The Arjun Tank

[A.Mookerjee]

Yes, beautiful words. The only problem - the reality is more harsh. India just dont have enouth money to hire "best engineers and personnel" for all these numerous projects in development. India could probably find money for 1 or 2 projects - be it Arjun or LCA alone. But developing full range of products (aircrafts, tanks, space, naval, SAM's, etc...) AND hiring best personnel for such developments - is impossible.India is NOT USA.

India has the serious will to gain self reliance in the field of defense. India should think about building first class defense machinery, instead of buying it. I do not mean 'License Production', but developing the know how. In the long run, it will be more cost effective, than license production, as the new technology, has to be imported in license production each time there is an upgrade in equipment. The small matter is of recruiting the right personnel. Ferdinand Porsche thought it his while to build the Volkswagen Beetle, which was being produced until very recently. There are enough examples. How did Albert Speer achieve his achievements, of the most advanced tanks, planes, and not to mention submarines, when Germany was in the direst straits? Then, there were planes, aplenty, but not enough fuel.

 

[funtz]

Finding the money to do this is in a way directly related to the need to do it.
The solutions should be sought in the development of private organizations and a competitive market, instead of the government owned and run structure that has no competition, that is just a invitation to delayed research & derailed objectives.
Certainly in terms of most military equipment the need is there, and with the recent steps towards encouraging the private industry, solutions will be found in time. However this will take much patience, even more so when the military is not willing to accept domestic equipment as it looks unimpressive in front of the glossy foreign specs.

"best engineers and personnel" could be hired i guess, and i guess in the form of consultants they are hired to a certain degree. It is the full spectrum capability, that has to be developed from ground up, that Tejas project had to develop a lot of facilities for itself.

 

[Chrom]

India has the serious will to gain self reliance in the field of defense. India should think about building first class defense machinery, instead of buying it. I do not mean 'License Production', but developing the know how. In the long run, it will be more cost effective, than license production, as the new technology, has to be imported in license production each time there is an upgrade in equipment. The small matter is of recruiting the right personnel. Ferdinand Porsche thought it his while to build the Volkswagen Beetle, which was being produced until very recently. There are enough examples. How did Albert Speer achieve his achievements, of the most advanced tanks, planes, and not to mention submarines, when Germany was in the direst straits? Then, there were planes, aplenty, but not enough fuel.

All these examples are not relevant since they either lack the scale or do not suggest free concurency on employment market like now in India. As i said, there is just not enouth money for all projects. Some of these underfunded projects still by some wonder get to fruition - like Arjun - but most do not. The only way to hire high quality personell on all projects - is to scrap 2/3 of them right away and relocate funds to the rest.

 

[A.Mookerjee]

Finding the money to do this is in a way directly related to the need to do it.
The solutions should be sought in the development of private organizations and a competitive market, instead of the government owned and run structure that has no competition, that is just a invitation to delayed research & derailed objectives.
Certainly in terms of most military equipment the need is there, and with the recent steps towards encouraging the private industry, solutions will be found in time. However this will take much patience, even more so when the military is not willing to accept domestic equipment as it looks unimpressive in front of the glossy foreign specs.

"best engineers and personnel" could be hired i guess, and i guess in the form of consultants they are hired to a certain degree. It is the full spectrum capability, that has to be developed from ground up, that Tejas project had to develop a lot of facilities for itself.

I hope I am not misunderstood, but Defense Scientists are a valuable asset, and should be paid on par with non government industrial institutions. They should not be treated like normal civil servants. Civil Servants hold administrative jobs, while scientists hold productive, and inventive jobs. There is no risk in them loosing jobs, because they are good scientists. But if they are inspired to be more competitive, then the self accountability is facilitated to a higher degree. Then the officials will be accountable to the self as to why the scientists are being paid in such good measure. If small changes are made in one part, the whole system may be affected. The scientists, who are very capable, must be on par with other leading nations in the field of defense manufacture. They must work, shoulder to shoulder with the various luminaries in their field. If one can at some time feel satisfied, with ones effort, due to some goal being neared, it would be moral boosting for the person.

 

[funtz]

Yes that is true, pay peanuts and you wont get much in return.
The navy had presented some sort of a request/model for the domestic industry, and currently a lot of private industrial players are investing in this field, the need (in numbers) is already there, the capability is being developed, with some help it will be here in due time. As long as the need and the will to invest is available.
The Army will prefer to have a single MBT to meet its needs (it will be easier for them), and that choice has been made, however for the sake of the development of this capability they should be made to take one for the team and stick to the domestic MBT project. After all a domestic requirement for 3000-5000 tanks is by no measure small, enough to fuel a industry.

 

[luccloud]

Yes that is true, pay peanuts and you wont get much in return.
The Army will prefer to have a single MBT to meet its needs (it will be easier for them), and that choice has been made, however for the sake of the development of this capability they should be made to take one for the team and stick to the domestic MBT project. After all a domestic requirement for 3000-5000 tanks is by no measure small, enough to fuel a industry.

When you are asking the army to take one for the team, you are actually asking the army to comprise their fighting ability. Of course they won't agree.

 

[funtz]

well the initial order is already there, lets see how many they go for, eventually, the fighting ability will be complicated logistically, however in the subcontinental context, this tank is as good as anything.

