Russia Flexes its Muscles

[swerve]

It still urks me that when we're having to produce 300 million dollar aircraft that we couldn't keep up something like the Tomcat who's power and weapons are still effective and most importantly they're here now. Hutch

Maintenance nightmare. And that matters, a lot. Every hour it's being repaired is an hour it can't be used. Maintenance crews cost money, take time to train, are hard to recruit, need space (particular problem on ships). The fewer you need, the better. Also, the F-14s aren't really "here now". They were wearing out, & would have to be retired or refurbished soon. Almost certainly cheaper to buy more F-18E/F than keep the F-14s flying. Just retiring the F-14s & switching the crews to F-18 maintenance might have given more aircraft ready for use.

Even if an aircraft doesn't fly, it deteriorates. The USAF is now having problems with the wiring on F-15s shorting because insulation is falling off. Deteriorated with age. Repairing it is a nightmare. Parts go out of production. The factories which made parts cease to exist. New parts mean redesign, retest, re-certificate. Some of this stuff was never meant to be replaced, because it was expected the aircraft would be scrapped before that was needed, so doing so means dismantling the aircraft. There comes a point where it's quicker, easier, & cheaper to give up & buy new.

 

[Grand Danois]

The RNoAF weren't the only ones to have a bit of fun. The RAF and the Typhoon had some too.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...phoonLaunchesOperationallyForTheFirstTime.htm

 

[swerve]

The RNoAF weren't the only ones to have a bit of fun. The RAF and the Typhoon had some too.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...phoonLaunchesOperationallyForTheFirstTime.htm

Those pictures have been on the TV news here.

 

[radiosilence]

Looks it becoming a regular occurrence where Russian bombers are testing the UK air defence responses sort of like during the Cold War.

On a more lighter note, the Russian president has literally began to flex his muscles.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/popup?id=3476950&contentIndex=1&page=3

link

 

[Grand Danois]

Mr Putins spin doctors have been working hard on this for years. He started as the grey, dull, ex-KGB administrator and ended up flying fighter jets, showing off judo skills, and a liking for rough living...

Quite a transformation of public perception.

 

[XaNDeR]

Looks it becoming a regular occurrence where Russian bombers are testing the UK air defence responses sort of like during the Cold War.

On a more lighter note, the Russian president has literally began to flex his muscles.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/popup?id=3476950&contentIndex=1&page=3

link

Thats probably not the reason.
Remember what Putin has done until now. He did much and his time is running up as president , now he even did this drastic move for russian strategic bombers to start flying continius , he probably wants people to remember him as Putin the president who made Russia strong again.

 

[10ringr]

Maintenance nightmare. And that matters, a lot. Every hour it's being repaired is an hour it can't be used. Maintenance crews cost money, take time to train, are hard to recruit, need space (particular problem on ships). The fewer you need, the better. Also, the F-14s aren't really "here now". They were wearing out, & would have to be retired or refurbished soon. Almost certainly cheaper to buy more F-18E/F than keep the F-14s flying. Just retiring the F-14s & switching the crews to F-18 maintenance might have given more aircraft ready for use.

Even if an aircraft doesn't fly, it deteriorates. The USAF is now having problems with the wiring on F-15s shorting because insulation is falling off. Deteriorated with age. Repairing it is a nightmare. Parts go out of production. The factories which made parts cease to exist. New parts mean redesign, retest, re-certificate. Some of this stuff was never meant to be replaced, because it was expected the aircraft would be scrapped before that was needed, so doing so means dismantling the aircraft. There comes a point where it's quicker, easier, & cheaper to give up & buy new.

It can still do the job when most of the other stuff your flying won't. That's why they made them, to gain and keep air superiority. Though it takes a lot to maintain, it'll still do the job.

 

[swerve]

It can still do the job when most of the other stuff your flying won't. That's why they made them, to gain and keep air superiority. Though it takes a lot to maintain, it'll still do the job.

I think you've missed my point. If an aircraft is grounded because of its heavy maintenance requirements, it can't do any job. Also, there aren't any usable F-14s, so the point is moot anyway. It was retired a year ago. Apart from a few for museums, the survivors are being scrapped.

