That my friend is anybodies guess on just how much engine power is actually being starved while a AC unit is in operation, I wonder if even the tank manufactures really even know.
The Arjun Tank
- Thread starter Jade
- Start date
Yep - especially when it takes 5 gallons just to get the power pac to engine idle on a M1 series, power loss due to running a AC unit is the furthest thing that we are thinking of.
i dont think that is necessary...he arjun team had consulted german engineers while designing...in fact the arjun is very much like the leo2. but it surpasses the leo in the suspension system armament ( lahat firing capability),and armour(cant bet on it)--but arjun has the option of being fitted with additional ERA armour tiles.
Lahat is also tested and integrated into the Leo II and if a customer wants this capability he can get it immediately.
One can add ERA to nearly every vehicle out there. It is just a question of adding the bolts which hold the ERA tiles.
And I seriously doubt that Arjun plays in the same league regarding it's armor like a Leopard IIA6EX.
Nevertheless I agree that the Leo II is not (and shouldn't be) an option for India.
One can add ERA to nearly every vehicle out there. It is just a question of adding the bolts which hold the ERA tiles.
And I seriously doubt that Arjun plays in the same league regarding it's armor like a Leopard IIA6EX.
Nevertheless I agree that the Leo II is not (and shouldn't be) an option for India.
Matter of fact Arjun looks like Leopard is because India was planning to induct the German Leopards,when PA was testing M1's during the Afghan war.
If only the US had donated few M1's to Pakistan to "fight Al Qaida"!
Does the Leo use Chobham type armour? I thought Germans did not follow the British design concepts.
Arjun follows Chobham type "sandwich" armour style.
Arjun has been tested to handle IA's threat perception(like protection from Chinese rounds),which ofcoure may not(or rather will not) be the same as Germans.
Well it actually comes from IA's worry about 750 and 1000hp T engines.Plus as one IA armour general commented "IA soldiers are not American soliders to have the luxury of a AC equipped tank".
It is a bit of attitude issue.Ofcourse afterwards they learned the hard way during the 2001 standoff.
I have no doubt that european designed vehicles must be modified to operate effectively in the middle east
That's bizzare, the Stryker was ordered after the first Gulf war, in the full knowledge that Saddam was still in power - where did they think they were going to fight? Its one of the main reasons why the whole Stryker system was purchased (Desert shield in the first couple of weeks consisted of airborne troops with no protection and bugger all anti armour) - easily deployable armoured protection so America could fly them to a crisis point - its long been know the entire middle east is exactly one of those points, so why were the vehicles delivered unable to fight there? Again you mention a fix for the problem. Why hasn't the T90's electronic overheating problem been fixed?
Yes the Merkava has A/c thats to ensure the electronics work properly in the heat - this isn't a problem, you've just told us here how the israeli's have solved that problem. So the Israeli's realised they had a problem, and engineered a solution. No problem. Why can't they solve the engine overheating problems in the Arjun?
I agree with everything you have said here, my question remains, if the Indian Army issued the specs for the vehicle 25 years ago, and they haven't been met this far along someone should be held responsible for this purchasing farce.
Its not a luxury if the combat effectiveness of your crews or their electronic gear is impaired. Brilliant answer by that general - field million dollar vehicles, crewed by crews that may have cost a million dollars to develop from basic training, through corps specific training, ongoing training on the vehicles and tactical employment of the vehicles, then save a few dollars in not providing airconditioning and have the vehicles out of the battle because the crew are suffering heat exhaustion or the targeting electronics have overheated and shut down.:smash
I was asking why the problem wasn't known about BEFORE the vehicles were operationally deployed in that area? Doesn't the IA go on exercises to reveal these possible problems before they get operationally deployed? Isn't that the whole reason why army's spend a stack of money going on exercise - to test people equipment and procedures?
It seems rather short sighted to buy weapon systems then stick them in a barracks trusting the supplier that the system will work then find when you actually do deploy them (you know, the bad guys theoretically are coming at you with the intent to kill) you find a host of problems. That's just insane.
Air conditioning loads would be bugger all on the engine - the difference in performance would hardly be measurable. I'd say the bigger issue was that it would require the tank to idle continuously adding to servicing requirements, fuel consumption and the thermal and accoustic signatures. To get around that an APU could be fitted to handle the A/c system and keep the electrics topped up - this would have a much smaller fuel consumption, thermal and accoustic signatures.
