Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

[eaf-f16]

Russia has formally recognized South Ossetia's and Abkhazia's independence.

MOSCOW - Russia formally recognized the breakaway Georgian territories at the heart of its war with Georgia on Tuesday, heightening tensions with the West as the United States dispatched a military ship bearing aid to a port city still patrolled by Russian troops.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Georgia forced Russia's hand by launching an attack targeting South Ossetia on Aug. 7 in an apparent bid to seize control of the breakaway region.

In response, Russian tanks and troops drove deep into the U.S. ally's territory in a five-day war that Moscow saw as a justified response to a military threat in its backyard and the West viewed as a repeat of Soviet-style intervention in its vassal states.

"This is not an easy choice but this is the only chance to save people's lives," Medvedev said Tuesday in a televised address a day after Russia's Kremlin-controlled parliament voted unanimously to support the diplomatic recognition.

The U.S. was taken surprise by the speed of the Russian response on recognition and escalated it by having Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice threaten a U.N. Security Council veto should Russia ask for international recognition of its move.

"Abkhazia and South Ossetia are a part of the internationally recognized borders of Georgia and it's going to remain so," Rice said.

Britain, Germany and France also criticized the decision.

Medvedev later said Russia did not seek or fear a new Cold War and that it was up to the West to avoid it.

"We are not afraid of anything, including the prospect of a new Cold War," Medvedev was quoted as saying Tuesday by the ITAR-Tass news agency. "But we don't want it and in this situation everything depends on the position of our partners."

"If they want to preserve good relations with Russia in the West, they will understand the reason behind our decision," Medvedev said.

I'm still having trouble absorbing the fact that all of this heightened tension and talk of a new Cold War is over a country like Georgia. This was previously unimaginable, to me. I can't imagine what type of significance Georgia holds for the US that it feels significantly worsening relations with Russia is worth it.

 

[S400]

On who started what:

I've come across this little excerpt regarding the sequence of events leading to 'war', and what, exactly constituted the start of 'war.'

"“Starting in mid July the Russians launched the biggest military exercise in the North Caucasus that they've held since the Chechnya war. That exercise never stopped. It just turned into a war. They had all their elite troops there, all their armor there, all their stuff there. Everyone still foolishly thought the action was going to be in Abkhazia or in Chechnya, which is still not as peaceful as they'd like it to be.

“The Georgians had their crack troops in Iraq. So what was left at their central base in Gori? Not very much. Just Soviet era equipment and not their best troops. They didn't place troops on the border with Abkhazia because they didn't want to provoke the Abkhaz. They were expecting an attempt on Kodori, but the gorge is in such a way that unless they're going to use massive air support – which the Abkhaz don't have – it's impossible to take that place. Otherwise they would have done it already.

“So fast forward to early August. You have a town, Tskhinvali, which is Ossetian, and a bunch of Georgian villages surrounding it in a crescent shape. There are peacekeepers there. Both Russian peacekeepers and Georgian peacekeepers under a 1994 accord. The Ossetians were dug in in the town, and the Georgians were in the forests and the fields between the town and the villages. The Ossetians start provoking and provoking and provoking by shelling Georgian positions and Georgian villages around there. And it's a classic tit for tat thing. You shell, I shell back. The Georgians offered repeated ceasefires, which the Ossetians broke.

“On August 3, the head of the local administration says he's evacuating his civilians. You also need to know one thing: you may be wondering what these areas live off, especially in Ossetia, there's no industry there. Georgia is poor, but Ossetia is poorer. It's basically a smuggler's paradise. There was a sting operation that netted three kilograms of highly enriched uranium. There are fake hundred dollar bills to the tune of at least 50 million dollars that have been printed. [South Ossetian “President” Eduard] Kokoity himself is a former wrestler and a former bodyguard who was promoted to the presidency by powerful Ossetian families as their puppet. What does that mean in practice? It means that if you are a young man, you have no choice. You can either live in absolute misery, or you can take the government's dime and join the militia. It happened in both territories.

“On top of that, for the last four years the Russians have been dishing out passports to anyone who asks in those areas. All you have to do is present your Ossetian or Abkhaz papers and a photo and you get a Russian passport on the spot. If you live in Moscow and try to get a Russian passport, you have the normal procedure to follow, and it takes years. So suddenly you have a lot of Ossetian militiamen and Abkhaz militiamen with Russian passports in effect paid by Russian subsidies.