Which reminds me . . . the F-14 which was supposed to do a flypast on retirement day was grounded by a mechanical failure. They had a second one on standby, so the flypast went ahead, but think of what that implies in a war? Even for a special occasion, prepped carefully, the F-14s had become so unreliable that a spare was needed for an undemanding flypast.

 

[contedicavour]

It's difficult to see details on the pics, but there are 2 of them on this page: http://www.mil.no/fol/start/aktuelt/article.jhtml?articleID=143627

Article is in Norwegian though, but it doesn't say anything intereseting except that this was a pre-announced excersise from the Russians.

Thks ! It really looks like a picture from another age.
I wonder what use Kitchen ASMs can still have vs today's versions of Aegis and SM2-III (never mind SM-2IV or SM-3). Vs the first Ticos without VLS the risk of being swamped by several supersonic ASMs was real indeed. Nowadays vs VLS equipped CGs and DDGs I doubt it.
Also, as some SAMs don't require illuminators' guidance anymore (Aster 30s with EMPAR) a DDG can launch almost simultaneously 20-30 long range SAMs to intercept cruise missiles launched by TU160 or TU22M3...


cheers

 

[kato]

Also, as some SAMs don't require illuminators' guidance anymore (Aster 30s with EMPAR) a DDG can launch almost simultaneously 20-30 long range SAMs to intercept cruise missiles launched by TU160 or TU22M3...

• SAAM-AD (PAAMS), according to MBDA, can engage maximum 12 targets simultaneously (and track 300).
• SAAM (Aster 15-only, as used on French and Italian ships), also according to MBDA, can engage 8 targets simultaneously (and track 100).
• SAMP/T, essentially a land-based PAAMS derivative, according to EADS goes the middle ground and can engage 10 targets simultaneously.

 

[merocaine]

Mr Putins spin doctors have been working hard on this for years. He started as the grey, dull, ex-KGB administrator and ended up flying fighter jets, showing off judo skills, and a liking for rough living...

Quite a transformation of public perception.

Kind of like Bush 2!
Although he started out as a party boy rich kid
I've also seen publicity shots in a British Sunday magazine of Putin puzzling over a chess board, doing the judo thing, relaxing in his Dasha, walking the dog, it was like a bizzare cross between Hello magazine and a mussolini press shoot.



Those Bear H's the euro fighters intercepted, were they armed, is that something that would be appartent from photos?

 

[Grand Danois]

Kind of like Bush 2!

My thoughts exactly. Though I don't think it came from Karl Rove - not his kind of stuff.

 

[contedicavour]

• SAAM-AD (PAAMS), according to MBDA, can engage maximum 12 targets simultaneously (and track 300).
• SAAM (Aster 15-only, as used on French and Italian ships), also according to MBDA, can engage 8 targets simultaneously (and track 100).
• SAMP/T, essentially a land-based PAAMS derivative, according to EADS goes the middle ground and can engage 10 targets simultaneously.

My understanding is that you can shoot several volleys of 12 Aster 15/30s and then provide final direction once they are up in the air. So once the first 12 targets are destroyed, the next missiles are just behind.
A bit like the SM2s that only need target illumination in the last stages of intercept.
Am I right or not ?

cheers

 

[kato]

A bit like the SM2s that only need target illumination in the last stages of intercept.
Am I right or not ?

That only works out if your targets (incoming missiles/aircraft) are all in the same sector, even with SM2.
And, if i get that right, with Aster you'll also need to, well, cheat a bit by providing "wrong" target information.
The missile itself is completely autonomous, even before the active seeker is switched on. The data uplink is only used to update tracking updates (for the preassigned target) and environmental info to the missile, so it can adjust its path to the target sector.

The Aster missile computes the predicted intercept time according to the target and environmental data it receives during the launch sequence. From the missile flyout and up to the point at which the active RF seeker switches on, the missile is inertially guided, receiving periodic target position and environment updates from the Firing Control Unit via the up-link. This data allows the missile to update its own computations continuously as well as its optimum trajectory towards seeker switch-on and intercept and the predicted intercept time. As soon as the seeker has switched on and achieved target lock, the missile can home onto the target.

(from the same PAAMS link in the post above)

 

[mickk]

I think the recent activities are more a statement of Russias new found wealth since private enterprise than anything else.

