Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
THIS appeared on my news feed earlier today...

New stealthy Russian attack subs begins sea trials

Interesting to see the Kilo's being 'reborn'
"New stealthy Russian attack subs begins sea trials" .... remarkable title for such a news article, after all, all submarines are made to be stealthy.

"The submarines have improved engines and combat system, as well as new noise reduction technology. Those noise reduction measures reportedly include a rubber base for the propulsion system to prevent vibrations as well as a noise-reducing anechoic material coating on the outer hull to prevent noise coming from the vessel’s interior."
Thats quite standard

"Of note, the submarines do not have air-independent propulsion systems which would reportedly add to its overall stealthy operation."
With other words, having not an AIP-system installed, makes it more stealthy?


So this newsarticle is created by professionals who called themselves "American Military News"?

"Thank you for stopping by to learn more about American Military News, our mission, leadership and more.
...........
We have interviewed, profiled and spoken with everyone from the U.S. Senate Majority leader, Hollywood stars, professional athletes to leading investigative exposes.
"

Yes, that sounds professional....
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some updates.

The second 22800 has entered service. This leaves the Baltic Fleet with 4 small missiles ships, two 21631s and two 22800s. From the third hull onward the 22800s will carry a navalized Pantsyr-M, making them more then just a small floating missile arsenal.

На МРК «Советск» поднят Андреевский флаг

The first 636.3 for the Pacific Fleet has completed sea trials. While this is a much needed re-armament for the Pacific Fleet, overall I'm not optimistic. The Pacific fleet is currently getting 4 20380s, 6 636.3s, and 6 22800s. This is not exactly impressive. It's possible that the upgraded 1155Ms will go to the Pacific for it's blue-water component, while the Northern Fleet will take the new 22350s, but the timeline on that is downright ugly.

Завершен морской этап государственных испытаний подводной лодки «Петропавловск-Камчатский»
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
I think the problem Russia has with its navy is that they don't want to settle on one design an build it in bulk, they built multiple different designs which on appearances perform the same tasks. It's like going into most Russian restaurants, they have massive menus with far too many choices, rather than specialising on one type of cuisine.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think the problem Russia has with its navy is that they don't want to settle on one design an build it in bulk, they built multiple different designs which on appearances perform the same tasks. It's like going into most Russian restaurants, they have massive menus with far too many choices, rather than specialising on one type of cuisine.
Yes, it's the result of constant changes in policies and plans. The VMF hasn't had a stable long term development plan, and what it has constantly gets corrected. It's very unfortunate.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is a questionable decision in my opinion. The Soviets had good success with the 1124 MPKs but I doubt this can be replicated today and in fact I think any sort for 1 for 1 replacement of Soviet green-water vessels is a bad idea. I think they need to focus on upgrading the ASW capabilities of the 20380 and 22350s, and continue a larger production run of the 20380s for the Black Sea Fleet and Northern Fleets (I think realistically they need at least a full brigade of 6 on the Baltic and Black Sea, and 12 each for the Northern and Pacific fleets). They need to ditch the small missile ship program after the completion of the current production run, and stay away from narrowly specialized smaller vessels. The real problem with ASW is that Russia is decades behind in this field, not the lack of vessels. And a multirole corvette and frigate allow for more long term flexibility.

EDIT: Sorry, I completely forgot about the production bottleneck for the 22800s. Their engines are coming out at a pace of 1-1.5 per year effectively capping production. Not sure how or when they will overcome this.
 
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Watchkeeper

New Member
Long-time lurker here but I have not been posting here for years. Anyway, as I Finnish Navy reservist I have been quite puzzled about the current status and composition of the Russian Baltic Fleet for a long time.

Basically what I don't really get is the current overall mission of the Baltic Fleet and it's overall capabilities in relation that. So I'm hoping that @Feanor and other members have more experience and knowledge about the Russian Navy could shed some light into this.

The way I see it is that current structure of the Baltic Fleet is mostly a Soviet-time relic and it's current capabilities don't reflect the security situation around the Baltic Sea in any proper way.

To start with there are one Project 956 Sovremenny class destroyer and two Project 11540 Neustrashimyy class ASW frigates (I may have some details wrong here, but the overall picture is key here). The Sovremenny is a fairly old antiship focused destroyer whose capabilities in a modern ASuW scenario are somewhat questionable. Then the Neustrashimyy class frigates are probably quite capable in ASW there are only two of them and I don't really get what their mission in any kind of a more serous conflict with eg. NATO would be...?

