The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

ngatimozart · May 1, 2022

A Q&A on the Azov Battalion that may help with some understanding of it. Before anyone complains about it, read the bottom about the author's credentials.

They defend Mariupol - Q&A on Ukraine's Azov Battalion (empr.media)

Feanor · May 1, 2022

ngatimozart said:
A Q&A on the Azov Battalion that may help with some understanding of it. Before anyone complains about it, read the bottom about the author's credentials.

They defend Mariupol - Q&A on Ukraine's Azov Battalion (empr.media)

I seriously question his objectivity based on statements like this:

10. Are the members of the organization involved in war crimes?

Click to expand...

It is known that only a court determines whether a person is a criminal. However, with the regard to war crimes committed during the armed conflict, it is more difficult. Even Vladimir Putin and Sergei Shoigu have not been recognized as war criminals, at least not yet. If we rephrase the question: “Are there credible grounds to assume that Azov fighters may be suspected of committing war crimes”, the answer will be yes. There are grounds to believe that in 2014 some fighters violated the laws and customs of war towards civilians. However, such cases were not systemic and those who probably committed crimes have left the unit by 2015 at the latest.In addition, it is worth adding that there are grounds to believe that in 2014 rare violations of the laws and customs of war took place in almost every unit. Moreover, according to the known information, there were fewer violations like this in “ideological” formations, such as Azov or the Ukrainian Right Sector Volunteer Corps, than in the “ordinary ones“ (for example, the infamous battalion Tornado).It seems that the SBU (The Security Service of Ukraine) was the biggest human rights violator in the ATO zone (Anti-Terrorist Operation Zone) from the contact line side controlled by the Ukrainian government. However, the scale of the violations cannot be compared to the bloody lawlessness of pro-Russian armed groups on the temporarily occupied territory.

We have repeated allegations of war crimes from Mariupol' residents. It's entirely plausible that some of those allegations are true. Yet he confidently dismisses this stating that anyone who committed crimes left by 2015 "at the latest".... he then claims that Azov as an ideological formation is different from Tornado. This is silly. Both were volunteer btlns formed under MVD auspices. One turned to politics and violence, the other to just organized crime. There is nothing ordinary about either unit. Compare Azov to a regular piece of the Ukrainian military, Interior Troops or Army. Instead this author compares Azov to literally the most criminally infamous volunteer formation in the Ukrainian armed forces...

He then promptly contradicts himself:

14. Azov fighters commit war crimes in Mariupol (both stories of 2014 and from February 24 separately)?

As mentioned above, individual cases with a certain probability could take place.

Did he just say that all those who committed war crimes left in '15? Who's committing them now? He quickly cites this:

The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission, which was present in Mariupol until the end of February 2022 (and continues to work in Donetsk), did not record such cases at all.

How convenient. Most of the allegations I've seen (and shared here) come after the city was blockaded by Russian troops. And it makes sense, desperate defenders do desperate things.

He finishes off with a link to the Azov home webpage, stating:

You may visit official website of Azov regiment to lear more information, to support organization or to send request and joint the regiment.

This is not an impartial observer. This is an author who has taken a side in this conflict. He is correct in saying that the truth lies where it lies, not in the middle. I would love to see his response to the repeated and consistent use of Nazi symbols and imagery by force-wielding structures, state and otherwise, in Ukraine. How come, inevitably, soldiers pop up in photos with emblems of various SS units? How come the Azov National Corps, that the author carefully separates from the Azov regiment, received Ukrainian state funding to run summer camps for children? Bellingcat, as late as 2019, ran articles arguing for a connection between the Azov Regiment and the Azov National Corps, and specifically countered the idea that Azov Regiment is somehow no longer connected to right wing extremism. They even cite an FBI investigation that claims Azov Regiment not only maintained ties with right wing extremists but participated in training and radicalizing right wing extremists from America, who traveled to Ukraine for that purpose.

"Defend the White Race": American Extremists Being Co-Opted by Ukraine's Far-Right - bellingcat

Translations:English (UK)Русский (Россия)Newly uncovered evidence going back to 2015 suggests that the Ukrainian white nationalist Azov movement has been systematically co-opting American right-wing extremists to advance the former’s own international agenda. In audio statements uncovered by...

www.bellingcat.com

Ukrainian Far-Right Extremists Receive State Funds to Teach "Patriotism" - bellingcat

Translations:English (UK)Русский (Россия)Authored and researched by Oleksiy Kuzmenko, Michael Colborne Ahead of Ukrainian parliamentary elections on July 21, it is clear from polling data that Ukraine’s far-right groups and their ideas enjoy little popular support among its citizens. Despite...

www.bellingcat.com

I'm highly skeptical of articles that attempt to whitewash Azov in the wake of the Russian invasion. Regardless of how much Ukraine is the victim of Russian aggression, this doesn't move the needle one inch on the nature of Azov itself. Attempting to talk around it in glib phrases and blanket denials is inherently suspect, and there is very little of substance in this article.

In my opinion this article is not aimed at objective reality, but is a piece of the continuing information war and is written to accomplish a partisan objective.

ngatimozart · May 1, 2022

Well who are releasing the Mariupol residents claims of war crimes etc., by the Azov battalion? If they're coming from Russian and / or rebel sources then that makes such claims highly suspicious. If they're coming from Ukrainian sources then they are worth investigating.

Ananda · May 1, 2022

Why the claim for War Crimes only worth investigating if comes from Ukrainian ? Both Russian and Ukranian are not above lying. Butcha War Crime comes to attention especially in West due to Ukranian claim.