The exercices with China and testing of RAF response times are just like a little kid siding with his enemies after being left out of a party. The Chinese dont trust anyone, least of all the Russians. The Chinese would be over the moon at the chance to get up close to what Russia has to offer.

Putin is obviously attempting to restore some Russian pride after years of being left out in the cold.

The claims on the Arctic are just an excuse to to some sabre rattling. However Putin knows that the US and Uk are stretched atm, so its not a bad move seeing he has the cash now to make a few moves. Good for morale and re election chances.

There are more natural resources in Russia than in the Artic, so theres not much to be gained there. Putin isnt stupid so I doubt he is making serious claims to the Artic in the faint hope that thanks to global warming in 100 years time, he might have some solid ground to plant a flag on.

NATO is as always a tootheless tiger and no threat to him.

In short, Russia is just pissed off that it hasnt been shown enough respect by the west since 1992.

We are the winners with two great photos to look at. The full size images on the MOD site are beautiful.

I mean in 2007, flying that old Soviet piece of junk as a threat is just so funny. I wouldnt be surprised if the crew was locked into those Bears!

 

[swerve]

...I mean in 2007, flying that old Soviet piece of junk as a threat is just so funny. I wouldnt be surprised if the crew was locked into those Bears!

As funny as flying that old Cold War piece of junk the B-52? Same age.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

NATO is as always a tootheless tiger and no threat to him.

In short, Russia is just pissed off that it hasnt been shown enough respect by the west since 1992.

We are the winners with two great photos to look at. The full size images on the MOD site are beautiful.

I mean in 2007, flying that old Soviet piece of junk as a threat is just so funny. I wouldnt be surprised if the crew was locked into those Bears!

Those bears are still good MPA's. How old are the P3C's??? They're not a threat by themselves. They are meant to find targets for the backfires which are a threat still.

Anyways i bet the RAF & RNoAF were damn exited to get scrambled to buzz a bear or backfire. They'll have a story to share with some of the old guys arround the squadron.

Its interesting to see the way the RAF fit their typhoons for a fighter intercept. It looked like 4 AMRAAMS on the centre hardpoints and 4 ASRAAMS on the wings. I thought the trend was moveing toward 2 x WVR and 6/8 x BVR not 4/4. Still good to see.

 

[contedicavour]

That only works out if your targets (incoming missiles/aircraft) are all in the same sector, even with SM2.
And, if i get that right, with Aster you'll also need to, well, cheat a bit by providing "wrong" target information.
The missile itself is completely autonomous, even before the active seeker is switched on. The data uplink is only used to update tracking updates (for the preassigned target) and environmental info to the missile, so it can adjust its path to the target sector.


(from the same PAAMS link in the post above)

Yes I agree. PAAMS becomes unbeatable vs, for example, a squadron of 12 TU22M3 coming from the same direction and launching (always for example) 4 cruise ASMs each. A wall of 48 Aster 15/30s plus the guided ammunition superCIWS Strales with its 3 76/62 SR... at least in the case of the Horizon/Doria DDGs. The 16 extra VLS cells fitted for but not with would certainly help though...

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Those bears are still good MPA's. How old are the P3C's??? They're not a threat by themselves. They are meant to find targets for the backfires which are a threat still.

Anyways i bet the RAF & RNoAF were damn exited to get scrambled to buzz a bear or backfire. They'll have a story to share with some of the old guys arround the squadron.

Its interesting to see the way the RAF fit their typhoons for a fighter intercept. It looked like 4 AMRAAMS on the centre hardpoints and 4 ASRAAMS on the wings. I thought the trend was moveing toward 2 x WVR and 6/8 x BVR not 4/4. Still good to see.

I would imagine that for such intereception missions one has to go close to the other plane for visual ID. So having some more WVR-missiles might not be a bad thing.

 

[contedicavour]

I would imagine that for such intereception missions one has to go close to the other plane for visual ID. So having some more WVR-missiles might not be a bad thing.

If only we could accelerate deliveries of IRIS-T in order to have something to fight off R73 ... In short range IR mode the only Western missile (that is, fully operational) capable of beating R73 is the MICA IR of the French air force. What's the delivery status of IRIS-T and ASRAAM ?

cheers