There are four quite modern Project 20380 Steregushchiy class corvettes but even they are no match for NATO capabilities in the area. Finally there is a huge variety of different smaller ships and missile boats of questionable combat utily.

Based on the information I have there is only one Improved Kilo class submarine in service with the Baltic Fleet. So Submarine availability is at best very limited for the Baltic Fleet.

Of course there is the naval aviation side with Su-27 Flankers and Su-24 Fencers in addition to the land-based Kh-35 and 3M55 anti-ship missiles.

There are certainly some things I have missed in the overview here but the overall picture should be pretty clear by now. The main issue I have with the current composition of the Baltic Fleet is that I don't see them as anything more than a some kind of a speed bump in even a rather limited military conflict with NATO. Their air, surface or undersea capabilities are no match for NATO capabilities in respective areas. In any kind of military conflict NATO would first use their superior airpower to destroy any Russian surface assets in the Baltic Sea and after that there is very little that lone Kilo class submarine could do on her own.

Heck, if the political will would be there even combined Finnish and Swedish navies could probably dispatch the Baltic Fleet to the bottom of the seas in short order. So I'm really wondering what the Russians are actually trying to achieve with their whole Baltic Fleet at the moment?

The way I see the current situation is that the Baltic Fleet has way too many separate classes of small combat vessels of questionable combat value. If I structured the Baltic Fleet from scratch I would probably have let's say eight Project 20380 Steregushchiy class corvettes, four Project 21631 Buyan M class corvettes and four Improved Kilo class submarines. In essence just 2-3 different classes of modern air-defense capable warships and considerably larger amount of submarines. The current composition of the Baltic Fleet includes way too many different classes of old and too small vessels that just strain maintenance and manpower resources for very little actual gain in combat capability.

These are of course just my two cents, any thoughts or comments? Something I have missed completely?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Long-time lurker here but I have not been posting here for years. Anyway, as I Finnish Navy reservist I have been quite puzzled about the current status and composition of the Russian Baltic Fleet for a long time.

Basically what I don't really get is the current overall mission of the Baltic Fleet and it's overall capabilities in relation that. So I'm hoping that @Feanor and other members have more experience and knowledge about the Russian Navy could shed some light into this.

The way I see it is that current structure of the Baltic Fleet is mostly a Soviet-time relic and it's current capabilities don't reflect the security situation around the Baltic Sea in any proper way.
Your analysis here is fundamentally correct. The Baltic Fleet is actually in decent shape (compared to say the Pacific Fleet) but it's structure is poorly optimized.

To start with there are one Project 956 Sovremenny class destroyer and two Project 11540 Neustrashimyy class ASW frigates (I may have some details wrong here, but the overall picture is key here). The Sovremenny is a fairly old antiship focused destroyer whose capabilities in a modern ASuW scenario are somewhat questionable. Then the Neustrashimyy class frigates are probably quite capable in ASW there are only two of them and I don't really get what their mission in any kind of a more serous conflict with eg. NATO would be...?

There are four quite modern Project 20380 Steregushchiy class corvettes but even they are no match for NATO capabilities in the area. Finally there is a huge variety of different smaller ships and missile boats of questionable combat utility.

Based on the information I have there is only one Improved Kilo class submarine in service with the Baltic Fleet. So Submarine availability is at best very limited for the Baltic Fleet.

Of course there is the naval aviation side with Su-27 Flankers and Su-24 Fencers in addition to the land-based Kh-35 and 3M55 anti-ship missiles.
To clarify the Kilo isn't really improved. It's a Soviet era project 877 and nearing the end of its service life. I recall an announcement about new subs for the Baltic fleet, if it follows the pattern they could get 2, 3, 4, or 6 improved Kilos like the Black Sea and Pacific fleets. The 956 destroyer had less than stellar ASW even back in the 80s (the ASW role was left to the 1155 BPKs). And it's not really in good working order. Navy-korabel tracks VMF assets monthly, and as best as I can tell from his shorthand, the Nastoychiviy hasn't been active since 2015 with 2020 as a tentative return to service date (Корабельный состав ВМФ РФ (боевые корабли основных классов) на 01.11.2019). It's not in reserve or completely non-functional but it's unlikely that it's ready for major action. The project 11540s are decent multirole frigates but they are dated, though not yet obsolete. The 20380s really are the best the Baltic Fleet has to offer and I think the 4 of them combined, with the two 11540s to support, wouldn't be able to keep shipping lines to Kaliningrad open against a combined NATO effort, much less do anything else.