“So back to the 3rd of August. Kokoity announces women and children should leave. As it later turned out, he made all the civilians leave who were not fighting or did not have fighting capabilities. On the same day, irregulars – Ingush, Chechen, Ossetians, and Cossacks – start coming in and spreading out into the countryside but don't do anything. They just sit and wait. On the 6th of August the shelling intensifies from Ossetian positions. And for the first time since the war finished in 1992, they are using 120mm guns.”

“Can I stop you for a second?” I said. I was still under the impression that the war began on August 7 and that Georgian President Saakashvili started it when he sent troops into South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali. What was all this about the Ossetian violence on August 6 and before?

He raised his hand as if to say stop.

“That was the formal start of the war,” he said. “Because of the peace agreement they had, nobody was allowed to have guns bigger than 80mm. Okay, so that's the formal start of the war. It wasn't the attack on Tskhinvali. Now stop me.”

“Okay,” I said. “All the reports I've read say Saakashvili started the war.”

“I'm not yet on the 7th,” he said. “I'm on the 6th.”

“Okay,” I said. He had given this explanation to reporters before, and he knew exactly what I was thinking.

“Saakashvili is accused of starting this war on the 7th,” he said.

“Right,” I said. “But that sounds like complete bs to me if what you say is true.”

Thomas Goltz nodded. ""

According to this Ossetia, by utilizing the 120s, started the real war.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php

 

[S400]

Russia has formally recognized South Ossetia's and Abkhazia's independence.



I'm still having trouble absorbing the fact that all of this heightened tension and talk of a new Cold War is over a country like Georgia. This was previously unimaginable, to me. I can't imagine what type of significance Georgia holds for the US that it feels significantly worsening relations with Russia is worth it.

Russia is testing the waters regarding expansion in this area. Georgia is a birthing democracy, and that is something the US believes is worth helping with. The US would like a friendly in that area of the world and seeks to hamper Putin's ambitions of expansionism.

 

[S400]

pls delete

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

Russia is testing the waters regarding expansion in this area. Georgia is a birthing democracy, and that is something the US believes is worth helping with. The US would like a friendly in that area of the world and seeks to hamper Putin's ambitions of expansionism.

Wrong ! Russia, beside showing their muscles, saved their peoples, and play
to provide security for them, and US beside testing Russian muscles, play
in the way to show the world that they are not only occupators

 

[S400]

Wrong ! Russia, beside showing their muscles, saved their peoples, and play
to provide security for them, and US beside testing Russian muscles, play
in the way to show the world that they are not only occupators

Well, as the previous article I posted stated, it was actually allegedly the Ossetians who 'fired the shot' that transformed this into 'war.' They should be protecting themselves. If you click the link I provided you'll see that actual Russian forces were busy bombing civilian and military targets willy-nilly days before this. This occured before the official 'MSM' reported start of the war.

Of course the Georgians will reply in kind once things escalate. That's where all those freshly minted (Ossetian) Russian passports come in handy. Kind of gives them free reign to responde (our citizens, and all that...).

As for the occupiers comment, I do not wish to discuss that in this thread. I'm sure there is a more appropriate forum for that.

-S400

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

Well, as the previous article I posted stated, it was actually allegedly the Ossetians who 'fired the shot' that transformed this into 'war.' They should be protecting themselves.

Exactly !!! I didnt say anything about who started war. It is clear
that Ossetians started it, and then hope that Russians will come, but Russia dont have any "biger" strategic (military presence or base ) interest, in fact
they already have huge base in Armenia, that is even more close to the NATO
position..., so it is also clear that their mission was to simply save the people
and btw show to world their strength. . . Simply as that !
But real question is way Ossetians started war ?
I mean, why now, why not before 5 years, why not for 5 years,
and how they know they can for sure rest on Russian ?

 

[S400]

But real question is way Ossetians started war ?
I mean, why now, why not before 5 years, why not for 5 years,
and how they know they can for sure rest on Russian ?

My speculation would be that it began now for a couple of reasons. Olympics being underway, American forces preoccupied, and Georgia pushing for inclusion in NATO could all be obvious contributing factors.

How would they 'know' they would have Russian backing? Oh please, I would be shocked if those plans weren't well hashed out ahead of time.