 

[kay_man]

When you are asking the army to take one for the team, you are actually asking the army to comprise their fighting ability. Of course they won't agree.

tht would be true if the army were told to accept somthing mediocre instead of somthing good, but thts not the case here is it?
i guess we all agree by now tht the arjun mk1 is many times better than the t-90 in every possible aspect.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

tht would be true if the army were told to accept somthing mediocre instead of somthing good, but thts not the case here is it?
i guess we all agree by now tht the arjun mk1 is many times better than the t-90 in every possible aspect.

If that is really the case then I wonder why are they being deployed on Northern India where there are least chances of any battle.

 

[funtz]

Could you share the source of that information, Arjuns going into "norhern India", actually the whole of Punjab is a parth of north india
These are the states covered in that area:
Chandigarh
Delhi (NCT)
Haryana
Himachal Pradesh
Jammu & Kashmir
Punjab
Uttar Pradesh

Now untill you help out with where here, its hard to comment on the battle ready status of the Tanks.

As you like to say "as of today" how many arjuns are in active Army duty to even count as a factor?

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Could you share the source of that information, Arjuns going into "norhern India", actually the whole of Punjab is a parth of north india
These are the states covered in that area:
Chandigarh
Delhi (NCT)
Haryana
Himachal Pradesh
Jammu & Kashmir
Punjab
Uttar Pradesh

Now untill you help out with where here, its hard to comment on the battle ready status of the Tanks.

As you like to say "as of today" how many arjuns are in active Army duty to even count as a factor?

I dont know how many but I do know that they are not being deployed nowhere near the Pakistani border.

 

[funtz]

That was the question eh, where in North India, answering questions with questions are you.

Well considering the immense logistical difficulty of using
:a tank that is being tested by the Army and will serve in limited numbers "as of now", placing them right up the forward positions will be a exercise in futility.

That was the point of the posts you are responding to, "field them in good numbers" so that the logistic part is managed.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

That was the question eh, where in North India, answering questions with questions are you.

Well considering the immense logistical difficulty of using
:a tank that is being tested by the Army and will serve in limited numbers "as of now", placing them right up the forward positions will be a exercise in futility.

That was the point of the posts you are responding to, "field them in good numbers" so that the logistic part is managed.

As of today, they are no where near the Pakistani border.

Their role in any conflict is highly questionable as most of the Indo Subcontinent bridges are not capable of handling tanks beyond 50 tons nor are wide enough.

Personally, I liked the Tank X better. More potential and promising.

 

[funtz]

You have been requested by mua for the exact position of the Arjun MBTs in service with the armored regiment, north India could include Punjab, or depending on the source Rajisthan, which is as close to the border as you can get.

And spare me the details of structural analysis of the bridges, all that have been constructed in the last 40 years can take on a lot more than 50 tons and the width is a factor with the bridges in mountainous terrain. There is a whole volume of Indian Standard codes that deal with the issue of maximum load.

It is more a factor of where are you putting the bridges than the bridges themselves.

And the tank playing a role in any conflict has got to do more with the numbers.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

You have been requested by mua for the exact position of the tank, north India could include Punjab, or depending on the source rajisthan, which is as close to the border as you can get.

And spare me the details of structural analysis of the briges, all that have been constructred in the last 40 years can take on a lot more than 50 tons and the width is a factor with the bridges in mountainous terrain. There is a whole volume of Indian Standard codes that deal with the issue of maximum load.
It is more a factor of where are you putting the bridges than the bridges themselves.

Right now they are with 43rd regiment. It is no where near Pakistani border.

I am not going to talk further on Arjun. It will be a waste of my time and breathe talking on something I consider an ambitious program gone soar drastically.

I find it strange that you being an old member didnt read on Arjun tank when on this very forum are more informative threads such as the following:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649

Feel free to enlighten yourself.

 

[funtz]

Hardly an old member, forget the number of posts they mean nothing when you consider that 80 % of them are questions.

where is the 43rd regiment - and where are the Arjuns located, kindly answer that if you know.

You have been one of the most ignorant chaps i have seen on this forum, if you do not wish to talk or discuss something remember this no one invited you to comment on this thread and on the Arjun MBT, it was a decision of your own.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Hardly an old member, forget the number of posts they mean nothing when you consider that 80 % of them are questions.

where is the 43rd regiment - and where are the Arjuns located, kindly answer that if you know.

Why dont you tell me where are they deployed if they are deployed at the first place, that is.

 

[funtz]

For some one who claims that they are no where near Pakistan border you sure seem to have no clue.

AFAUK Uttar Pradesh is in north india and far away from the Western Border, Or for that matter my old home in Chamoli district is not even close to it, and i do not see any tanks in my home town, its in North India.

Dear god man, answering a question with a question is a killer, is it not.

If you do not know the location or the current operational status of the Regiment, why are you commenting on it?

If you do know the location, why not share it with a fellow poster?

 

[kay_man]

I dont know how many but I do know that they are not being deployed nowhere near the Pakistani border.

dude , when u say tanks deployed in northern india....
and when u say nowhere near pak border

]ur contradicting ur statement dont u think ?

do u even know where the indo -pak borders are?

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Okay.

I was under the impression (wrong) that since a few were inducted, they were deployed as well. I also know this site that monitors every single piece of Indian equipment at the Indo-Pak border and there was no mention of Arjun.

After reading you guy's posts, I tried to search whereever I possibly could to find where they are deployed. I guess it is safer to assume that no Arjun tank is deployed as of today.

If it is deployed then do enlighten me. I'll appreciate.