As for the airwing, it now has Su-30SM, making it a tad more formidable, and the Kh-35U (X-35U) is being deployed, though I'm unsure if the Baltic Fleet has gotten them yet, offering allegedly double the range.

You also missed 4 significant new additions, two 21631 and two 22800 small missile ships. While their value as a warship is limited, their combined volley of 32 long range cruise missiles or AShMs does help.

There are certainly some things I have missed in the overview here but the overall picture should be pretty clear by now. The main issue I have with the current composition of the Baltic Fleet is that I don't see them as anything more than a some kind of a speed bump in even a rather limited military conflict with NATO. Their air, surface or undersea capabilities are no match for NATO capabilities in respective areas. In any kind of military conflict NATO would first use their superior airpower to destroy any Russian surface assets in the Baltic Sea and after that there is very little that lone Kilo class submarine could do on her own.
It all badly depends on the scenario. The Baltic Fleet benefits from ground-based IADS both over Kaliningrad and around St. Petersburg. It also would be reinforced by VVS units virtually immediately. And that brings multiple regiments of modern fighter jets, AEW, ELINT, advanced jamming, etc. NATO is certainly more powerful as a whole but the effort required to overcome this would necessitate at least some sort of buildup, providing plenty of advanced warning (in theory anyway). There's also a missile brigade in Kaliningrad, which means that NATO airfields could and would be targeted by both cruise and ballistic missiles. Final, and worst case scenario, would be the use of tactical nuclear weapons against NATO. While there's no guarantee it would go this way, between missile brigades in Leningrad Region and Kaliningrad, as well as near Pskov, and those small missile ships we mentioned, and long range aviation with their shiny new X-101s, there's little doubt that Russia has the ability to carry out a limited nuclear strike against NATO targets in Europe successfully, and certainly has the ability to credibly threaten NATO with one. Which raises the question; in what context would Russia and NATO even go to war here? If your argument is that the Baltic Fleet is no match for combined NATO fleets in and immediately near the Baltic, then you're not wrong. But what kind of war do you even have in mind? Is the entire goal of this hypothetical war to take control of the Baltic Sea from Russia at any cost?

Heck, if the political will would be there even combined Finnish and Swedish navies could probably dispatch the Baltic Fleet to the bottom of the seas in short order. So I'm really wondering what the Russians are actually trying to achieve with their whole Baltic Fleet at the moment?
This seems highly unlikely. While the Swedes and Finns have some impressive ships and are very well trained, and Russia will certainly trip over its own feet in ASW and mine-clearing matters, it's one thing to pick off a couple of Russian ships lost due to poor planning and above-mentioned deficiencies. It's another to actively take out the entire Baltic Fleet, again considering the VVS involvement, as well as the extensive GBAD network. And of course Finnish sailors would come back to Russian tanks parked on their piers. So there's that minor matter... but once again, what's the context? Finland and Sweden randomly deciding that this is the day they're finally going to get Russia back for the Northern War?

The way I see the current situation is that the Baltic Fleet has way too many separate classes of small combat vessels of questionable combat value. If I structured the Baltic Fleet from scratch I would probably have let's say eight Project 20380 Steregushchiy class corvettes, four Project 21631 Buyan M class corvettes and four Improved Kilo class submarines. In essence just 2-3 different classes of modern air-defense capable warships and considerably larger amount of submarines. The current composition of the Baltic Fleet includes way too many different classes of old and too small vessels that just strain maintenance and manpower resources for very little actual gain in combat capability.

These are of course just my two cents, any thoughts or comments? Something I have missed completely?
You're actually not too far from the mark. The end picture for the Baltic fleet will probably include 6 20380/20385 corvettes, 6-8 small missile ships (only two will be Buyan, and even they're better off somewhere else, the 22800s are a better fit), and likely at least 3 new Kilos, possibly more, possibly even some of the new project 677 boats, though for now they seem destined for the Northern fleet. The 11540s will of course remain in service for the forseeable future, possibly with some sort of upgrade program. Except, I'm not sure what this would change? Combined NATO forces in and around the Baltic would still massively outclass your proposed fleet structure. ASW would still be weak, minesweeping near non-existent, and Kilos are nowhere as impressive today as they once were.

