Russia Flexes its Muscles

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Yes I agree. PAAMS becomes unbeatable vs, for example, a squadron of 12 TU22M3 coming from the same direction and launching (always for example) 4 cruise ASMs each. A wall of 48 Aster 15/30s plus the guided ammunition superCIWS Strales with its 3 76/62 SR... at least in the case of the Horizon/Doria DDGs. The 16 extra VLS cells fitted for but not with would certainly help though...

cheers

Against last generation ASHM's such as "kingfish" or "kitchen" i would agree, PAAMS would be more than a match. But against a swarm attack of "sunburns" i.e. low altitude super sonic missiles, PAAMS wont have enough time before detection and impact. And if they used some complicated attack patterns it would be in trouble.

If only we could accelerate deliveries of IRIS-T in order to have something to fight off R73 ... In short range IR mode the only Western missile (that is, fully operational) capable of beating R73 is the MICA IR of the French air force. What's the delivery status of IRIS-T and ASRAAM ?

AFAIK ASRAAM is fully operational within the RAAF. It has compleatly replaced AIM 9M as our WVR missle. i havent seen a hornett with a sidewinder over here for over a year or more. So i think it would be fully operational within the RAF too. Also the AIM 9x is operational within the USAF and will be soon with the Finns. I'm not to sure about IRIS-T though.

 

[Waylander]

IRIS-T is fully operational with the German Luftwaffe on EF.

 

[radiosilence]

There are more natural resources in Russia than in the Artic, so theres not much to be gained there.

The Arctic region is estimated to have over a quarter of the worlds extractive energy resources(oil,gas, coal etc) .

 

[kato]

IRIS-T is fully operational with the German Luftwaffe on EF.

Meaning, only with Jagdgeschwader 73, i.e. one active fighter squadron, and the trainer squadron. JG 71 will keep Phantoms for some more time, JG 72 was cut in 2002, and JG 74 will transition from Phantoms to EF in 2008.

JG 73 received its first IRIS-T officially in December 2005.

 

[swerve]

...

AFAIK ASRAAM is fully operational within the RAAF. It has compleatly replaced AIM 9M as our WVR missle. i havent seen a hornett with a sidewinder over here for over a year or more. So i think it would be fully operational within the RAF too. ....

It is fully operational, & has been for years. AIM-9 is still listed on the RAF website (L & M), but I haven't seen it in recent pictures of RAF fighters.

 

[Waylander]

Meaning, only with Jagdgeschwader 73, i.e. one active fighter squadron, and the trainer squadron. JG 71 will keep Phantoms for some more time, JG 72 was cut in 2002, and JG 74 will transition from Phantoms to EF in 2008.

JG 73 received its first IRIS-T officially in December 2005.

Because of that I wrote "on EF".

BTW, it is planned to integrate the IRIS-T also on our Tornados isn't it?
When it is expected to replace the Sidewinders in the Tornado Squadrons?

 

[kato]

BTW, it is planned to integrate the IRIS-T also on our Tornados isn't it?
When it is expected to replace the Sidewinders in the Tornado Squadrons?

When the 2.3-billion MLU/SLEP for the Tornados is at that point. 2010 at the earliest, more likely 2012. Only the 112 Tornados that are planned to be kept around after 2012 will be upgraded at all.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, than I will look for it in 2015.


Thanks for the info.

 

[contedicavour]

When the 2.3-billion MLU/SLEP for the Tornados is at that point. 2010 at the earliest, more likely 2012. Only the 112 Tornados that are planned to be kept around after 2012 will be upgraded at all.

only 112 tornado will be SLEP-ped ? heck then you definitively need all of the EF tranche 3...
In AMI (Italian air force) IRIS-T is already procured, but the Typhoons fly only with IRIS-T training sensors on the wings for the moment, not with the actual missile. I've read it should be equipping 4th and 36th wings as of 2008. Still a few months to go with AIM120B and AIM9L...

cheers

 

[kato]

only 112 tornado will be SLEP-ped ? heck then you definitively need all of the EF tranche 3...

