Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Spacearrow99]

Rosneft and Gazprom can't recieve western technology and loans, but their day operations are untouched. Fitch upgraded Russia's credit rating about 1.5 weeks ago. I'm not worried about Russia's economy. Putin could improve the economy by making reforms. For instance, Putin created strong property rights laws then chinese would pour money into Russia.

Baltic has large slipway that can be used to build carrier. Borisov said, Russia could start building a carrier in state arms procurement program, but it won't be delivered. Again, most nuclear procurment projects should be completed by the end of next decade. The second poseidon submarine 09582 will be launched by the end of this year. The Peter the Great went on anti privacy duty off the coast of Somalia in 2009. The 22160 will free up more valuable warships from that duty.

 

[ngatimozart]

Rosneft and Gazprom can't recieve western technology and loans, but their day operations are untouched. Fitch upgraded Russia's credit rating about 1.5 weeks ago. I'm not worried about Russia's economy. Putin could improve the economy by making reforms. For instance, Putin created strong property rights laws then chinese would pour money into Russia.

Baltic has large slipway that can be used to build carrier. Borisov said, Russia could start building a carrier in state arms procurement program, but it won't be delivered. Again, most nuclear procurment projects should be completed by the end of next decade. The second poseidon submarine 09582 will be launched by the end of this year. The Peter the Great went on anti privacy duty off the coast of Somalia in 2009. The 22160 will free up more valuable warships from that duty.

@Spacearrow99 KiwiRob works in the shipping industry and is based in Norway. His employment requires him to visit Russia and Russian yards, so in this case he knows what he is talking about. If he states that a yard isn't capable then it isn't because he's been to the yard and is familiar with it.

 

[Feanor]

Rosneft and Gazprom can't recieve western technology and loans, but their day operations are untouched. Fitch upgraded Russia's credit rating about 1.5 weeks ago. I'm not worried about Russia's economy. Putin could improve the economy by making reforms. For instance, Putin created strong property rights laws then chinese would pour money into Russia.

You should be. Western sanctions have taken a toll, and with the continued tensions between China and the US, Russia could end up in a very vulnerable position, and it's not exactly doing all that well now.

Baltic has large slipway that can be used to build carrier. Borisov said, Russia could start building a carrier in state arms procurement program, but it won't be delivered. Again, most nuclear procurment projects should be completed by the end of next decade. The second poseidon submarine 09582 will be launched by the end of this year.

There are yards in Russia that could build a new carrier. Hypothetically, if the stars align just right. Provided Russia pours giant funds into upgrading the yards, and attracting personnel to them. But even then the odds aren't great and the costs - spectacular. Making matters worse is that it's not clear where the personnel to build these vessels could come from. Unlike in aerospace, they can't simply be poached from Ukraine. Ukraine's own yards are in no shape. Far more likely is that a yard overpromises, the VMF commits, and politicians hold them to this commitment for prestige reasons, ending up with a 15-20 year long mess.

The Peter the Great went on anti privacy duty off the coast of Somalia in 2009. The 22160 will free up more valuable warships from that duty.

It didn't go on anti-piracy duty because it was the only vessel available, and the mission was that important. It went because it's a good show of force, and it was in the area. It remains to be seen how the 22160s get used, but there is no way that African piracy is such a major problem for Russia that it necessitates a whole new series of warships to be built. I mean... if the VMF was flush with cash, their corvette, frigate, and destroyer programs were on track, the minesweepers got a new USV up to par with leading international alternatives, there was a new torpedo in service, and the entire ASW AVMF fleet had been either upgraded or replaced... sure. But as things stand... they're a waste of resources.

 

[Spacearrow99]

You should be. Western sanctions have taken a toll, and with the continued tensions between China and the US, Russia could end up in a very vulnerable position, and it's not exactly doing all that well now.

Low oil prices have taken the biggest toll on the Russian economy. Trump is close to an election year. if he loses he's probably going to prison (if Mike Pence doesn't pardon him one way or another).

There are yards in Russia that could build a new carrier. Hypothetically, if the stars align just right. Provided Russia pours giant funds into upgrading the yards, and attracting personnel to them. But even then the odds aren't great and the costs - spectacular. Making matters worse is that it's not clear where the personnel to build these vessels could come from. Unlike in aerospace, they can't simply be poached from Ukraine. Ukraine's own yards are in no shape. Far more likely is that a yard overpromises, the VMF commits, and politicians hold them to this commitment for prestige reasons, ending up with a 15-20 year long mess.

Belokamenka, Murmansk Oblast

Kolskaya Verf (Novatek)

Russia is building several major shipyards around country for its oil and gas industry. They may be viable alternative to USC in the future. The two docks at Kolskaya Verf will be 400m long.