The gaggle of older Soviet vessels will likely slowly fade away, with some of the small anti-submarine ships and small missile ships being replaced by modern equivalents (a dubious move in my opinion but that seems to be where things are headed) the Soviet destroyers will go out of service, and the rest won't change much. There's even a new minesweeper in production, but the anti-mine complex it carries has some serious issues.

Also the combat utility of an individual Soviet era small missile boat is limited, but it's better to have then not to have. Worst case scenario they will make for extra targets that need to be hit, best case scenario they can contribute to a missile volley against a hostile surface asset.

Final point, in my opinion, in the medium term, the Baltic Fleet will build much in the direction you envision, though with some changes. Their goal would be to be able to prevent Kaliningrad from ending up completely cut off in the event of a war. With a large ground forces grouping there, considerable air defense, and an entire missile brigade, keeping it from being completely blockaded would make it a thorn in the side of anyone trying to attack Russia, and would likely stall NATO forces considerably, giving Russia time to move additional assets to front, overrun the Baltics, and ensure compliance from Belarus, putting Russia in a decent shape to fight a large battle or two in the corridor between the Baltic Sea and the Ukrainian border.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your explanation Feanor!
The first boat of the Project 677 Lada Class are for the Baltic fleet, the second and third boats are redesigned and modified, but how operationable (combat capable) is the first of class, B-585?

Second question, what are the problems with the new Alexandrit minehunters?
 

Watchkeeper

New Member
Your analysis here is fundamentally correct. The Baltic Fleet is actually in decent shape (compared to say the Pacific Fleet) but it's structure is poorly optimized.
Thank you for the clarifying comments. For me personally the actual mission of the Baltic Fleet after Cold War hasn't been that clear. There isn't any substantial amphibious capability left nor would I find that even really feasible against most adversaries around the Baltic Sea (lots of talk about Gotland and Åland Islands in the Finnish and Swedish media during the last couple years, but personally I don't see that as a very realistic scenario).

On the other hand I don't see Baltic Fleet as strong enough to be able to really safeguard maritime supply lines between St. Petersburg and Kaliningrad in a wartime scenario nor being able to really challenge NATO for the maritime control of the Baltic Sea for that matter.

I just feel that the missions of the Northern Fleet or Black Sea Fleet, for instance, have always been more clear cut and logical to me.


To clarify the Kilo isn't really improved. It's a Soviet era project 877 and nearing the end of its service life. I recall an announcement about new subs for the Baltic fleet, if it follows the pattern they could get 2, 3, 4, or 6 improved Kilos like the Black Sea and Pacific fleets. The 956 destroyer had less than stellar ASW even back in the 80s (the ASW role was left to the 1155 BPKs). And it's not really in good working order. Navy-korabel tracks VMF assets monthly, and as best as I can tell from his shorthand, the Nastoychiviy hasn't been active since 2015 with 2020 as a tentative return to service date (Корабельный состав ВМФ РФ (боевые корабли основных классов) на 01.11.2019). It's not in reserve or completely non-functional but it's unlikely that it's ready for major action. The project 11540s are decent multirole frigates but they are dated, though not yet obsolete. The 20380s really are the best the Baltic Fleet has to offer and I think the 4 of them combined, with the two 11540s to support, wouldn't be able to keep shipping lines to Kaliningrad open against a combined NATO effort, much less do anything else.
I was recently reading a Finnish media article about possible Project 636.3 submarines for the Baltic Fleet and just mixed up the submarine designations. Anyway they said the construction of those new Project 636.3 submarines for the Baltic Fleet would start at the earliest in 2022.

As for the airwing, it now has Su-30SM, making it a tad more formidable, and the Kh-35U (X-35U) is being deployed, though I'm unsure if the Baltic Fleet has gotten them yet, offering allegedly double the range.

You also missed 4 significant new additions, two 21631 and two 22800 small missile ships. While their value as a warship is limited, their combined volley of 32 long range cruise missiles or AShMs does help.
Now that you mentioned I remember myself reading about those new Su-30SM's for the Baltic Fleet. A considerable capability improvement but with Denmark and Poland getting the F-35 NATO edge in the air combat capability will remain for the time being.

Actually I knew about the Buyan M and Karakurt class corvettes but I didn't consider them that significant in comparison to the land-based and air launched anti-ship missiles the Baltic Fleet has.


