Royal Netherlands Navy
- Thread starter walter
- Start date
Funny you should say that considering that these guns where actually bought second hand as leftovers from the refit of he Iroquois-class!The Netherlands must have hired a Canadian consultant who has convinced the pollies there that naval ships last 40-50 years. No doubt he served on ships that old.
It is planned for these ships to be replaced sometime in the 2030's so we're expecting a good decade of service from them on these ships. And it is expected that they will be fitted to their replacements after that. But they are absolutely necessary because, as I mentioned, they where not new when they where purchased. Before that they lived on Canadian ships and by now they are almost half a century old and completely worn out. It was deemed uneconomical to keep them in service. Mind you, the navy never liked these guns and they have given them trouble since the beginning! The maintenance cost where high and readiness was a problem. It's safe to say that everyone is happy to be rid of them.
As always, you are right Ananda. The predecessors of the LCF's, the old Tromp GW class frigates mounted the old 12cm Bofors that came from the old Holland class destroyers from the 1950's. But did you know that initially those guns where to be mounted on these new ships aswell?!? The reason they weren't was because they didn't have enough for 4 ships!!!
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Seems Indonesian Fatahilla class Corvettes is the last surviving warships that still used Bofors 120mm. The Finn's Corvettes already replace them with Bofors 57mm during Mid Life Refit.
I also thought that Fatahilla Corvettes was going to replaced their 120mm Bofors during their latest mid life refit. However seems they still keep that 120mm gun
This guns is the latest version of the Bofors 120mm, with higher rate of fire from previous version used by Dutch Destroyers which later on recycled to Tromp class. Still using same basic design and ammo. It's lighter which seems being market for Corvettes size guns. However besides Indonesia and Finnland Navy Corvettes, no other Navy shown interest on the gun.
Shame it's not gain any interest more, which make Bofors discontinue this gun and focus more on their 57 mm as Naval main gun in their inventory products.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Yes, its remarkable that not many navies are interested in this capable naval gun. Luckily its little brother the 57 mm is much more successful, after the Oto Melara 76 and 127 mm the most popular naval gun on the market (>40mm category).
But it seems that Bofors still produce the 120 mm shells, i can not believe TNI-AL is using the 120 mm rounds from the '80s.
walter
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #126
Well finally de "The Seven" is back at sea,after a 4 year modernization and overhaul program.
The new 127mm(Leonardo)will be delivered in 2025-26.
here's the article:
www.navalnews.com
The new 127mm(Leonardo)will be delivered in 2025-26.
here's the article:
Royal Netherlands Navy's frigate 'Zr.Ms. De Zeven Provinciën' is back at sea - Naval News
Following a four-year modernization and overhaul program, the Royal Netherlands Navy (Koninklijke Marine)'s air defence frigate "Zr.Ms. De Zeven Provinciën" is sailing again.
www.navalnews.com
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
The issue is that its direct competitors have been the BAE MK 45 127 and the Otobreda 127 which are both in widespread use with multiple Navies
Well NATO has had a tendency towards standardization from the outset. And the 76 can do most of what smaller calibers are capable of and OTO makes one that doesn't need an extra deck. I still don't get why they went for 57mm on the LCS.
But you can bet your ass that most Western navies have thought that these are the calibers the US is using and they stock lots of ammo so they can borrow from them. Remember the Belgian air force running out of bombs after a week of operations over Libya? The Dutch air force ran out of bombs too at some point so they had to borrow bombs from the US. The same is probably true for the navy.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Well it seems that the replacement of the Karel Doorman Klasse (M-klasse) frigate will enter service three years later than planned, so not 2025 but 2028. The design phase takes more time than expected.
nos.nl
Nieuwe Nederlandse fregatten komen een paar jaar later
Op de schepen wordt ruimte gereserveerd voor een High Energy Laser-wapen, dat nog in ontwikkeling is.
nos.nl
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Dutch MoD clears path for the M-frigates replacement, expects delays - Naval News
The Royal Netherlands Navy (Koninklijke Marine) and Belgian Navy (Marinecomponent/Composante marine) will replace their current M-frigates (Karel Doorman-class), the Dutch MoD confirmed today in an official statement. The future frigates’ main task will be anti-submarine warfare (ASW) thanks to...