Thus that's not make War Crime done by Azov batalions as some Mariupol civilian claims (as Russian and Rebels media put), basically in similar state like what Ukranian claimant? All just still claims.

The War Crimes accusation will always come from opposite sides. There's no way Ukranian especially Zelensky regime will aknowledged any war crimes done by their precious Azov Batalions.

Sorry both sides are not beyond lying for propaganda benefits. Thus both claims on war crimes should be treated equally as grain of salt as large of sea of azov it self.

There're should be impartiality on treating any war crimes accusation from either both side. Both side accusations must be treated equally.

Feanor · May 1, 2022

ngatimozart said:
Well who are releasing the Mariupol residents claims of war crimes etc., by the Azov battalion? If they're coming from Russian and / or rebel sources then that makes such claims highly suspicious. If they're coming from Ukrainian sources then they are worth investigating.

Mariupol' residents were trapped in the city and only able to get out after Russian and rebel forces started clearing sections of the city. It's pretty obvious who is releasing their statements. Individually you are welcome to be as suspicious as you like, but there is a body of material on the subject that needs to be addressed. Their stories are similar, though not identical, suggesting certain patterns of behavior. Noteworthy are claims of Azov fighters firing heavy weapons into buildings sometimes at random, Azov fighters preventing residents from exiting by firing towards or near people trying to exit the city, and in one case a claim of them shooting up a bus that was trying to exit, Azov fighters killing civilians over petty disagreements, Azov fighters setting up fighting positions inside residential buildings with the residents still inside. Again, desperate defenders do desperate things. None of this sounds, on it's face, implausible. The consistence and volume of stories suggest that if the entire thing is one giant fake, it's certainly a very well thought out and well executed fake. And there is nothing, other than the inherent un-trustworthiness of Russian officialdom, to counter these claims. And to top it off, these claims aren't coming from Russian officialdom. They're coming from video taped statements of the residents from multiple sources. You're welcome to sift through the materials provided, I've linked to plenty of these stories in my update posts. If you have reason to suspect any of them of being untrue, or if there are OSINT publications disproving them, please feel free to share. To dismiss the claims without addressing their substance is, in my opinion, a mistake.

Rob c · May 1, 2022

My personal view is that the truth from any source is highly unlikely while the conflict is still in progress. There will be war crimes happening on both sides of the conflict as has happened in past wars. There were war crimes on the Allied side of WW2, the difference being that in the main they were individual acts and not state sponsored or unit tolerated acts.

While Russia has a history of manipulative stories to suit their agender in excess of what most other countries carry out, no country is immune from this practice in a time of war.

Until any evidence is tested in a recognized court of law it must be considered to be suspect, unless there is verifiable fact based confirmation available. I do not trust personal statements unless there is hard evidence to back their statements up as, people are easily manipulated., Films of people making statements I find particularly dodgy as you cannot know if the person is genuine or simply an acting stand in set up for the role.

Rob c · May 1, 2022

Further to my previous post, I find that any of the films put out by either side showing a person of the otherside making accusations against the own country less than convincing as I look at it like this. For example would I as a citizen of Mariupol make a Filmed accusation against Azov, The fact that this is filmed and released could lead to me being identified and after the war could lead to unpleasant repercussions if the Russian version of the culture of Azov is correct. I have the same view of the Ukraine showing Russian pow's speaking out against there army as it would be unlikely they could return to Russia while Putin was still in power.

These so called accusations on camera must be viewed as propaganda and nothing more, unless they can be verified by an independent and reliable source. The volume of such accusations is not any indication of their veracity.

Feanor · May 1, 2022

Update.

Kiev Area.

We have reports of new strikes in and around Kiev, some against the Artem munitions plant.

Readovka

❗️Сообщается о двух мощных взрывах в Киеве Очевидцы сообщают, что в Киеве, как минимум, два мощных взрыва — над городом развевается густой дым.

t.me

СМОТРИ

По сообщениям местных жителей, три ракетных удара были нанесены по оборонному заводу "Артем" в Киеве ▶️ @smotri_media

t.me

GREY ZONE

Пролёт русской крылатой ракеты «Калибр» над Киевской областью

t.me

City of Fastov, Kiev region, double-tap.

Неофициальный Безсонов

Очень удачный и редкий кадр. Был нанесён ракетный удар по военному объекту в г.Фастов, Киевской области, после чего произошло возгорание и в этот момент туда же прилетела другая ракета.

t.me

Georgian fighters near the recent impact site in Kiev.

Telegram: Contact @novostldnr

t.me

Kherson-Nikolaev-Odessa.

Russian air defenses firing, Kherson region.

WarJournal [Z]

❗️В Херсоне по воздушной цели сработали средства ПВО ВС России. @warjournaltg

t.me

Russian security forces in Kherson arrest a local territorial defense commander.

Денацификация UA

Денацификация в освобождённой Херсонской области: в одном из населенных пунктов российским спецназом задержан бывший командир батальона "территориальной обороны"

t.me

Genichensk and Novaya Kahovka have had their Lenin monuments put back up.

Colonelcassad

I'll be back! Вслед за Геническом, памятник Ленину восстановлен и в Новой Каховке.

t.me

Colonelcassad

Фактически, на освобожденных территориях проходит отмена антикоммунистических законов принятых бандеровским режимом, что ведет к восстановлению памятников и названий существовавших на 2014-й год.

t.me

Zaporozhye-Dnepropetrovsk.

A bridge near Melitopol', in Russian occupied area, was destroyed. Presumably by either an infiltrator team or a resistance group.

Colonelcassad

В Акимовке под Мелитополем подорвали железнодорожный мост.

t.me

The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

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