T-98 vs Arjun

[santpaul]

Indian army rejected it!!!! :eek
I thought they were inducting these tanks now

 

[doggychow14]

the t-98G looks like it has a different hull and turret. the turret looks sorta like a leopards.

global security says this about the arjun

MBT Arjun in its present form will require increased maintenance time and efforts-says the Army. The Army accordingly expressed grave concern on the reliability and maintainability of MBT and pointed out that while the world over the trend was to reduce the maintenance time, it had increased with MBT Arjun. According to DRDO, the views expressed by the Army are only a subjective opinion and the analysis of data shows an upward trend in mean time between failures (MTBF) over the years. DRDO have pointed out that trials carried out clearly brought out the efficiency/improvements effected in weapon system and in the automotive area ability to cover the required range in the stipulated time was also proved. They further contended that there is no overheating of the engine in desert conditions. Summer trials of 1997 indicated that the performance was below the acceptable standards.

 

[gf0012-aust]

the t-98G looks like it has a different hull and turret. the turret looks sorta like a leopards.

global security says this about the arjun

MBT Arjun in its present form will require increased maintenance time and efforts-says the Army. The Army accordingly expressed grave concern on the reliability and maintainability of MBT and pointed out that while the world over the trend was to reduce the maintenance time, it had increased with MBT Arjun. According to DRDO, the views expressed by the Army are only a subjective opinion and the analysis of data shows an upward trend in mean time between failures (MTBF) over the years. DRDO have pointed out that trials carried out clearly brought out the efficiency/improvements effected in weapon system and in the automotive area ability to cover the required range in the stipulated time was also proved. They further contended that there is no overheating of the engine in desert conditions. Summer trials of 1997 indicated that the performance was below the acceptable standards.

I think that some of these assessments, as accurate as they were at the time, probably need some revision.

Israel has been assisting India on improving the Arjun 2, and the fact that both China and India will be using Israeli developed main gun missiles points to some of their influence.

I don't think the Arjun 2 is dead as a project by any means.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

GF, isn't Type-99 using a local copy of Russian AT-11 Sniper missile. When did it start using an Israeli missile?

 

[gf0012-aust]

GF, isn't Type-99 using a local copy of Russian AT-11 Sniper missile. When did it start using an Israeli missile?

There have been reports that China is using a variation of the LAHAT.

I'll see if I can find the links, but to be honest I didn't pay much attention to it at the time.

 

[doggychow14]

is type 98G the tank Janes was talking about being the best tank when fielded?

 

[dabrownguy]

that is the tank china is workin on with a 152 mm gun. five years away. require lots of new research. they said the most powerful not the best. theres a difference. it'll be quite some time before leapord or abrahms are shown off.

 

[RealIndian]

MBT Arjun to be inducted in Army on Aug 7

Tuesday August 3, 2004

BANGALORE: Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee will hand over the first batch of five Arjuns, the main battle tank, produced at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, on August seven to the Indian Army.

Chief of Army Staff General N C Vij will receive the indigenously designed and developed main battle tanks from the Defence Minister, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) statement said here today.

The armoured fighting vehicle MBT Arjun was designed and developed by DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) at Avadi near Chennai and has high degree of mobility, superior firepower and excellent protection, it said.

The Heavy Vehicles Factory began producing the five Arjuns in 2000 after the Army placed an indent following successful user- cum-technical trials.

The MBT is equipped with an indigenously developed 120 mm gun, besides a specially developed "KANCHAN" armour resulting in high level of protection.

The tank has a home-grown hydro-gas suspension which offers rider comfort, eliminating fatigue on extended runs. "The special systems which include integrated fire detection and supression system, nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) system, and advanced communication system, provide added capabilities to the Arjun tank," DRDO said.

Agencies
:smokingc:


http://www.centralchronicle.com/20040803/0308012.htm

 

[XEROX]

Defence Minister to hand over MBT Arjun to Army on Aug 7, BANGALORE, Aug 2(PTI)

Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee will hand over the first batch of five Arjuns, the main battle tank, produced at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, on August seven to the Indian Army.

Chief of Army Staff General N C Vij will receive the indigenously designed and developed main battle tanks from the Defence Minister, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) statement said here today.