www.navalnews.com
Just add Sandhi post on Dutch-Belgium project for M class replacement. From Naval News article seems indicating that the design will be smaller and cheaper than previous design. The Frigates will aim for Anti Submarine, but also some general purpose works. Thus the design need to shown much modularity capabilities.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
"Smaller and cheaper". Well, with a length of 146 m its even longer than the large LCFs, which are larger than the Tromp klasse (GW-fregatten) which were regarded as destroyers when they enter service.Dutch MoD clears path for the M-frigates replacement, expects delays - Naval News
The Royal Netherlands Navy (Koninklijke Marine) and Belgian Navy (Marinecomponent/Composante marine) will replace their current M-frigates (Karel Doorman-class), the Dutch MoD confirmed today in an official statement. The future frigates’ main task will be anti-submarine warfare (ASW) thanks to...
Just add Sandhi post on Dutch-Belgium project for M class replacement. From Naval News article seems indicating that the design will be smaller and cheaper than previous design. The Frigates will aim for Anti Submarine, but also some general purpose works. Thus the design need to shown much modularity capabilities.
Naval News call it a "slight delivery delay". The M-klasse was initially planned for replacement around 2020, this was moved backwards to 2023, then 2025, and now 2028. Luckily the M-fregatten are capable ships, even to todays standard.
According to Naval News the new main sensorsystem will be a combination of APAR and Sea Master 400. If we take a look to this article from november 2018, http://navyrecognition.com/index.ph...18-damen-unveils-6000-tons-omega-frigate.html , we see that there are many similarities between the OMEGA-design and the M-klasse replacement, including the S/X - band combination radarsystem.
Koninklijke Schelde can offer this new design for the export market, this can reduce the price/ship if other countries also order this class. I just wonder if this class is cheaper than the OMEGA-design.
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walter
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #132
length is not 146 but 133 m(but still longer then the M-Class)weigt will be 5500 tons(final design)
And it's hard for every country,it seems, to get what they want and enough of them.
France, Italy and the UK were already unable to purchase their desired numbers of first line / 'Swiss pocket knives' in the form of FREMMs or Type 26. So second line solutions in the form of FTI, PPA and Type 31 were introduced.
Although the Type 31 is rather a 'third line' solution, being an OPV + or OPV ++.(in my opinion)
We and Belgium do not have the size or budget for high / low frigate mix. So we have to compromise.The FTI measures 122 meters and approx. 4,250 tons and can be scaled up to a length of 134 meters.
As far as I can see, the (hopefully) "good enough" solution has been found with the design of 133 meters and 5,500 tons on 24-06-20.
Which offers value for its price and is also attractive for export customers.
And it's hard for every country,it seems, to get what they want and enough of them.
France, Italy and the UK were already unable to purchase their desired numbers of first line / 'Swiss pocket knives' in the form of FREMMs or Type 26. So second line solutions in the form of FTI, PPA and Type 31 were introduced.
Although the Type 31 is rather a 'third line' solution, being an OPV + or OPV ++.(in my opinion)
We and Belgium do not have the size or budget for high / low frigate mix. So we have to compromise.The FTI measures 122 meters and approx. 4,250 tons and can be scaled up to a length of 134 meters.
As far as I can see, the (hopefully) "good enough" solution has been found with the design of 133 meters and 5,500 tons on 24-06-20.
Which offers value for its price and is also attractive for export customers.
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walter
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #133
And this is also interesting:
International interest
And maybe there will be more than four. Because there is certainly one seriously interested "from Europe" to participate. De Waard and Zuiddam cannot say which country it concerns. "It is not public," says Zuiddam. "But a formal letter has been sent by that country. So we have to wait a while, although it can be completed within six months."
It is not new that there is interest from abroad in the replacement of the M-frigates. However, the interest is so concrete. Countries such as Portugal (which is very satisfied with the M-frigates and the current modernization) and Norway (which had ideas to replace the sunken frigate Helge Ingstad with two new frigates) have been mentioned for some time.
