Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Severnaya Veft is under modernization and building capacity is down. I stand by statements on the 20386.

Russia's financial situation is stable. And they're are spending about 4% nominal GDP terms. A far great amount of Russia's defense is spent on procurement then the West.
 
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Feanor

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My take (for what that is worth...) is also that a CVN is rather unrealistic, for a number of reasons. Apart from the costs and difficulties in actually designing and manufacturing a CVN, there are all the supporting systems would also need to be acquired to make a CVN useful. Unless the Russian Armed Forces planned on altering their force balance to acquire and then enable operations of these supporting systems.

Essentially, the Russian Navy would need to develop both the doctrine and conops necessary to operate a CBG of some sort, but then also acquire the various pieces of kit required in their CBG. I could see this turn leading to a number of new naval and aviation projects for Russia. All of which makes me suspect that this is not something Russia could properly carry out at the present time.
A good hint is the fact that no work on a navalized Su-57 has been announced. Instead there has been mention of a new VTOL jet project, possibly based around an updated Yak-141 (though the last part is mostly speculation). This suggests that they're serious about looking at a large LHD like the Lavina model displayed not too long ago, but are not in a hurry to work on the types of things needed for a CVN. I think another strong indicator would be if the AVMF purchases more helo-based AEW, or if they announce a fixed-wing "light" AEW concept.
 

Feanor

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Interesting, this article is about the third and fourth ships of the Project 11711 Ivan Gren class.
Two New Russian Ivan Gren-class Warships Likely To Be Helicopter Carriers
Yeah it's not news, this was known from the official laying down ceremony, the banners clearly showed a heavily modified ship, and it's full tonnage is likely to make it the largest ship the VMF has received in over two decades. I think that the future of the VMF, realistically speaking, will involve 22350s, and 11711s, for blue water operations over the next couple of decades. All the pretty models of nuclear battlecruisers ("destroyers") and aircraft carriers, are significantly less likely, and will make a smaller impact then a bigger production run of the smaller ships. And that's IF they get built.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
High end frigate maybe but it is still a frigate. I wonder if the Russians will ever get around to replacing their capital ships. Their big destroyers, cruisers and remaining aircraft carrier all date back to the 80s and 90s.
 

Feanor

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High end frigate maybe but it is still a frigate. I wonder if the Russians will ever get around to replacing their capital ships. Their big destroyers, cruisers and remaining aircraft carrier all date back to the 80s and 90s.
The replacement for the 956s and 1155s, and probably even the 1164s, is likely to be a combination of 22350s and 22350Ms (the 22350M is now looking to be a significantly larger ship, to the tune of 7000-8000 tonns). The replacement for the 1144 cruisers (all two of the ones to be retained) will likely be the 23560 "destroyer".
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The replacement for the 956s and 1155s, and probably even the 1164s, is likely to be a combination of 22350s and 22350Ms (the 22350M is now looking to be a significantly larger ship, to the tune of 7000-8000 tonns). The replacement for the 1144 cruisers (all two of the ones to be retained) will likely be the 23560 "destroyer".
Had to look it up myself but for any one else who doesn’t know either.
956 is the Sovremenny Class
1155 is the Udaloy Class
1164 is the Slava Class
1144 is the Kirov Class
Certainly all overdue for replacement the classes have all been around since the early 80s
 

