might be. So here Korea with their new MTB K-2 might be a better tech supplier than Germany or France.

An important note Ukraine is out of the question. For the request for technical support & assistance (RfTSA)

* Agency for Defence Development [S. Korea],
* GIAT Industries [France],
* Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH & Co. KG [Germany], and
* Rheinmetall LandSysteme GmbH [Germany].

have replied and one of them will be selected by SSM (secreteriat for defence industry) to work with the Turkish constructor company..

Not that other than Ukraine, USA is not on the list with GDLS maker of M1

regards

 

[Soner1980]

It is true that the Us haven't listed. They will sell only and for strategic marketing, the US does not want to sell technology. They want to lead and not te be leaded.

But is not a problem, the US M1A2 is also not the best MBT anymore. At least, one Dutch high ranking officer said to me that the Abrams does not deserve to be listed in the 'best tanks of the world' it is also expensive and not reliable. Why not reliably? Uses more fuel than expected in Iraq. Every 100 km tanks must be refueled. And readiness for war was also low rated. The most frustrating is that the maintenance cost was very high.

Poland is known user of the Leo-2A4 and are played out of the old Leo-2A4. They have seen that the A4's are obselete by todays standards in armor. With DU rounds it is possible to penetrate the front at 2 km range with the new M821A2 or A3.

The 298 Leopard-2A4 is only to fill the gap That Greece is buying about 150 Leo-2A4's and later the A6E. That's the reason Turkey is about to produce it's own MBT in the next decade. More revolutionaire and better in maintenance. Overall, a completely new tank will arise and will replace the total amount of aging 1369 M48A5T1 tanks.