The armoured fighting vehicle MBT Arjun was designed and developed by DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) at Avadi near Chennai and has high degree of mobility, superior firepower and excellent protection, it said.

The Heavy Vehicles Factory began producing the five Arjuns in 2000 after the Army placed an indent following successful user-cum-technical trials.

The MBT is equipped with an indigenously developed 120 mm gun, besides a specially developed "KANCHAN" armour resulting in high level of protection.

The tank has a home-grown hydro-gas suspension which offers rider comfort, eliminating fatigue on extended runs. "The special systems which include integrated fire detection and supression system, nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) system, and advanced communication system, provide added capabilities to the Arjun tank," DRDO said.


http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=239132

 

[yutong chen]

Type 98's hull and T-72's hull is very different. Type 98's hull is longer and wider, and more reliable. The latest version of Type 98 is equiped with DUs, which penetrates 840mm of armor. Arjun is big as a Abram, but it certainly can't be compared with an Abram, by a mile. Type 98 is lighter than Arjun, but that proves nothing, since Nazi King Tiger was heavy but got it's [bleep] [bleep]ed up by T-34s. According to magazines, Type 98 uses state-of-the-art electronics, while Arjun probably uses hyprid of something stolen and then developed. 120mm guns can't be said superior, since its only against Iraq, and their 10 years old T-72. If you read more, almost half of Iraqi tank were destroyed by aircrafts. Heavy weight is the idea of 20th century. I'm pretty sure India would find themself defeated if they keep on developing tanks that couters T-72s, instead of T-80, or prehaps T-90, M1A2, Type 98, if they can.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Type 98's hull and T-72's hull is very different. Type 98's hull is longer and wider, and more reliable. The latest version of Type 98 is equiped with DUs, which penetrates 840mm of armor.

840mm of RHA is not a lot for a modern penetration system

Arjun is big as a Abram, but it certainly can't be compared with an Abram, by a mile.

Nobody I know considers any of the current nonUS tanks to be equivalent to the Abrams D - the main contenders are the Chally2, Leo2A4-A6, Leclerc. They clearly are at diff technology levels and different design philosophies that have been established through decades of involvement in armoured conflict. Persistency of evolution breeds better platforms.

120mm guns can't be said superior, since its only against Iraq, and their 10 years old T-72. If you read more, almost half of Iraqi tank were destroyed by aircrafts.

It's not the tank thats important - it's the capability of the main gun and the rounds. In the few limited contacts where RG's were committed and engaged MBT-MBT at sub 1200m, the tanks were absolutely whacked. CAS is airborne artillery - it should be used as such where poss, what it means is that someone actually understood engagement doctrine properly.

Heavy weight is the idea of 20th century.

No, flexibility of response, network integration and sympathetic contribution are the keys to MBT design. The weight is a legacy effect only. people continually make the mistake and usually associate it with an armour thickness/defensive capability.

I'm pretty sure India would find themself defeated if they keep on developing tanks that couters T-72s, instead of T-80, or prehaps T-90, M1A2, Type 98, if they can.

Thats a really dangerous assumption - especially when we know that the Israelis are now being involved in fixing some of the project issues. The Arjun is fundamentally a Leo inspiration - it's troubles have been due to project interference and a lack of coherent design. Too many people wanting it to be a land dreadnought rather than define its task to a narrower applicability profile. The Israelis will narrow that down considerably.

The Arjun 1 was a dud, I think it's incredibly brave for anyone to assume that the Arjun 2 is not a platform of potential - the basics are already in place.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Type 98's hull and T-72's hull is very different. Type 98's hull is longer and wider, and more reliable. The latest version of Type 98 is equiped with DUs, which penetrates 840mm of armor. Arjun is big as a Abram, but it certainly can't be compared with an Abram, by a mile. Type 98 is lighter than Arjun, but that proves nothing, since Nazi King Tiger was heavy but got it's [bleep] [bleep]ed up by T-34s. According to magazines, Type 98 uses state-of-the-art electronics, while Arjun probably uses hyprid of something stolen and then developed. 120mm guns can't be said superior, since its only against Iraq, and their 10 years old T-72. If you read more, almost half of Iraqi tank were destroyed by aircrafts. Heavy weight is the idea of 20th century. I'm pretty sure India would find themself defeated if they keep on developing tanks that couters T-72s, instead of T-80, or prehaps T-90, M1A2, Type 98, if they can.