-S400

 

[Sampanviking]

Your article is badly flawed S400, as it makes absolutely no mention of the major International GUAM exercises that were being conducted on the Georgian side at the same time, which were directly sponsored/assisted by NATO and Israel and which were a dress rehearsal for the Georgian Offensive against South Ossetia on the 7th.

Given the high level of detail provided on the conflict, the omission of such major and relevant details demotes the article it to the level of Propaganda and Disinformation and should be treated as such.

 

[Kosovo=Serbia]

My speculation would be that it began now for a couple of reasons. Olympics being underway, American forces preoccupied, and Georgia pushing for inclusion in NATO could all be obvious contributing factors.

How would they 'know' they would have Russian backing? Oh please, I would be shocked if those plans weren't well hashed out ahead of time.

-S400

Could be, but there were Olympics 4 years ago, American forces were in same
or even bigger engagement back then, and for the NATO membership, they were in the middle of talking also back then, with difference that Georgian army were even "weaker" than now. . .
The key reason is double standards in international law, the key reason is
Kosovo illegally unilaterally declaration of independence. . .
If you are in hand with this, you should now that, when Kosovo declared itself
independent, we and Russian were talking exactly the same thing that US talking now (territorial integrity, international law. . .bla bla bla), and US talking exactly the same thing (special case, Georgians are bad, ethnic cleansing, bla bla bla) Russia talking now. The point is that Ossetians waited
this moment because of Kosovo declaration, so they can have one more good
(read best) argument, they used this precedent...
And you are probably right about second thing, but again, the point is
that their mission in the end was to save people

 

[S400]

it makes absolutely no mention of the major International GUAM exercises that were being conducted on the Georgian side at the same time, which were directly sponsored/assisted by NATO and Israel and which were a dress rehearsal for the Georgian Offensive against South Ossetia on the 7th.

Can you provide irrefutable proof of this? [Citation Needed]

 

[Knjaz]

S400, there're some links to news archives (In russian, but u may use online translator. there's just too much text to translate it).It's about how things escalated into the war.

http://www.newsru.com/arch/world/01aug2008/sniper.html (night from august 1st to 2nd) - "Battle was going on for few hours in the zone of South Ossetian conflict. Sides blame each other for it's start. SO claimed, that Georgian mortar team shelled Tshinvali nad some georgian sniper teams were acting (i.e. shooting people) in various places of South ossetia. Gerogia said, that SO commited act of terrorism against Gerogian police and that some policemen were wounded. "

http://www.newsru.com/arch/world/02aug2008/pl.html - after the battle on saturday night, where were killed 6 and wounded 15 citizens of SO, and shelling of Tshinvali, South Osetia starts evacuation of women and children into North Osetia.

http://www.newsru.com/arch/world/03aug2008/us.html (3rd and 4th of August) - "4000 civillians were already evacuated to North Osetia. Georgia draws artillery units from the base near to the border of SO."

http://www.newsru.com/arch/russia/03aug2008/grt.html - Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs: "Threat of war in SO is real. Urgent negotiations are needed".

http://www.newsru.com/arch/russia/05aug2008/dobrovolzy.html - Volunteers from Russia are arriving to the conflict zone.
http://www.newsru.com/russia/05aug2008/meddle.html - "Russia will interfere in case of escalation of the conflict"

and also news archives from 2 last days of peace. (dont have enough time now...)
http://www.newsru.com/arch/06aug2008/index.html - News from august 6th
http://www.newsru.com/arch/07aug2008/index.html - News from august 7th. This day (imho) is the most important. Maybe Feanor or some1 else will translate the most important information there.

 

[DMG]

So Russia has formally recognised South Ossetia and Azbhakia as independent republics.

Who on earth is going to recognise these provinces as independent?! No European country will do so. Neither will China, for fear of creating a precedent that could embolden Taiwan or Tibet. Nor the United States or Canada.

I can't think of any country asides from maybe Belarus and even then I'm not so sure.

So these provinces will become just like another Northern Cyprus republic, recognised by no one, desperately poor and isolated, totally dependent on a single foreign power for their survival. Great future I predict for these populations!

 

[Sampanviking]

Can you provide irrefutable proof of this? [Citation Needed]

If you want further reference, you will have no shortage if you search under "Operation Immediate Response"

Here is a selection for you from across the spectrum.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9907

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=63921&archive=true

http://www.marines.mil/units/marforres/Pages/OperationImmediateResponsebeginsinCountryofGeorgia.aspx

 

[Feanor]

Belarus, Cuba, and Venezuela. But their independent future doesn't matter. They want to integrate into Russia.