@Spacearrow99 You have been on here long enough to know the rules. Provide the sources for the photos please. This protects both you and the forum from accusations of plagiarism. Ngatimozart

 

[ngatimozart]

Trump is close to an election year. if he loses he's probably going to prison (if Mike Pence doesn't pardon him one way or another).

@Spacearrow99 You are straying into politics here and the above comment has nothing to do with the discussion in hand. Politics make the Modrators real twitchy so I would steer real clear if I were you.

Belokamenka, Murmansk Oblast

Kolskaya Verf (Novatek)

Russia is building several major ships and facilities for its oil and gas industries. They may be viable to USC in the future. The two docks at Kolskaya Verf will be 400m long.

Nice pretty photos but don't prove anything. A lot of supposition not based upon fact. In my mind you are attempting to make a case out of smoke and mirrors, and whilst obtaining reasonably reliable source material from Russia can be difficult, it is not insurmountable.

 

[Spacearrow99]

https://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/3/v/f_c3...MDYxNjA5NC8xNmUxZjkveHd6MElDWnRycXMuanBn.jpeg

Novatek working on two large lng projects on or near the Yamal Pennisula the shipyard will build the facilities for those projects. The Artic Lng II project is one of largest lng projects in the world. Russian press can uncover a great amount of things about its federal, provincial, and local governments.

The defense procurement programs have earned b- from me to date. The Russian military has come along way from 2008. The big programs like air defense procurement projects, su-27 family, and nuclear rearmament programs haven't failed. There have been late projects, but that should be expected. The Udaloy class modernisation will be slow.

@Spacearrow99 The sources for the other two images as well like you were asked too. Easiest way would've been just to have posted the link to the website instead of playing silly buggers. NG.

 

[KiwiRob]

Rosneft and Gazprom can't recieve western technology and loans, but their day operations are untouched. Fitch upgraded Russia's credit rating about 1.5 weeks ago. I'm not worried about Russia's economy. Putin could improve the economy by making reforms. For instance, Putin created strong property rights laws then chinese would pour money into Russia.

Baltic has large slipway that can be used to build carrier. Borisov said, Russia could start building a carrier in state arms procurement program, but it won't be delivered. Again, most nuclear procurment projects should be completed by the end of next decade. The second poseidon submarine 09582 will be launched by the end of this year. The Peter the Great went on anti privacy duty off the coast of Somalia in 2009. The 22160 will free up more valuable warships from that duty.

If they are buying western equipment especially from US manufacturers then they are going to run into problems. No European bank will accept payments from a Russian company which is on the USFC list, that includes all the yards belonging to USC.

Baltics No 1 slip is 350m, it has a weight limit which means it's out of the question. To build a carrier the yard would need to undergo a massive rebuilding, there's not enough space, no gantry cranes, it's a very old fashioned yard. Is it worth rebuilding the yard to build larger tonnage vessels or is the land worth more for housing, business centers, hotels and shopping malls. All the St Petersburg yards have the same problem, they all sit on land which is more valuable than the yards which use it. USC should close them, sell them and build the new mega yard they have been talking about on Kronstadt Island.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Строительство «Кольской верфи» в Белокаменке

DMSE Zvezda basically has building capacity of all USC yards combined, and Chinese and South Koreans are still helping the Russians with the project.

Baltic slip 1 weight limit is 100,000 tons. Baltic could be build the light Shtorm carrier, but the yard would need retooling for something bigger.

 

[Feanor]

Belokamenka, Murmansk Oblast

Kolskaya Verf (Novatek)

Russia is building several major shipyards around country for its oil and gas industry. They may be viable alternative to USC in the future. The two docks at Kolskaya Verf will be 400m long.

You're right. Look at that fully built shipyard. With workers. Ready to start work on a carrier any minute now.

What are the construction timeframes for corvettes and frigates at already established naval yards? How are the costs behaving?

Now extrapolate that to a whole new vessel, of a type Russia has literally never built, on a whole new yard. Speaking optimistically, that the project gets completed in the end, that Russia manages to develop all the technologies needed to built and operate a CVN, so... once again, speaking optimistically, how long would it take and how much would it cost?

 

[Feanor]

Novatek working on two large lng projects on or near the Yamal Pennisula the shipyard will build the facilities for those projects. The Artic Lng II project is one of largest lng projects in the world. Russian press can uncover a great amount of things about its federal, provincial, and local governments.

The defense procurement programs have earned b- from me to date. The Russian military has come along way from 2008. The big programs like air defense procurement projects, su-27 family, and nuclear rearmament programs haven't failed. There have been late projects, but that should be expected. The Udaloy class modernisation will be slow.