ngatimozart

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Verified Defense Pro
High end frigate maybe but it is still a frigate. I wonder if the Russians will ever get around to replacing their capital ships. Their big destroyers, cruisers and remaining aircraft carrier all date back to the 80s and 90s.
Had to look it up myself but for any one else who doesn’t know either.
956 is the Sovremenny Class
1155 is the Udaloy Class
1164 is the Slava Class
1144 is the Kirov Class
Certainly all overdue for replacement the classes have all been around since the early 80s
Be that it may, the Voyenno-morskoy flot Rossiyskoy Federatsii is only one part of the Russian armed forces that require upgrading and the Russian state is not awash with an unlimited supply of treasure. Therein lies the problem for Russian military upgrades.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
Had to look it up myself but for any one else who doesn’t know either.
956 is the Sovremenny Class
1155 is the Udaloy Class
1164 is the Slava Class
1144 is the Kirov Class
Certainly all overdue for replacement the classes have all been around since the early 80s
What they're doing to the Nakhimov right now will border on producing a new ship in an old hull. With Peter the Great almost certainly next in line, those two aren't getting actually replaced in the next 15 years, possibly 20. The 956's are almost dead. Only 3 remain active, and they survive by cannibalizing other ships. The powerplants and poor maintenance have combined to put that entire type out of business. The 1155 has been the blue water workhorse of the VMF, and the current upgrade (1155M?), if applied to the entire fleet, will keep them chugging along for another 10-15 years alongside newer vessels. However given the slow rate of the work, perhaps only part of the fleet will be retained (4-6 ships instead of the current 8). The only one that's really unclear is the future of the 1164s. They're too small to be replaced by the planned 23560s, though the numbers currently planned would certainly make sense (6 ships replacing 2 1144s and 3 1164s). They're a little too big to be replaced by the planned 22350Ms? Though maybe not because the project is still shrouded in mystery. The 1164s are undergoing upgrades and repairs right now, with the Marshal Ustinov finished, and them trying to scrounge up funding for Moskva, but the upgrades are limited. It looks like the main radars and weapon systems remain the same. It's nothing to the tune of the 1155M or the 1144 upgrades, which suggests that they won't be in service as long? This to me suggests that some of them, along with the remaining 956s, will be retired by 2030, and possibly replaced (or "replaced" depending on how you feel about it) by the 22350M.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
Be that it may, the Voyenno-morskoy flot Rossiyskoy Federatsii is only one part of the Russian armed forces that require upgrading and the Russian state is not awash with an unlimited supply of treasure. Therein lies the problem for Russian military upgrades.
Well it's not just that either. The VMF has a lower priority, since Russia is not predominantly a naval power. Additionally they have to spend a lot of what they do get on their SLBM subs. And the VMF is split among 5 theaters of operation, making their presence in each individually less then impressive (while their combined roster still commands some respect). Finally shipbuilding in Russia is in rather poor shape.

On the positive side, the 22350 and 20380/385 are finally being built at a relatively decent pace. The modified 11711 project seems to offer a realistic and affordable solution for force projection on a budget, and within current technological capabilities. And the VVS has gotten so many new aircraft that mass procurement is slowing down and will continue to do so. The GPV-2020 (state armament procurement program) has primarily re-armed the airforce, has given a decent boost to the land forces, and has left the navy behind partially due to the poor state of shipbuilding, partially due to budgetary priorities, and partially due to piss poor planning. The GPV-2027 is supposed to prioritize the land force, with the next generation of ground platforms finally entering mass production (Armata, Kurganets, Bumerang, etc.). And there are quite a few other systems that need replacing, that are nearing completion (for example the venerable 2S9 heavy mortar is going to be replaced by the 2S42, the Strela-10 is getting replaced by the new Sosna, etc.). So all in all the VMF won't be entirely neglected. In my opinion the best outcome here is that the VMF takes delivery of all 5 currently under construction 22350s as part of GPV-2027, along with maybe the first (maybe both of the first 2) modified 11711s, and lays down 2 more modified 11711s and 4 more 22350s. Possibly they also lay down and near completion on the first 22350M, and the first true LHD/helo carrier (the exact nature of the project remains murky). All this while losing the 956s and possibly losing the Varyag 1144. This would give the VMF slightly expanded capabilities with a slightly reduced tonnage, and all on a realistic budget and build time frame (allowing for moderate improvements to work of the yards, based on similar moderate improvement over the past decade).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Besides the engines, what else are to be repaired/overhauled/upgraded of the Project 1155.1 Udaloy II ship?
No much information can be found of it on the internet.
Engines of Russian ASW Ship to Pass Overhaul Half-Year Before Ship’s Retrofit
Good question. Maybe it will get the minor upgrades that the 1155s have been getting so far, a new radar for the gun systems, a new navigation system, upgrades to the SATCOM, etc. Or maybe it will get the Shaposhnikov treatment, where they will remove the Rastrub, and the second gun, and mount 8 UKSK and two Uran launchers. Actually the full 1155M upgrade is still unclear, though the likeliest appears to be what I mentioned above.
 