Dude, where you got the data from?? As far as I'm concerned, Type 99's gun armour penetration info is classified. The Type 99's armour was originated from Russian T-80 which China bought about a dozen in the mid 1990's, how the chinese improved it I don't know.

At this point Type 99's electronic package is still unknown, do you think it's a bit early to call it state of the art?? And my friend, you underestimated Indian engineers in their fields. China's Type-90 wasn't very succesful too, wasn't it?? But they got it right on the Type-99. The point is nobody can succeed without bumping their head into some walls.

There are several reasons Abrams gain so much success in desert storm. First the american have air superiority, second the Iraqi's will to fight was poor, and third their T-72 was a downgraded version of the soviet one. Nevertheless, Abrams is one of few modern tanks that has seen real combat today, and its performance was exceptional.

 

[dabrownguy]

Dude the Chinese tanks still use ERA plates. Does this mean that they're armour is not trust enough? Probabily. On the other hand you have the Arjun which also has classified armour design probabily form the British. The armour on the Arjun also seems to be tougher than on a T-90. Kinda solid.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

brownguy, ERA offers very little protection from SABOT rounds from tank guns, but very effective against HEAT warheads on ATGM. The Type 99 armour did withstand a Red Arrow-8 missile(Chinese copy of Milan) during test, but Chinese designers feel it's still not safe from new generations of ATGM, so they applied the ERA and Add-on armour to the frontal area of the tank.

Pictures taken in the survivability test, the Red Arrow-9 missile used was the basic version, armour penetration of 700mm. Later version of Red Arrow increased its penetration to 1100mm.

 

[RealIndian]

120 Millimetre MBT Arjun Armament System


A state-of-the-art weapon and ammunition system has been developed by the DRDO for the Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun by adopting novel design concepts and latest technological advancement at par with the industrially advanced countries. The system is capable of destroying modern heavy targets up to a range of 5000 m. All aspects leading to ergonomics, product reliability, maintenance, ease of operation, and futuristic performance enhancement have been incorporated in the design of the system.

The following indigenous technologies have been developed and established during the course of the system development.

Electro slag refined (ESR) steel for gun barrels

Partial length autofrettaging of gun barrels

High pressure packing rings for recoil system

Tungsten alloy penetrators

Fin stabilised kinetic energy shot

Special alloy steel obturating cups for cartridge cases

Semi-combustible cartridge case and primer

Armament System

Gun System

The 120 mm rifled gun for MBT Arjun is made of special steel produced by the latest ESR/Vacuum Arc Remelting process. This has enhanced the performance and fatigue life of the gun barrel. The gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa. This is the first indigenously developed gun capable of firing at such a high service pressure achieving muzzle velocity of 1650 m/s and above. Efficient fume extractor of the gun ensures that no toxic fumes are left in the crew compartment. The gun is fitted with FRP Thermal Insulating Jacket to obviate differential thermal effect, thereby enhancing the accuracy of the weapon system.

Recoil System

The Arjun recoil system is a compact, lightweight, short recoil hydro-spring type, capable of absorbing the thrust of high pressure and high velocity gun. The system consists of two hydro-spring buffers mounted diagonally to meet the stringent space requirement inside the fighting compartment. The innovative design of taper control rod gives uniform recoil and run-out, thereby enhancing the accuracy and life of the system and the high rate of fire. The high pressure and durable packing rings coupled with high surface-finish of mating components ensure longer life and high reliability. This is a sealed system, which requires practically no maintenance.

Ammunition System

Two types of ammunition, namely, Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) and High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) have been fully developed and productionised for MBT Arjun.

The complete round of Arjun ammunition system consists of a semi-combustible cartridge case with steel obturating cup, semi-combustible primer, propellant, additive liner for wear reduction of gun and FSAPDS shot/HESH shell. The semi-combustible cartridge case (SCCC) ammunition has the advantage of reduction of round and chamber length, weight of the round, ease of handling, higher muzzle velocity, higher rate of fire, longer barrel life, and logistics.

Steel Obturating Cup

The SCCC technology is being used in the contemporary tanks. Steel cup is a major component of SCCC technology used for indigenous development of the ammunition for the Arjun tank, and has been designed, developed and productionised by the DRDO for the first time in the country. This component provides effective obturation during firing of the ammunition.