Don't conflate Sukhoi, which is a successful aerospace company, and has been since the mid-90s, with the shipbuilding industry. If we were talking about the ability of Sukhoi to produce the airgroup for a new carrier, around a proposed upgraded Su-33 standardized with the Su-35S on engines and radar, I would share your optimism. If we were talking about their ability to navalize the Su-57 I too would agree that, in principle, they can do it. But we're talking about an industry that has done a downright awful job maintaining the existing fleet, and producing much smaller and much less complex warships, tackling a project that's bigger than anything they've ever done, and by quite a solid margin. If the Ivan Gren 2.0 project is successful, if a new helo carrier project sees traction, and if the 22350M finally sees production for a new light destroyer/heavy frigate, then, building on all that success, we can talk about the prospects of a CVN.

 

[Spacearrow99]

I said Russia need new carriersvin 15 to 20 years. A new carrier will be built at the end of current procurement program or at the start of the next program. The nuclear procurement should be coming to completion by that time; money shouldn't be problem. Russia is bringing online 367 bcm natural gas over next two decades. I don't know Putin's plan about the Rssian economy. He could be doing many things that would improve the economy.

 

[Ananda]

Russia’s cutting-edge missile corvette enters shipbuilders’ final trials

This latest news from TASS still implied that for foreseeable future Russian Navy still going to focus on project 20385 Corvettes and 22350 Frigates.

This is far compared to China that already shown projects implementation of carriers fleet. Putting 15 to 20 years ahead for Carrier need is very plausible in talking of 'need's perspective. However on talking on willingness and Implementations perspective is different altogether.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Don't conflate Sukhoi, which is a successful aerospace company, and has been since the mid-90s, with the shipbuilding industry. If we were talking about the ability of Sukhoi to produce the airgroup for a new carrier, around a proposed upgraded Su-33 standardized with the Su-35S on engines and radar, I would share your optimism. If we were talking about their ability to navalize the Su-57 I too would agree that, in principle, they can do it. But we're talking about an industry that has done a downright awful job maintaining the existing fleet, and producing much smaller and much less complex warships, tackling a project that's bigger than anything they've ever done, and by quite a solid margin. If the Ivan Gren 2.0 project is successful, if a new helo carrier project sees traction, and if the 22350M finally sees production for a new light destroyer/heavy frigate, then, building on all that success, we can talk about the prospects of a CVN.

When the Mistral Class helicopter carriers project was not yet cancelled, there were plans that two more will be built in Russia by a DCNS/Russian United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) joint-venture. Would these two vessels be build in a shipyard already capable of constructing 200 meters long 21.000 ton heavy ships, or was the plan to construct a new yard for this project?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Russia’s cutting-edge missile corvette enters shipbuilders’ final trials

This latest news from TASS still implied that for foreseeable future Russian Navy still going to focus on project 20385 Corvettes and 22350 Frigates.

This is far compared to China that already shown projects implementation of carriers fleet. Putting 15 to 20 years ahead for Carrier need is very plausible in talking of 'need's perspective. However on talking on willingness and Implementations perspective is different altogether.

Focussing on the 22800, 20380/85/86, 11356 and 22350 is also the best thing the Russian Navy can do, cost effective and powerful for their sizes. These ships will replace older (and larger) models but for example the 22350 doesn't need to be as large as the 956 to replace it.


Btw, the Admiral Amelko and Admiral Chichagov (nr 3 and 4 of the class) are two modified Project 22350 frigates, but i wonder when they start to build the 22350M...

 

[Feanor]

Focussing on the 22800, 20380/85/86, 11356 and 22350 is also the best thing the Russian Navy can do, cost effective and powerful for their sizes. These ships will replace older (and larger) models but for example the 22350 doesn't need to be as large as the 956 to replace it.

The 11356 are probably done for the VMF. There was some point in getting them in 2015-16-17. There is little point in paying for powerplant development and purchasing newbuilds in 2025. Unfortunately the 20380/385s might also be done after the current vessels are finished. The 20386 is being touted as the new corvette despite it's ridiculous build costs, near-frigate size, and unimpressive capabilities. It's a really poor decision in my opinion.

Btw, the Admiral Amelko and Admiral Chichagov (nr 3 and 4 of the class) are two modified Project 22350 frigates, but i wonder when they start to build the 22350M...