Well, the Tornado numbers in the Luftwaffe are expected to go steadily down, planning is for:
- 2006: 207
- 2007: 206
- 2008: 181
- 2011: 139
- 2012: 112

I wouldn't actually be sure that all 112 Tornados will receive the SLEP/MLU. Official talk (BwPlan 2008) is that "only the aircraft in the target structure will receive" this upgrade - that would be the below 72 aircraft. "Additional upgrades" are planned, but not fundable.

Medium-term plan (2015-2017, finished procurement of EF) is for the Luftwaffe to have the following units remaining:

• 3 fighter wings (108 Eurofighter) (by name only, multirole)
• 2 fighter/strike wings (72 Eurofighter) (by name only, multirole)
• 1 recon wing (36 Tornado IDS/Recce)
• 1 SEAD/DEAD wing (36 Tornado ECR)
• 2 airlift wings (60 A400M)
• 1 mixed transport wing (4 A310-MRTT, 3 A310, 6 CL-601, 3 AS532)
• 1 helo transport wing (42 NH-90)
• 3 air-defense wings (mix of Patriot PAC-3 and MEADS)
• 1 ground regiment with 3 active and 1 reserve battalion (close air-defence, airfield infantry, passive protection, airfield support)

Long-term plan is to replace at least the recon wing with UCAVs too.

 

[neil]

Medium-term plan (2015-2017, finished procurement of EF) is for the Luftwaffe to have the following units remaining:

3 fighter wings (108 Eurofighter) (by name only, multirole)
2 fighter/strike wings (72 Eurofighter) (by name only, multirole)
1 recon wing (36 Tornado IDS/Recce)
1 SEAD/DEAD wing (36 Tornado ECR)
2 airlift wings (60 A400M)
1 mixed transport wing (4 A310-MRTT, 3 A310, 6 CL-601, 3 AS532)
1 helo transport wing (42 NH-90)
3 air-defense wings (mix of Patriot PAC-3 and MEADS)
1 ground regiment with 3 active and 1 reserve battalion (close air-defence, airfield infantry, passive protection, airfield support)

I know this is off topic.. just a quick question.. do you forsee the German government putting up adequate funding to complete this plan..?

I understand that the Bundeswehr has serious problems funding all its procurements..

 

[kato]

I know this is off topic.. just a quick question.. do you forsee the German government putting up adequate funding to complete this plan..?

The above is within current funding projections, i.e. the funding is already allocated in theory. The Luftwaffe actually wants more of course, as this plan is a considerable downsizing from what it still had 2-3 years ago (350+ combat aircraft, mostly).

Of course, within some tolerances, there will be shiftings. Maybe buy some NH-90 a year later to fund other, raised-price stuff. Not much of a problem, we're talking maybe 300-400 million euro shifted around max each year, as usual. Considering that over the next 10 years, the Bundeswehr will receive around 50-55 billion euro just for funding new equipment, that's peanuts.

Of the big stuff, imo the only "uncertain" thing currently is still MEADS. Procurement for that won't be signed before 2009/10. Though if that's not realized, they'll just take part of the MEADS funding and buy more PAC-3 interceptors for the existing Patriot wings.

 

[contedicavour]

Well, the Tornado numbers in the Luftwaffe are expected to go steadily down, planning is for:
- 2006: 207
- 2007: 206
- 2008: 181
- 2011: 139
- 2012: 112

I wouldn't actually be sure that all 112 Tornados will receive the SLEP/MLU. Official talk (BwPlan 2008) is that "only the aircraft in the target structure will receive" this upgrade - that would be the below 72 aircraft. "Additional upgrades" are planned, but not fundable.

