The Arjun Tank

[Marc 1]

Dear Marc can you please explain how you came to a figure of 25 year.

Mate, I'm making a bit of a joke with that comment. Back in post 362 there is an article that states the first dozen tanks were fielded in 2002 (5 plus years ago) after a two decaded development - that kind of points to a gestation period for the Mk 1 of 25 years. Ergo the Mk 2 will take another 25!

Australia (my country) is pretty poor at times too when it comes to the introduction of new gear, but I have to admit not even our subs took this long! I take it there was some political interference in the development process?

 

[n21]

No, there is another question. No one blame Arjun more or less when specifically Indian component fail. But they blame Arjun if ANYTHING fails - regardless of country of origin. Because it is job of Arjun's developers - to find suitable foreign supplier, to integrate the supplied product right, to control the quality.

MTU Very WELL know the engine MIGHT not work above 60C. And i'm 100% sure it is written somewhere in supplied manual. But i have strong suspect what Arjun developers didnt managed to ensure that 60C limit for MTU engine.

Because technic is a bit more complex than it is written in 2-page brochures. There are many "if's" , "but's" , complex interdependent limitations, etc - and it is job of Arjun system integrators (sometimes together with component manufactures) to provide flawless integration and working condition for separate Arjun components.

This is also reason why it is not so simply to just bastle best foreign components in one basket and become 1A working product.

May be they could test MTU before buying it? And even if not - who cares? It is still fail of Arjun as project - together with MTU, admittedly. Of course IF, and only IF the failure of MTU is caused by original MTU bug, and not wrong integration.

From Indian Army point of view it is not so important WHY Arjun dont work.

First and foremost India did not have the luxury of choosing any foriegn system at will when it started of the project.Despite that the India managed to get hold of systems which were atleast "known" to best sellers.Despite that it is very well known that most of the so called top notch foriegn systems does not work in Indian conditions.Add to that India has to bear the demands of these nation.Arjun uses a heavier engine compare to 1500hp compact engine which the Germans refuse to sell. Worse they double the price of the engine supplied to prevent the production line from closing off.
There was not better alternate to MTU.Most of the other engines are either derivates or a worse option.
It is not easy as you say to choose a "perfect product".

There is not doubt that DRDO is responsible for the final product.My arguements are against your conclusion that DRDO does not deliver anything.
German systems have been consistently failing in desert testing despite decade long modifications.T-90's need to have an AC to prevent it's electronics from getting fired up.On the other hand Indian systems and electronics work perfectly.Arjun's electronics work without the need of an AC in the same desert conditions where T-90 operates.
A "useless" DRDO is able to rectify these system,while the so called "cudding edge" tech builders are having trouble doing it.
If DRDO is doing something wrong with the engine,it would not taken decades for the Germans to make them understand.

Yet you say DRDO delivers nothing!

DRDO has done what was expected of it.It completed development trials in 2004,delayed no doubt about it.Due to IA's obsession of perfect product if it is local and "import everything instead of develop locally",which you have suggested,the production units are not able to produce systems which were developed in India itself.After years of struggle they have managed to stabilise the production.
The news you keep reading about "trail failures" are not of development.These are testing of production units.Despite the pathetic state of Indian production units,the major faults within the tanks while testing has always been foreign systems! IA is currently carrying out logistics trials not some winter or summer development testing.
The defence reporters in India just keep recycling the old news to make up a story.Notice that every report always say IA has recieved 14 tanks!

Well, it is bit close to 220-250 mils as i know. As i said, excellent RESEARCH outcome for the money. Just dont sell this tank to Indian army please.

DRDO is a public agency,hence has to report the parliament. They cant have hidden funding. It is government's own addmission that the budget so far has been around 3500-3900 million rupees(i.e around 90 million dollars).