The information that's been coming out on the 22350M recently suggests that this is a much larger ship, closer to a light destroyer. If this is true, the best choice, in my opinion, would be to build both along side. Perhaps a 22350.1 with slightly increased combat load, and a 22350M as a destroyer replacement for the 956s and 1155s. Russia needs a medium sized blue water warship that can be built in numbers (at least one full brigade of 6 for Northern and Pacific fleets, and maybe 3 vessels each for Black Sea and Baltic, possibly another 3 for the Mediterranean if they're serious about making the Mediterranean squadron a permanent formation rather then a rotating deployment).

 

[seaspear]

If it was just a lack of facilities to build a carrier is it possible for one to be built in China then brought to Russia to finish off ? I would be certain though that the political will would be against this especially if there is not seeen a priority for this type of vessel let alone money

 

[Feanor]

Updates.

The latest 21631 is being towed to the Black Sea to finish construction. This is the 8th ship of the type, expected to join the Black Sea Fleet.

Малый ракетный корабль «Ингушетия» проекта 21631 отведен на Черное море

A new tanker has been launched on in the Russian Far East for the Pacific Fleet.

Спущен на воду малый морской танкер «Михаил Барсков» проекта 03182

The AVMF has put out a requirement for a new ASW plane. It's unclear whether we're talking about a maritime patrol aircraft with ASW capabilities or a dedicated and limited ASW-only aircraft. The CAST article mentions an Il-114 carrying the Novella system, which really wouldn't offer any advantage over the Il-38N, but details are lacking, so it remains to be seen what actually emerges.

A new maritime patrol aircraft with modern ASW capabilities is badly needed but I have my doubts about Russia having the technology, experience needed to formulate that requirement, or the funding, needed to complete this project. I strongly suspect that the best the AVMF can hope for is something more capable then the Il-38N on a modern aircraft, with some additional maritime patrol capabilities.

Министерство обороны России выпустило запрос на новый противолодочный самолет

EDIT: At MAKS-2019 a model of an MPA was presented of an Il-114. Details on the plane are lacking.

Wall

 

[Feanor]

Update.

22 new ships and vessels are planned to be laid down in 2020 for the VMF. Allegedly this includes another pair of 22350 frigates. This would mean that the run of the 22350 series is going beyond the planned 6 vessels. They're also laying down two more 885Ms, and 3 636s and 677s (not 3 each, 3 total without a breakdown by type, but if history is any indication it would be 1 677, and 2 636). The plans also include two helo carriers, to be built in Crimea. Personally I think this is rather optimistic.

Для ВМФ России в 2020 году заложат 22 корабля и судна
Первые два российских вертолетоносца заложат на заводе "Залив" в Крыму в мае 2020 года

The third 20380 corvette for the Pacific is nearing completion, as is the second 11711.

Корвет «Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов» выведен из эллинга Амурского завода
Ход постройки "Моргунова" (2)

Testing of the French unmanned mine clearing surface vessel Inspector are continuing.

Без особой огласки в России проходят испытания безэкипажного катера «Искатель»
https://www.ecagroup.com/en/solutions/unmanned-surface-vehicle-inspector-120

The third project 12700 mine trawler has begun factory sea trials.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3788102.html

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Update.

22 new ships and vessels are planned to be laid down in 2020 for the VMF. Allegedly this includes another pair of 22350 frigates. This would mean that the run of the 22350 series is going beyond the planned 6 vessels. They're also laying down two more 885Ms, and 3 636s and 677s (not 3 each, 3 total without a breakdown by type, but if history is any indication it would be 1 677, and 2 636). The plans also include two helo carriers, to be built in Crimea. Personally I think this is rather optimistic.

Для ВМФ России в 2020 году заложат 22 корабля и судна
Первые два российских вертолетоносца заложат на заводе "Залив" в Крыму в мае 2020 года

The third 20380 corvette for the Pacific is nearing completion, as is the second 11711.

Корвет «Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов» выведен из эллинга Амурского завода
Ход постройки "Моргунова" (2)

Testing of the French unmanned mine clearing surface vessel Inspector are continuing.

Без особой огласки в России проходят испытания безэкипажного катера «Искатель»
Inspector 120 / USV / Unmanned Surface Vehicle

The third project 12700 mine trawler has begun factory sea trials.

Морской тральщик «Владимир Емельянов» проекта 12700 вышел на заводские ходовые испытания

Thanks for sharing.
Just want to ask, are the Project 677 boats to be armed with Kalibr (3M54K and 3M14K) missiles, or only with torpedoes?

 

[Feanor]

Thanks for sharing.
Just want to ask, are the Project 677 boats to be armed with Kalibr (3M54K and 3M14K) missiles, or only with torpedoes?

The submarine launched Kalibr missiles are launched through the torpedo tubes. So presumably yes, they are.