It all badly depends on the scenario. The Baltic Fleet benefits from ground-based IADS both over Kaliningrad and around St. Petersburg. It also would be reinforced by VVS units virtually immediately. And that brings multiple regiments of modern fighter jets, AEW, ELINT, advanced jamming, etc. NATO is certainly more powerful as a whole but the effort required to overcome this would necessitate at least some sort of buildup, providing plenty of advanced warning (in theory anyway). There's also a missile brigade in Kaliningrad, which means that NATO airfields could and would be targeted by both cruise and ballistic missiles. Final, and worst case scenario, would be the use of tactical nuclear weapons against NATO. While there's no guarantee it would go this way, between missile brigades in Leningrad Region and Kaliningrad, as well as near Pskov, and those small missile ships we mentioned, and long range aviation with their shiny new X-101s, there's little doubt that Russia has the ability to carry out a limited nuclear strike against NATO targets in Europe successfully, and certainly has the ability to credibly threaten NATO with one. Which raises the question; in what context would Russia and NATO even go to war here? If your argument is that the Baltic Fleet is no match for combined NATO fleets in and immediately near the Baltic, then you're not wrong. But what kind of war do you even have in mind? Is the entire goal of this hypothetical war to take control of the Baltic Sea from Russia at any cost?
I'm well aware of the formidable ground-based IADS the Russians have in Kaliningrad and the whole A2/AD bubble they trying to create around Kaliningrad. I just feel that the Baltic Fleet capabilities pale in comparison to the other capabilities of the Russian Air Force and Russian Army in the Western Military District.

I have never doubted the Russian nuclear strike capabilities, in the interest of world peace I would hope that the Russian conventional capabilities would be a bit stronger so that any potential crisis with NATO in the Baltics would not escalate to the nuclear domain so easily. Ultimately I see that being also in the interest of the West in the longer run. I don't like Russia bullying their smaller neighbors but certainly there are legitimate security concerns for Russia in the Baltic Region too. The best overall situation would be that there is some kind of a balance between NATO and Russian military capabilities in the region.

In a military conflict between NATO and Russia in the Baltic Region I see role of the Russian Baltic Fleet being to deny the arrival of NATO naval reinforcements to the Baltic Sea and to safeguard a maritime flank for the Russian Army when they are invading the Baltic States and driving NATO land forces back to Poland. In other words they act as buffer between the North Sea and the Baltic Sea and guarantee to Russian Army a freedom to operate in the Baltics without NATO naval incursions.

In that respect I don't see any real combat role for the Project 956 ASW destroyers for example. There isn't any proper ASW role (even for which the 956 destroyers are ill-suited) for the Baltic Fleet when the real mission for the Baltic Fleet is to survive long enough to allow the Russian Army to capture the Baltic States and simultaneously cause as much casualties as possible for the NATO navies while doing that.

This seems highly unlikely. While the Swedes and Finns have some impressive ships and are very well trained, and Russia will certainly trip over its own feet in ASW and mine-clearing matters, it's one thing to pick off a couple of Russian ships lost due to poor planning and above-mentioned deficiencies. It's another to actively take out the entire Baltic Fleet, again considering the VVS involvement, as well as the extensive GBAD network. And of course Finnish sailors would come back to Russian tanks parked on their piers. So there's that minor matter... but once again, what's the context? Finland and Sweden randomly deciding that this is the day they're finally going to get Russia back for the Northern War?
This was just a thought experiment in comparing the relative strengths of the navies in the Baltic Sea Region. In any real conflict between those three countries the only realistic scenario is that the Russia would be some kind of a aggressor and Finland and Sweden would be defending their national sovereignty.


Also the combat utility of an individual Soviet era small missile boat is limited, but it's better to have then not to have. Worst case scenario they will make for extra targets that need to be hit, best case scenario they can contribute to a missile volley against a hostile surface asset.
I was thinking along the same lines that those small missile boats could just provide extra targets for the enemy to go after while in best case scenario being able to cause additional casualties for the enemy. Now that I think about it more, reality is that until you destroy the last one of those you can't really let the naval supply ships operate freely or conduct any kind of a amphibious operation for that matter.