 

[Marc 1]

n21, I'm assuming you are from India, your patriotism is commendable. But at the end of the day solutions can be found to any problem if the political will and money is made available. If you have a problem with suppliers then change suppliers or make it yourself. You have some fine technical minds in India, you have a home grown nuclear program, Tata and other companies build diesel engines and could be classified as heavy industry. This is not beyond India - Botswana I'd believe incapable, but not your country. You say there were no alternatives to the MTU powerplant yet you seem to be ignoring the elephant standing in the middle of the room - the T90. The T90 seems to have electrical issues, BUT the T90's engine seems fine. Why not use the T90 engine/transmission?

Suppliers may not have helped, but if India wants its own tank it can't blame anyone else if it isn't delivered. It's all a matter of will.

 

[eckherl]

First and foremost India did not have the luxury of choosing any foriegn system at will when it started of the project.Despite that the India managed to get hold of systems which were atleast "known" to best sellers.Despite that it is very well known that most of the so called top notch foriegn systems does not work in Indian conditions.Add to that India has to bear the demands of these nation.Arjun uses a heavier engine compare to 1500hp compact engine which the Germans refuse to sell. Worse they double the price of the engine supplied to prevent the production line from closing off.
There was not better alternate to MTU.Most of the other engines are either derivates or a worse option.
It is not easy as you say to choose a "perfect product".

There is not doubt that DRDO is responsible for the final product.My arguements are against your conclusion that DRDO does not deliver anything.
German systems have been consistently failing in desert testing despite decade long modifications.T-90's need to have an AC to prevent it's electronics from getting fired up.On the other hand Indian systems and electronics work perfectly.Arjun's electronics work without the need of an AC in the same desert conditions where T-90 operates.
A "useless" DRDO is able to rectify these system,while the so called "cudding edge" tech builders are having trouble doing it.
If DRDO is doing something wrong with the engine,it would not taken decades for the Germans to make them understand.

Yet you say DRDO delivers nothing!

DRDO has done what was expected of it.It completed development trials in 2004,delayed no doubt about it.Due to IA's obsession of perfect product if it is local and "import everything instead of develop locally",which you have suggested,the production units are not able to produce systems which were developed in India itself.After years of struggle they have managed to stabilise the production.
The news you keep reading about "trail failures" are not of development.These are testing of production units.Despite the pathetic state of Indian production units,the major faults within the tanks while testing has always been foreign systems! IA is currently carrying out logistics trials not some winter or summer development testing.
The defence reporters in India just keep recycling the old news to make up a story.Notice that every report always say IA has recieved 14 tanks!


DRDO is a public agency,hence has to report the parliament. They cant have hidden funding. It is government's own addmission that the budget so far has been around 3500-3900 million rupees(i.e around 90 million dollars).

Simply well put, there is a reason why India is sticking it out with the Arjun project and it is more than just national pride, the T-90S was sold to India with some major head aches also forcing India to look else where instead of Russia to get these issues resolved. Also I would like to add that the majority of the people who are weighing in on this thread do not realize the challenges of operating tanks in hot desert conditions, there is no perfect tank, even the Merkava and M1 series has gone thru challenges. Sand wears out automotive components, heat is the worse enemy when it comes to electronics.

 

[Feanor]

Regarding the secretiveness Russia often displays when it comes to their new gadgets it seems very improbable to me that they would allow India (or any other nation) to get their hands on it.

India got partner status on a 5th gen. aviation project. It wouldn't seem too far fetched, given the history of Russian tanks in India, to suggest that a similar agreement be reached in regards to armored vehicles.

Simply well put, there is a reason why India is sticking it out with the Arjun project and it is more than just national pride, the T-90S was sold to India with some major head aches also forcing India to look else where instead of Russia to get these issues resolved. Also I would like to add that the majority of the people who are weighing in on this thread do not realize the challenges of operating tanks in hot desert conditions, there is no perfect tank, even the Merkava and M1 series has gone thru challenges. Sand wears out automotive components, heat is the worse enemy when it comes to electronics.