Medium-term plan (2015-2017, finished procurement of EF) is for the Luftwaffe to have the following units remaining:

• 3 fighter wings (108 Eurofighter) (by name only, multirole)
• 2 fighter/strike wings (72 Eurofighter) (by name only, multirole)
• 1 recon wing (36 Tornado IDS/Recce)
• 1 SEAD/DEAD wing (36 Tornado ECR)
• 2 airlift wings (60 A400M)
• 1 mixed transport wing (4 A310-MRTT, 3 A310, 6 CL-601, 3 AS532)
• 1 helo transport wing (42 NH-90)
• 3 air-defense wings (mix of Patriot PAC-3 and MEADS)
• 1 ground regiment with 3 active and 1 reserve battalion (close air-defence, airfield infantry, passive protection, airfield support)

Long-term plan is to replace at least the recon wing with UCAVs too.

Interesting and a bit sad... 250 fighterbombers in all...
Italy is going down the same route, with 18 Tornado ECR, 80 or 120 Typhoons (depending on batch 3), up to 120 F35A/B... let's say around 200 fighterbombers for the Air Force and the usual 20-something for the navy. Even if this excludes advanced trainers, it's quite a cut vs the '90s.

Regarding the Tornados, even if nowadays jets launch cruise missiles from several hundred kms away, it would be a shame to lose the very-low-flight-profile capability of the Tornados. Neither Typhoon Batch 3 neither F35 will have this. It's not like we're going to launch Storm Shadows at enemy tanks or APCs after all...

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Nor would the Tornados go hunting for AFVs...

 

[kato]

Nor would the Tornados go hunting for AFVs...

Or any other German fixed-wing aircraft since the Alpha Jet...

 

[contedicavour]

I may be wrong but I remember that the Tornado IDS had a mission attacking columns of Soviet T80 MBTs with cluster bombs after flying below 50 metres height with the terrain following radar... The mission was to protect north-eastern Italy from potential invasion by Warsaw pact armoured divisions

cheers

 

[kato]

the Tornado IDS had a mission attacking columns of Soviet T80 MBTs with cluster bombs

Germany had the 4.6-ton MW-1 submunition canister for that in the 80s. Primary role was against area targets (700x2500m) such as airfields, but anti-tank HEAT submunitions were also available. The system could carry up to 4500 submunitions, heavily dependant on type, and was the only system with a specific anti-tank role for German Tornados. Italy iirc used more common BL-755 cluster bombs for the same purposes.

The single-use MW-1 canisters are still around (Germany bought 680 of them, and only tested them in the early 80s, no other flights with them even). But effectively they are about as likely to be used as the B61 nukes earmarked for German Tornados.
Taurus KEPD 350 cruise missiles are effectively replacing it, and will also be used on the Eurofighter. Doubt the Eurofighter could carry MW-1 anyway btw, since the full system needs three parallel pylons underneath the fuselage to be mounted.

 

[swerve]

Nor would the Tornados go hunting for AFVs...

They could, they could. Hang a dozen Brimstone under each wing . . . .

 

[Waylander]

I thought about our Tornados.

The MW-1 is normally not carried because one cannot land with it. So it has to be used.
IIRC they trained for it by using a special arrangement of drop tanks.

 

[contedicavour]

Germany had the 4.6-ton MW-1 submunition canister for that in the 80s. Primary role was against area targets (700x2500m) such as airfields, but anti-tank HEAT submunitions were also available. The system could carry up to 4500 submunitions, heavily dependant on type, and was the only system with a specific anti-tank role for German Tornados. Italy iirc used more common BL-755 cluster bombs for the same purposes.

The single-use MW-1 canisters are still around (Germany bought 680 of them, and only tested them in the early 80s, no other flights with them even). But effectively they are about as likely to be used as the B61 nukes earmarked for German Tornados.
Taurus KEPD 350 cruise missiles are effectively replacing it, and will also be used on the Eurofighter. Doubt the Eurofighter could carry MW-1 anyway btw, since the full system needs three parallel pylons underneath the fuselage to be mounted.

Ehm taurus costs a bit too much to be wasted on a few T80 MBTs...
I guess Tiger helos can fill part of the capability gap though

cheers