Perhaps one thing I didn't really take into account completely is the Russian mentality concerning potential casualties. I know that in Russian strategic thinking pretty much any individual military asset can be sacrificed if some greater objective can be attained through that. Russian military planners aren't even remotely as afraid about potential casualties as military planners in the West.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Launched on 25 October 2019, the new Project 23550 multi purpose ice breaker Ivan Papanin. With a length of 114 meters and a displacement of 9000 ton, it also seems to become the heaviest armed ice breaker in the world.
Interesting video:
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was recently reading a Finnish media article about possible Project 636.3 submarines for the Baltic Fleet and just mixed up the submarine designations. Anyway they said the construction of those new Project 636.3 submarines for the Baltic Fleet would start at the earliest in 2022.
This seems like a reasonable time frame. The Alrosa 877 currently undergoing repairs in the Black Sea will likely transition to the Baltic, as they already have 6 new Kilos down there. It will either augment or replace the older 877 currently in the Black Sea.

Now that you mentioned I remember myself reading about those new Su-30SM's for the Baltic Fleet. A considerable capability improvement but with Denmark and Poland getting the F-35 NATO edge in the air combat capability will remain for the time being.
There is essentially one air regiment, currently flying a squadron of Su-30SM and a squadron of Su-24M to be replaced by more of the Su-30SM in the future. So in any conflict with NATO it will fall to the VVS to provide the overwhelming majority of the air power. The best case scenario, the AVMF regiment can get in some good missile strikes in.

Actually I knew about the Buyan M and Karakurt class corvettes but I didn't consider them that significant in comparison to the land-based and air launched anti-ship missiles the Baltic Fleet has.
Their range outclasses anything except the long-range cruise missiles of Long Range Aviation. If I recall correctly, they have over 2500 km range.

I'm well aware of the formidable ground-based IADS the Russians have in Kaliningrad and the whole A2/AD bubble they trying to create around Kaliningrad. I just feel that the Baltic Fleet capabilities pale in comparison to the other capabilities of the Russian Air Force and Russian Army in the Western Military District.
The Baltic Fleet should not be looked at in isolation. It relies heavily on its land-based support assets.

In a military conflict between NATO and Russia in the Baltic Region I see role of the Russian Baltic Fleet being to deny the arrival of NATO naval reinforcements to the Baltic Sea and to safeguard a maritime flank for the Russian Army when they are invading the Baltic States and driving NATO land forces back to Poland. In other words they act as buffer between the North Sea and the Baltic Sea and guarantee to Russian Army a freedom to operate in the Baltics without NATO naval incursions.

In that respect I don't see any real combat role for the Project 956 ASW destroyers for example. There isn't any proper ASW role (even for which the 956 destroyers are ill-suited) for the Baltic Fleet when the real mission for the Baltic Fleet is to survive long enough to allow the Russian Army to capture the Baltic States and simultaneously cause as much casualties as possible for the NATO navies while doing that.
Considering the numbers and quality of Germand and Swedish subs, I think ASW is an important mission for the Baltic Fleet.

This was just a thought experiment in comparing the relative strengths of the navies in the Baltic Sea Region. In any real conflict between those three countries the only realistic scenario is that the Russia would be some kind of a aggressor and Finland and Sweden would be defending their national sovereignty.
I don't find that scenario realistic. I don't see any realistic scenario where Russia and Finland would end up at war.

I was thinking along the same lines that those small missile boats could just provide extra targets for the enemy to go after while in best case scenario being able to cause additional casualties for the enemy. Now that I think about it more, reality is that until you destroy the last one of those you can't really let the naval supply ships operate freely or conduct any kind of a amphibious operation for that matter.
Exactly. They're not as useful as an additional 4 corvettes, but they're not completely useless either. And they already exist.

On a side note the Baltic Fleet does actually have decent amphibious assault capabilities, in principle. It has 4 BDKs, each capable of carrying a btln of marines. Together they can probably offload the better part of the 336th Marine Brigade in one wave. Now, getting them to a potential landing site is a whole different story. This is where those ASW and mine-sweeping deficiencies come out.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thank you for your explanation Feanor!
The first boat of the Project 677 Lada Class are for the Baltic fleet, the second and third boats are redesigned and modified, but how operationable (combat capable) is the first of class, B-585?

Second question, what are the problems with the new Alexandrit minehunters?
Sorry, I entirely missed this.

I have no idea about how combat capable the first 677 is. I suspect it is fundamentally capable, but many of its systems might suffer from development-related issues.

The problem with the 12700s is that it doesn't have a good minesweeping system. They're counting on importing the French Inspector Mk 2 unmanned minesweepers, but not only are they not the greatest system it's also a NATO import (amazingly enough it appears sanctions haven't actually cut these plans off completely as trials have continued with imported sweepers, though this is fuzzy).
 
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