Of course, but the point we're trying to make to him is that ultimately the DRDO is responsible for the fact that the tank does not perform to standards. Regardless of what challenges they faced, if the tank doesn't meet the requirements, then they failed to deliver.

 

[niteshkjain]

Hey this is a new twist
seems arjun will finally get some respite

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/240991.php/Antony-asks-Army-to-objectively-evaluate-Arjun-tank

New Delhi, May 17: Defence minister A.K. Antony has reportedly asked the Army to study objectively the reports of the trials of the Arjun tanks during the recent exercises and has ruled out abandonment of the project, sources have said.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) authorities had met Antony and informed him that small glitches that cropped up in the tank's winter trials were being blown out of proportion, they added.

The DRDO said that problems encountered during the winter trials have been overcome and Arjun tanks were doing well in the trials being conducted in deserts at present.

"Tank's firing was on target and very reliable and accurate. Not a single barrel of the main gun of the Arjun tank had burst while the T-90s had seen five-barrel bursts and many more in the T-72s," sources quoted DRDO authorities, as saying. Both are in service with the Indian Army.

The Defence Minister was informed that the small problem in the German company Renk's gearbox had been sorted out with the introduction of appropriate software. The same company supplies gearboxes to leading tank manufacturers across the globe.

The presentation made by the Army before the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence has been contested, according to reports.

The parliamentary committee submitted its report last month and it had quoted the Army authorities as saying the Arjun tank was way below its expectations.

Sources said the DRDO officials did a point-to-point comparison of the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank before the Defence Minister and other senior functionaries in the Ministry of Defence. (Now this is interesting)

On the issue of the Arjun tank being heavy, the DRDO officials said that it was accepted from the beginning that both light and heavy tanks were needed for battles on varied terrains.

"The weight of the Arjun is not a constraint, it rather runs faster and crosses the marshy terrain, small rivers and other obstacles. The weight is not the issue.

All major tanks of the US, Israel, Germany, the UK and France weigh about 60 tonnes each like the Arjun, an officer of the DRDO told the ANI.

 

[n21]

Simply well put, there is a reason why India is sticking it out with the Arjun project and it is more than just national pride, the T-90S was sold to India with some major head aches also forcing India to look else where instead of Russia to get these issues resolved. Also I would like to add that the majority of the people who are weighing in on this thread do not realize the challenges of operating tanks in hot desert conditions, there is no perfect tank, even the Merkava and M1 series has gone thru challenges. Sand wears out automotive components, heat is the worse enemy when it comes to electronics.

IA has learnt the hard way when it comes to operating in desert.During 2001 stand off with Pakistan,the desert heat was so extreme that there were cases of tank crews passing out during deployment.

One of the prime reason DRDO gets involved in so many projects to develop the tech base,thereby preventing countries from selling junk to India.Unless you prove you have some exprience is these systems,all the time you get is downgraded stuff at exhobirant price.

Arjun development is as you said more than just national pride.It is required for India to get out of the "screw-driver technology", as TOT is called locally.

 

[n21]

India got partner status on a 5th gen. aviation project. It wouldn't seem too far fetched, given the history of Russian tanks in India, to suggest that a similar agreement be reached in regards to armored vehicles.



Of course, but the point we're trying to make to him is that ultimately the DRDO is responsible for the fact that the tank does not perform to standards. Regardless of what challenges they faced, if the tank doesn't meet the requirements, then they failed to deliver.

Would you be surprised to know that Arjun's requirements were borrowed from Jane's Armour Magazine! DRDO clasifies IA's requirements as BBC-Best of Brochure Claims!

 

[Marc 1]

Would you be surprised to know that Arjun's requirements were borrowed from Jane's Armour Magazine! DRDO clasifies IA's requirements as BBC-Best of Brochure Claims!