If three European countries purchase the same new frigates, this is very good news for the project and a special event in the history of European frigate construction
If this would happen,more countries bying the vMFF,a Batch 2 is possible
International interest
And maybe there will be more than four. Because there is certainly one seriously interested "from Europe" to participate. De Waard and Zuiddam cannot say which country it concerns. "It is not public," says Zuiddam. "But a formal letter has been sent by that country. So we have to wait a while, although it can be completed within six months."
It is not new that there is interest from abroad in the replacement of the M-frigates. However, the interest is so concrete. Countries such as Portugal (which is very satisfied with the M-frigates and the current modernization) and Norway (which had ideas to replace the sunken frigate Helge Ingstad with two new frigates) have been mentioned for some time.
If three European countries purchase the same new frigates, this is very good news for the project and a special event in the history of European frigate construction
If this would happen,more countries bying the vMFF,a Batch 2 is possible
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walter
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #134
This is what's set about systems on board(a lot is unknown)
A few systems are certain. Zuiddam: "ESSM Block 2 is simply in the order. So there will be a VLS [vertical launcher, ] and you have to control that chain. You do that with sensors based on AWWS, which are now being developed with the latest techniques and latest Threat Scenarios. The same system will be deployed on the German MKS 180 frigates, including APAR Block 2. " This makes the new frigates a big step forward compared to the M frigates, which do not have such an advanced radar as APAR. This is therefore the successor of the APAR on the LCFs.
At the heart of the ship is a renewed LFAPS, Low Frequency Active Passive Sonar. A sonar that can ping submarines at low frequencies. Because it is left behind in the water, it is also possible to search under temperature layers. Thanks to the low frequency, submarines can be detected very well. The LFAPS is a largely Dutch development, for which there is very much interest from other countries. However, the Netherlands does not want to share that knowledge with many countries.
Rob Zuiddam is projectleader "replacement M-Class"
Also it seems that there will be a 16 cells Vls,that's the number i keep hearing.
A few systems are certain. Zuiddam: "ESSM Block 2 is simply in the order. So there will be a VLS [vertical launcher, ] and you have to control that chain. You do that with sensors based on AWWS, which are now being developed with the latest techniques and latest Threat Scenarios. The same system will be deployed on the German MKS 180 frigates, including APAR Block 2. " This makes the new frigates a big step forward compared to the M frigates, which do not have such an advanced radar as APAR. This is therefore the successor of the APAR on the LCFs.
At the heart of the ship is a renewed LFAPS, Low Frequency Active Passive Sonar. A sonar that can ping submarines at low frequencies. Because it is left behind in the water, it is also possible to search under temperature layers. Thanks to the low frequency, submarines can be detected very well. The LFAPS is a largely Dutch development, for which there is very much interest from other countries. However, the Netherlands does not want to share that knowledge with many countries.
Rob Zuiddam is projectleader "replacement M-Class"
Also it seems that there will be a 16 cells Vls,that's the number i keep hearing.
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The Greeks might also be interested - although, with them turning interest into an actual order is a long and tortuous, and frequently unsuccessful, process. I know they’re involved in the FDI and they probably don’t have the money, but they have done “mix and match” acquisitions in the past, and have bought from the Netherlands.
It’s also possible that one of the ex Eastern Bloc countries might be up for it. The Poles or the Croatians could be interested.
The Dutch always seem to build interesting ships, and this is another with potential.
It’s also possible that one of the ex Eastern Bloc countries might be up for it. The Poles or the Croatians could be interested.
The Dutch always seem to build interesting ships, and this is another with potential.
As Walther said they are now supposed to be 133m. It seems they cut 1.9m out of the previous design. It's still difficult to pin things down exactly because there's still decisions to be made. But a lot has been pinned down now.
Here in the NL we've been expecting these ships towards the end of the decade for a while now. 2023 was always going to be a pipe dream and the 2025 target was to have the first hull floating by that time while commissioning would be around 2027/28. The 2020 date was the original plan based on the M-frigates projected service life when they where designed. So the M replacement should realistically have almost finished sea trials if it had faced acceptable delays.