FSAPDS

FSAPDS is the primary antitank ammunition for Arjun. The complete FSAPDS round consists of semi-combustible cartridge case, semi-combustible primer with steel obturating cup, triple-base propellant, and wear-reducing additive liner. The sub-calibre kinetic energy projectile has a very high-density long rod tungsten alloy penetrator enclosed in a three-piece sabot segment and a tail unit for in-flight stability with tracer. The shot is machined to a very high degree of precision with best CNC machines and online inspection to achieve the high standard of accuracy. This hyper velocity ammunition can defeat all the modern targets at a range of 5000 m and above. The accuracy and consistency of the shot is of the order of 0.2 mil standard deviation.

HESH

High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) is the secondary ammunition for Arjun and is effective against a variety of soft targets, tanks, fortifications, etc. The complete HESH round consists of a semi-combustible cartridge case, primer with steel obturating cup, and a single-base propellant. The optimised explosive composition of HESH defeats rolled homogenous armour plate detaching a scab of about 9 kg mass moving with a velocity of 100 to 120 m/s. Besides the scabbing effect, blast and shock imparts a tremendous jolt to the enemy tank stripping off explosive reactive armour and incapacitating the crew severely, thereby affecting their fighting capabilities. The accuracy of the HESH is of the order of 0.25 mil standard deviation.



The gun/ammunition system has been fully optimised and integrated with the MBT Arjun, meeting the stringent GSQR for consistency, penetration, lethality and high rate of fire. The production in ordnance factories has been well established. Strict quality control measures in the production stage and the final inspection stage are being maintained by DGQA/SQAE to ensure highest standard of quality.

Ordnance &Ammunition Data

Ordnance

Calibre 120 mm rifled
Breech type Vertical sliding breechblock
Semiautomatic/hand operated
Firing mechanism Electrical
Ordnance length 6050 mm
Ordnance mass 2025 kg
Barrel life 500 EFC


Thermal Insulating Jacket (TIJ)

Material FRP
No. of units 2 (front and rear)
Type Split type, hinged

Recoil System

Type Hydro spring taper rod type
No. of cylinders 2
Normal recoil 350 mm
Recoil fluid Oil mineral hydraulic buffer
Mass of each buffer 90 kg

Ammunition

Scab mass 9 kg
Scab diameter 280 mm
Scab velocity 120 m/s

HESH/T 1A

Type of ammunition Fixed SCCC
Muzzle velocity 735 m/s
Round length 996 mm
Round mass 22 kg
Consistency 0.25 mil

FSAPDS/T 1A

Type of ammunition Fixed SCCC
Muzzle velocity 1650 m/s and above
Round length 940 mm
Round mass 20 kg
Consistency 0.20 mil

http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

 

[yutong chen]

Type 98 is already old news in PLA. They declassified some information in magazines. A modified version of Type 98, said to be similar in armor with Abrams is on test trail. If you are in china or somewhere outside United States, you get to read all the mils blocked by the United States. After you go inside a real MBT, then you know what you are talking about.

 

[RealIndian]

Type 98 is already old news in PLA. They declassified some information in magazines. A modified version of Type 98, said to be similar in armor with Abrams is on test trail. If you are in china or somewhere outside United States, you get to read all the mils blocked by the United States. After you go inside a real MBT, then you know what you are talking about.

Can you post some info from a govt source ?

 

[dabrownguy]

Is that the one with a sloped turret? BTW why would US block mail? We can know about Chinese tanks as much as Chinese can as long as its in English. BTW have you been inside the Type 98 varients?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Type 98 is already old news in PLA. They declassified some information in magazines. A modified version of Type 98, said to be similar in armor with Abrams is on test trail. If you are in china or somewhere outside United States, you get to read all the mils blocked by the United States. After you go inside a real MBT, then you know what you are talking about.

In a word. Bollocks. The US treats anything from China like a vaccum cleaner. It sucks it all in. Even when it's bogus information you can still get a pattern on who the author probably was - reports are like fingerprints - they all have a signature style. That information alone makes hoovering worthwhile.

BTW, some of us in here who have been inside MBT's.

 

[dabrownguy]

gf0012 so you met Isreal engineers working on the Arjun mk2 MBT? What did they have to say?