Why? Indian Army surely knows where and how to employ tanks - why not have them write the requirements for the manufacture to allow the employment of these essential assets where and when they need them.

n21 why was it discovered on operational deployment that crews were passing out? This occurred on Indian soil presumably, so why weren't the vehicles and crews tested in this enviroment before the deployment? Has there been remedial action taken on this issue since? (retrofit of airconditioning systems/fans/shade devices?)

Eckherl, from reading your posts I'm guessing you have a fairly long history in armoured vehicles, so I understand what you are saying about heat. BUT heat is a known characteristic in the operating environment of the Indian Army tanks, a characteristic that whilst it does present challenges is something that must be allowed for in the design of the vehicle. If it's not then you modify 'till the end product meets your requirements. This should not take 25 years.

Automotive vehicle manufacturers for example (particularly european ones) used to have problems with vehicles overheating in Australia's outback environment (and no doubt the middle east too). The manufacturers simply redesigned their vehicles with larger cooling systems, larger fans, higher flow rate coolant pumps, fitted transmission and oil coolers and now have a reliable product in just about any environment on the planet. We have 3 to 4 trailer roadtrains that operate at gross weights of well over 100 tonnes (some up to 200 tonnes) on outback tracks and highways. Standard european and american engines are used to power these monsters (Mack, Cummins Volvo) fitted with enlarged cooling systems to cope. It can be done.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

India got partner status on a 5th gen. aviation project. It wouldn't seem too far fetched, given the history of Russian tanks in India, to suggest that a similar agreement be reached in regards to armored vehicles.

This is not the topic to discuss 5th generation aviation project but I suggest you enlighten yourself with the " actual " contribution of Indians other then the money towards the plane for the so called Partner Status. The same Status Offer which was actually rejected by the Chinese.

As far as Arjun Tank is concerned. Ummm, It is the Indian Army that will be sitting in them and doing the fighting and not the DODO. If they are refusing to accept it then I leave you to conclude for yourself how secure they feel going to a potential conflict sitting in Arjun tank.

Also, I cant help but smirk at the thought that at one hand, Arjun tank is being comapred in the class of Abrams, Markevas and Leopards who have huge advantages over T-90 and on the other hand, it is actually fighting to win the comparion data Vs T-90 just to get inducted.

 

[eckherl]

Hey this is a new twist
seems arjun will finally get some respite

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/240991.php/Antony-asks-Army-to-objectively-evaluate-Arjun-tank

New Delhi, May 17: Defence minister A.K. Antony has reportedly asked the Army to study objectively the reports of the trials of the Arjun tanks during the recent exercises and has ruled out abandonment of the project, sources have said.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) authorities had met Antony and informed him that small glitches that cropped up in the tank's winter trials were being blown out of proportion, they added.

The DRDO said that problems encountered during the winter trials have been overcome and Arjun tanks were doing well in the trials being conducted in deserts at present.

"Tank's firing was on target and very reliable and accurate. Not a single barrel of the main gun of the Arjun tank had burst while the T-90s had seen five-barrel bursts and many more in the T-72s," sources quoted DRDO authorities, as saying. Both are in service with the Indian Army.

The Defence Minister was informed that the small problem in the German company Renk's gearbox had been sorted out with the introduction of appropriate software. The same company supplies gearboxes to leading tank manufacturers across the globe.

The presentation made by the Army before the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence has been contested, according to reports.

The parliamentary committee submitted its report last month and it had quoted the Army authorities as saying the Arjun tank was way below its expectations.

Sources said the DRDO officials did a point-to-point comparison of the Arjun tank with the T-90 tank before the Defence Minister and other senior functionaries in the Ministry of Defence. (Now this is interesting)

On the issue of the Arjun tank being heavy, the DRDO officials said that it was accepted from the beginning that both light and heavy tanks were needed for battles on varied terrains.

"The weight of the Arjun is not a constraint, it rather runs faster and crosses the marshy terrain, small rivers and other obstacles. The weight is not the issue.

All major tanks of the US, Israel, Germany, the UK and France weigh about 60 tonnes each like the Arjun, an officer of the DRDO told the ANI.