The article is very interested but very flawed. Russian forces only entered S. Ossetia AFTER Georgians almost captured all of Ts'hinvali. Georgian civilian casualties are reported OFFICIALLY by the Georgians as under 100 deaths, so Russian bombings and "atrocities" were obviously minimal. Finally the initial Russian forces that entered the conflict zone were less then a single motor-rifles regiment. They were at 1-2 tank btlns, 1-2 motor-rifles btlns, a SAM battery (SA-11) and 1-2 artillery batteries. Yet despite these tiny forces, the Georgian immediately pulled back and the political reaction was nothing short of panic. In other words they didn't know how large the Russian forces were, not even approximately. Finally Saakashvili himself in an interview admitted that he never expected a Russian military response of that magnitude. In other words he has all but admitted to being the aggressor.

 

[Chrom]

So Russia has formally recognised South Ossetia and Azbhakia as independent republics.

Who on earth is going to recognise these provinces as independent?! No European country will do so. Neither will China, for fear of creating a precedent that could embolden Taiwan or Tibet. Nor the United States or Canada.

Europa probably will not recognise, but China might. You overestimate the importance of "precedent" now, when West showed what only military power (Yugoslavia, Kosovo, in some sense Iraq and Iran also) matters, and not any "precedents". In short, China will recognise or not S.Ossetia depending on political situation and bargaining with all sides - regardless of any "precedents". We are stepped in very dangerous era, when old rules dont work, when international law is even more useless when in USSR vs USA times. And it is not Russia started this era.

I can't think of any country asides from maybe Belarus and even then I'm not so sure.

There are a lot of countries. Basically, any anti-West country can freely recognize S.Ossetia. Moreover, even many neutral countries can do the same. US (and West) will need to push a lot of buttons to prevent this - and that will be much too expensive. Not worth the effort.

So these provinces will become just like another Northern Cyprus republic, recognized by no one, desperately poor and isolated, totally dependent on a single foreign power for their survival. Great future I predict for these populations!

Ya, something like Cyprus.. or Taiwan... last i heard Taiwan live much better than rest of China. Besides, for S.Ossetia and Abkhazia this situation is infinitely better than what was month ago. Month ago they werent recognized by anyone, were subject of various sanction including Russian ones, didnt had any official support... Now it is different. Now, with official russian protection, they future looks much more stable for them. This will undoubtedly affect any business prospects there.

 

[Feanor]

China won't. They have their own pro-independence regions to worry about like Tibet or Taiwan.

 

[Chrom]

China won't. They have their own pro-independence regions to worry about like Tibet or Taiwan.

Belgia, GB or Spain have it even worse. A lot of countries have similar problems - and these didnt prevented them to recognize Kosovo. Georgia (which recognized Kosovo among firsts) is actually best example here, LOL!

 

[Grand Danois]

Belgia, GB or Spain have it even worse. A lot of countries have similar problems - and these didnt prevented them to recognize Kosovo. Georgia (which recognized Kosovo among firsts) is actually best example here, LOL!

Except that it is so much more of an issue to China - situation not similar - they're not going to recognize independence.

They're looking to their own strategic interest (and perspective of legitimacy).

And iirc Spain hasn't recognised Kosovo.

 

[swerve]

Belgia, GB or Spain have it even worse. A lot of countries have similar problems - and these didnt prevented them to recognize Kosovo. Georgia (which recognized Kosovo among firsts) is actually best example here, LOL!

W. European countries aren't going to fight wars with each other over their borders, or provide arms & support to anyone seeking to change each others borders by force, & even the maddest independence groups know that. The number of ETA & the IRA supporters under arms can probably be counted on your fingers & toes. They're a criminal problem nowadays, & one that's much less damaging than normal, non-political crime. How is that worse?

Look at Catalunya, Galicia, Scotland, Wales, Trentino, Aosta, Friesland, Schleswig/Slesvig (I have relatives there, members of a cross-border minority) - wherever. Nobody fights. They talk. Sometimes intemperately, & sometimes far too much, but it's infinitely better than killing people. They stand for election. They vote. Minorities can use their own languages in official transactions, their identities are respected, they have TV channels (officially subsidised) in their own languages, they get elected to parliament. If enough people want it, they get local self-government. Again, how is that worse?