But the navy never expected the penny pinching and stinginess that would lead to the (criminal and deadly) cost cutting defense would face in the coming decades. The infuriating naiveté among the populace and the down right cowardice of our politicians made it possible to cut defense to such an extent that infantry trained shouting pewpew because they had no ammo to train with. But more on topic they made the navy trade six frigates for four useless patrol boats that are way to big and have a nice radar but nothing for it to shoot with.
As a result of a shrinking fleet the M frigates where used much more than expected and despite being great ships that are loved by anyone that operates them. They are really getting long in the tooth and there's ongoing problems with the serviceability of their gas turbines. Among other things, due to the high tempo of operations in the gulf of Aden they operated at high speeds a lot more than the navy had envisioned. So despite being capable ships it's going to bring difficulties for the navy to keep operating the ships for too long beyond their service life. At least I don't expect these ships to be sold on after we're done with them. Although our politicians are so cheap I'm sure they'll try!
As for the new design, it is not the OMEGA. This ship is being designed largely by the defense organization and will, in all probability, not look like the OMEGA as this is one of Damen's own designs. These ships could be exported but Damen won't own the design like it does with OMEGA and SIGMA. And seeing that this ship is going to be a bespoke design for the Dutch and Belgian navy, it's characteristics are going to be determined by their needs. While Damen's own designs are made to be competitive on the international market so they would be more easily scalable to their customers demands.
As we know the biggest cost in modern warship procurement are it's sensors and other expensive equipment that make up their capabilities. And I think OMEGA like the SIGMA series would be designed to be scaled up and down more easily than the M replacement would be. Thus if you want an OMEGA ship with capabilities similar to that ship the cost would probably also be similar, in this case a projected 500 million euro (yeah right!).
However, depending on your own defense industry and what deals you can make, you could end up with a cheaper ship. But I guess that goes for any ship. But the Germans are going to build some MKS180's that are supposed to be based on the OMEGA design. So you could compare that program, but those ships are going to be another class of 7000 tonnes patrol boats. And they won't have the ASW capability that the Dutch navy is looking for.
MKS180 is currently planned as a 10,000 ton ship with full ASW capability.
I stand corrected, partially. Everywhere I look I see a maximum of 9000 tonnes but other experts have also stated 10,000 tonnes. But from what I have read the ASW capability is supposed to be a modular system with a towed array. I also haven't heard about torpedo's being installed but you probably know more than I do.
However it doesn't change the fact that they're building a ship the size and cost of a Burke but with a fraction of the weaponry and dubious modular capabilities. This isn't something our navy would be interested in and I also heard that they didn't want a ship built to German standards (I heard the MKS is getting TWO saunas!!!).
It's a shame really because when we did work together successfully with the Germans we both built arguably the best designed naval hulls either country has since ww2.
The 10k tons and ASW focus are officially stated on the Bundeswehr website (in German). And onboard torpedos as well as hull-mounted sonar do not really contribute to wider-scale ASW operations, they're for self-defense of the ship (in European waters a hull-mounted sonar typically has a range of around 5 km).
You're aware that HNLMS Karel Doorman as the newest Dutch ship is built to be adaptable with modules, including accomodation modules?
So what does contribute to wider-scale ASW operations? Helicopters? Then you have a helicopter with an ASW focus and you don't need a special ship for that. And if you have to bolt your sonar on separately can you really say that ship is focused on ASW, how? And it seems to me that for a ship that is focused on hunting submarines it would be a good idea if it could defend itself from said submarines.
However, the downsides of modular capabilities aside (I see many). What the Dutch navy isn't interested in is a ship that's double the tonnage that is reasonable for it's capability. And they don't want the capability of a (lightly equipped) frigate for a price that the US pays for a full blown destroyer.
What they're looking for is something with a little more capability for about half the price, and this shouldn't be impossible.
To come back to the Karel Doorman... while it's a decent ship it doesn't know what it's supposed to be. Another failed attempt at the Swiss army knife at sea.