Very interesting in-regards to the barrel bursting issue`s, could be a issue of T-90`s two part ammunition, propellant charge can be very unpredictable during extreme hot ambient temperatures, this is one of the same issues faced with the Challenger 2`s propellant charge.

Inregards to Arjuns weight if it has a wide foot path then the ground pressure could be comparable to the T-90`s, thus not making it a issue when crossing terrian or bridges.

 

[eckherl]

This is not the topic to discuss 5th generation aviation project but I suggest you enlighten yourself with the " actual " contribution of Indians other then the money towards the plane for the so called Partner Status. The same Status Offer which was actually rejected by the Chinese.

As far as Arjun Tank is concerned. Ummm, It is the Indian Army that will be sitting in them and doing the fighting and not the DODO. If they are refusing to accept it then I leave you to conclude for yourself how secure they feel going to a potential conflict sitting in Arjun tank.

Also, I cant help but smirk at the thought that at one hand, Arjun tank is being comapred in the class of Abrams, Markevas and Leopards who have huge advantages over T-90 and on the other hand, it is actually fighting to win the comparion data Vs T-90 just to get inducted.

I think that the only thing mentioned was the weight class inregards to comparision to the tanks mentioned along with other tanks having a difficult time in the same type of hot environment, just look at Al Khalid, Pakistan ended up getting the Ukrainians involved because China couldn`t deliver a good enough engine pack along with a few other things. I do not think that it is the individual tank crews that are pissin and moaning about Arjun, it is most likely top brass who doesn`t want to add a additional tank to the logistical channel, especially when they are getting the T-90S into the system joined by other different T-72 models. As far as comparing Arjun to T-90S, Arjun must offer some promising benefits over the T-90S or else the trials would of been over a long time ago, India is not dumb and there is more to this story than we will likely ever know.

 

[eckherl]

Why? Indian Army surely knows where and how to employ tanks - why not have them write the requirements for the manufacture to allow the employment of these essential assets where and when they need them.

n21 why was it discovered on operational deployment that crews were passing out? This occurred on Indian soil presumably, so why weren't the vehicles and crews tested in this enviroment before the deployment? Has there been remedial action taken on this issue since? (retrofit of airconditioning systems/fans/shade devices?)

Eckherl, from reading your posts I'm guessing you have a fairly long history in armoured vehicles, so I understand what you are saying about heat. BUT heat is a known characteristic in the operating environment of the Indian Army tanks, a characteristic that whilst it does present challenges is something that must be allowed for in the design of the vehicle. If it's not then you modify 'till the end product meets your requirements. This should not take 25 years.

Automotive vehicle manufacturers for example (particularly european ones) used to have problems with vehicles overheating in Australia's outback environment (and no doubt the middle east too). The manufacturers simply redesigned their vehicles with larger cooling systems, larger fans, higher flow rate coolant pumps, fitted transmission and oil coolers and now have a reliable product in just about any environment on the planet. We have 3 to 4 trailer roadtrains that operate at gross weights of well over 100 tonnes (some up to 200 tonnes) on outback tracks and highways. Standard european and american engines are used to power these monsters (Mack, Cummins Volvo) fitted with enlarged cooling systems to cope. It can be done.

But the kicker is that most designers most recently started taking the high ambient temperature factor into the designing phase, almost every recent tank model that has been sold to middle eastern countries have had to be modified due to the amount of electronics that are being placed inside of tanks, just look at the Stryker MGS debacle, this vehicle is made by a reputable company but they did not even factor in that this vehicle would most likely have to fight in a extremely hot environment, because of this there have been some overheating issues forcing General Dynamics to get a air conditioning unit rushed in the vehicle design, look at the Merkava series tanks, pretty much they had no choice but to go to a AC unit on the last two models due to the amount of electronics, just a few examples.

 

[Chrom]

Very interesting in-regards to the barrel bursting issue`s, could be a issue of T-90`s two part ammunition, propellant charge can be very unpredictable during extreme hot ambient temperatures, this is one of the same issues faced with the Challenger 2`s propellant charge.