Boatteacher

Active Member
I came here to see if there was any more information on a major Russian Submarine disaster. Why Russia's deep-sea disaster will stay a mystery

Evidently its a class Project 10831 deep diving sub. I've not heard of them and its far from clear what their mission is (if that's known). It seems half the crew died and the other half managed to somehow save the boat; although details are very sparse. Were they at depth when the accident happened? Did the survivors surface the boat? Did they sail it back to port?

It seems to have all the mystery of the Kursk; although in this case a mystery that may never be revealed.. .
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
I came here to see if there was any more information on a major Russian Submarine disaster. Why Russia's deep-sea disaster will stay a mystery

Evidently its a class Project 10831 deep diving sub. I've not heard of them and its far from clear what their mission is (if that's known). It seems half the crew died and the other half managed to somehow save the boat; although details are very sparse. Were they at depth when the accident happened? Did the survivors surface the boat? Did they sail it back to port?

It seems to have all the mystery of the Kursk; although in this case a mystery that may never be revealed.. .


Sounds like it was towed back to port

Tragic event, reports are that 6/14 held O-6 or greater ranks.


14 Russian sailors killed in submarine fire
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sounds like it was towed back to port

Tragic event, reports are that 6/14 held O-6 or greater ranks.

14 Russian sailors killed in submarine fire
My condolences to the Russian navy. Russian press say the sub on which the 14 servicemen died was an AS-12 "Losharik", which is used for special operations, but it is still not clear what caused the fire, which the crew ultimately brought under control; we don't know how many men survived. And there are still questions over exactly what vessel was involved. President Putin said the dead included two heroes of Russia and seven "captains 1st rank"- which seems unusually senior - for research work. Some media in Russia are citing sources saying they could have been on board a nuclear-powered submarine.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
My condolences to the Russian navy. Russian press say the sub on which the 14 servicemen died was an AS-12 "Losharik", which is used for special operations, but it is still not clear what caused the fire, which the crew ultimately brought under control; we don't know how many men survived. And there are still questions over exactly what vessel was involved. President Putin said the dead included two heroes of Russia and seven "captains 1st rank"- which seems unusually senior - for research work. Some media in Russia are citing sources saying they could have been on board a nuclear-powered submarine.
The AS-12 Losharik is nuclear powered. And like much of GUGI, it's "research" is often dedicated to things like tapping underwater communication cables. These kinds of submarines are classified as AGS (атомная глубоководная станция) or Nuclear Deepwater Station. Their exact mission and the details of the sub are highly secret, but it's been said that the crews consist entirely of officers (they are titled hydronauts and their service requirements are similar to those for their outer space counter parts - cosmonauts). Reportedly the normal crew size for the type is 25, meaning 11 survivors. There is also mention of a civilian specialist who was on board and was present during the fire, but who was evacuated from the compartment prior to sealing it. It might make 12 survivors.

пр.1910 - UNIFORM | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)
пр.10830 / пр.10831 / пр.210 - LOSHARIK | MilitaryRussia.Ru — отечественная военная техника (после 1945г.)

EDIT: To be clear, Losharik is a purely unofficial name. It's a Soviet cartoon character, a horse made out of little spheres. Presumably it alludes to the design of the second, interior hull of the submarine, but it's hard to say anything for sure.
 
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