Who would of ever thought that we would do the foolish task of actually invading and occupying Iraq, seems like someone did not follow in his fathers footsteps
, anyways the U.S was just like everyone else after the cold war and started a drawdown with some vehicles being put on hold or cancelled all together. I believe that with the issues and concerns with reliability in-regards to Arjun may be blown way out of portion by the Indian press and nay sayers, only time will tell.Since we are on heat issues, the latest on T-90 electronics problem in desert envirnoment.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080521/nation.htm#4
IA now wants DRDO to do it,after Russians asked for a bag load of extra cash for integrating Indian round on T-90.
Issues like this makes the two decade of Indian efforts on Arjun worth every penny.
As mentioned above the reports points out IA's "concern" about AC's effect on powerpacks.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080521/nation.htm#4
If not for the Arjun development, IA would have to run back to the Russians to install a AC.
IA now wants DRDO to do it,after Russians asked for a bag load of extra cash for integrating Indian round on T-90.
Issues like this makes the two decade of Indian efforts on Arjun worth every penny.
As mentioned above the reports points out IA's "concern" about AC's effect on powerpacks.
Well it is not the case of IA not training the crew and the systems correctly. Despite any level of training, a full blow deployment would always bring up some very important issues.
And the stand off in 2001 was a year long full alter deployment.It actually started around Jan.March to May is a very hard summer time in India and the desert would be the last place you want to be in.
These issues came up during large scale execrise which were carried at the time of stand off.
Everything you will ever find out about the Leos main armor is that it is a "multi-material armor developed to counter KE and Chem weapons"...
It is not Chobham and it is not plain normal steel.
And I still think that an AC for the crew is not going to effect the available hp of a MBT in a serious way.
The Arjun is not underpowered with it's 1400hp and a plain normal AC for the crew (maybe with additional cooling vests) shouldn't be a problem.
It is not Chobham and it is not plain normal steel.
And I still think that an AC for the crew is not going to effect the available hp of a MBT in a serious way.
The Arjun is not underpowered with it's 1400hp and a plain normal AC for the crew (maybe with additional cooling vests) shouldn't be a problem.
Waylander - are you trying to state that the Leo2 series uses Laminated armor of unknown substance.:unknownEverything you will ever find out about the Leos main armor is that it is a "multi-material armor developed to counter KE and Chem weapons"...
It is not Chobham and it is not plain normal steel.
And I still think that an AC for the crew is not going to effect the available hp of a MBT in a serious way.
The Arjun is not underpowered with it's 1400hp and a plain normal AC for the crew (maybe with additional cooling vests) shouldn't be a problem.
In Indian conditions, the soldiers will sit hours inside the tanks under coolers. It's fuel devastation .
"Chobham" is very confusing name. Very oft any composite western armor is called "Chobham" although it have little to do with original "Chobham", which btw. is nothing very special either.Waylander - are you trying to state that the Leo2 series uses Laminated armor of unknown substance.:unknown
New Delhi, May 5: The government has listed five "defects" noticed in the Arjun tanks during user trials conducted by the Army. These are "failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers, and chipping of gun barrels".
Thirty-four years after its launch, the Arjun Main Battle Tank project of the Defence Research and Development Organisation has proved to be a failure with the Army telling a parliamentary committee last month that "the tanks have performed very poorly" in trials conducted last winter.
In the standing committee on defence report submitted to Parliament last month, the Army had told the committee, "We (Army) have just carried out the trial in winter. The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far ... There has been a problem. The defence minister has been apprised by the (Army) chief ... So, a lot of improvements have to be done before the Army will be satisfied on the Arjun tank."
The parliamentary standing committee on defence then observed, "The committee however (is) startled to hear now from a representative of the Army that the Arjun tanks have performed very poorly."
Thirty-four years after its launch, the Arjun Main Battle Tank project of the Defence Research and Development Organisation has proved to be a failure with the Army telling a parliamentary committee last month that "the tanks have performed very poorly" in trials conducted last winter.
In the standing committee on defence report submitted to Parliament last month, the Army had told the committee, "We (Army) have just carried out the trial in winter. The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far ... There has been a problem. The defence minister has been apprised by the (Army) chief ... So, a lot of improvements have to be done before the Army will be satisfied on the Arjun tank."
The parliamentary standing committee on defence then observed, "The committee however (is) startled to hear now from a representative of the Army that the Arjun tanks have performed very poorly."