Inregards to Arjuns weight if it has a wide foot path then the ground pressure could be comparable to the T-90`s, thus not making it a issue when crossing terrian or bridges.

This is for a long time known and discussed matter. Indian firms made bad ammo and it is caused barrel bursting.

 

[Chrom]

I As far as comparing Arjun to T-90S, Arjun must offer some promising benefits over the T-90S or else the trials would of been over a long time ago, India is not dumb and there is more to this story than we will likely ever know.

Nope, it is completely other way around. T-90S "must offer some promising benefits over" Arjun - or else the trials would of been over a long time ago, India is not dumb and there is more to this story than we will likely ever know". Remember, it is Arjun tank which is pride of Indian DRDO, not T-90S. By all things equal, India will always choose Arjun.

 

[eckherl]

This is for a long time known and discussed matter. Indian firms made bad ammo and it is caused barrel bursting.

It may in fact not be just a Indian propellant issue, are you trying to state that Russian propellant charges do not have the same issues at extremely hot temperatures.

 

[Chrom]

It may in fact not be just a Indian propellant issue, are you trying to state that Russian propellant charges do not have the same issues at extremely hot temperatures.

Yes, i state it. India imported a lot of russian ammo, included ammo for t-90 - and it didnt have that problem. Do a search in the forum or in the web - as i said, it is long time ago widely discussed and settled matter.

P.S. an example http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1658209/posts

"The T-90s are also facing a host of other problems, including a nearly exhausted inventory of ammunition. The tank’s 125 mm smooth-bore gun is electronically configured to fire imported Russian AMK-338 and AMK-339 shells, the supply of which has run out after innumerable exercises.

Surprisingly, the T-90’s gun has not been configured to fire the Indian-made AMK-340 shells. These shells have turned out rather dubious in quality, with over 150,000 rounds having to be destroyed, leading to the loss of over Rs 700 crores. Some AMK-340 shells have even burst inside the tanks, killing crew members, in at least one instance at Babina. Armoured Corps officers said many tank crews, who feared the shells would explode inside the barrel, had refused to use the faulty ammunition, and when forced to do so went to elaborate lengths, enabling them to fire from outside the tank.

According to the Armoured Corps officers, the ordnance factory board had triple-packed the 125 mm AMK-340 shells with propellant, but without adequate packing in between the layers to prevent leakage at high temperatures in which they are stored, often under the open sun. This had led not only to a near-complete freeze on regular firings but also "severely dented" the confidence of tank crews, sources said.
"

 

[eckherl]

Nope, it is completely other way around. T-90S "must offer some promising benefits over" Arjun - or else the trials would of been over a long time ago, India is not dumb and there is more to this story than we will likely ever know". Remember, it is Arjun tank which is pride of Indian DRDO, not T-90S. By all things equal, India will always choose Arjun.

Of course T-90S offers a few good benefits, that being because of India`s logistical system is already set up for the T-72, also for the bang for the buck so to speak, it is fully capable of handling anything in that part of the world.

 

[eckherl]

Yes, i state it. India imported a lot of russian ammo, included ammo for t-90 - and it didnt have that problem. Do a search in the forum or in the web - as i said, it is long time ago widely discussed and settled matter.

P.S. an example http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1658209/posts

Chrom this is very old news, quality control standards have been raised and all these shells have been recalled, they could in fact have been firing Russian loads, and Russia does have issues with there propellant charges if they are not kept at a controlled temperature.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom this is very old news, quality control standards have been raised and all these shells have been recalled, they could in fact have been firing Russian loads, and Russia does have issues with there propellant charges if they are not kept at a controlled temperature.

Sure, if you let shells be stored for 1 or 2 years NOT in proper, cool storage - everything can happen. But what it have to do with quality of the tank or ammo? How this is different from any other tank or ammo in the world?