Royal Netherlands Navy

Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Redlands18 said:
Actually the Netherlands sold 2 Zwaardvis class Subs to Taiwan in the 1980s
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Ananda said:
remember in 90's they are try to convince either Indonesia or Malaysia for their secondhand Zwaardvis or upgraded design (like Taiwan Hai Lung) to compete with German and French design.
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Yes, I know that. I already put also at my post above. I should put there's no export success on Dutch Submarine after Taiwan deal..My Bad..:)

However my point is, that Sweden has more success than Dutch in area of Submarine export. Thus this make me wonder, why SAAB want to collaborate with Damen in Submarine export. Don't see Damen can provide value added in Export submarine market to SAAB, considering even the design is based on SAAB ones.
 
walter

walter

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Ananda said:
Yes, I know that. I already put also at my post above. I should put there's no export success on Dutch Submarine after Taiwan deal..My Bad..:)

However my point is, that Sweden has more success than Dutch in area of Submarine export. Thus this make me wonder, why SAAB want to collaborate with Damen in Submarine export. Don't see Damen can provide value added in Export submarine market to SAAB, considering even the design is based on SAAB ones.
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Well the problem for us(Dutch)is that our boats are very specific,not a lot of users/clients for those kind of boats.Walrus was also quite expensive(new technologies,Double hull,etc)
To be fair the Walrus was considered by Australia and Canada at the time,but again price(and range,but not by much),was the hindering factor.Combat system was on Walrus was considered the best out there(by Australia),from what i heared.

The reason Damen and Saab did join is simple,Damen wants to learn/extend their knowledge of subs,Saab wants to be able to build anywhere(Damen has a lot of shipyards)and both companies are a bit alike.Also this collaboration is not only for subs.

But these are exciting times for us;new subs,new minehunters(still sad they didn't opt for the Damen or Saab option,but choice was made by Belgium) and new ASW/GP frigates,so a lot is commin:)
 
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
walter said:
The reason Damen and Saab did join is simple,Damen wants to learn/extend their knowledge of subs,Saab wants to be able to build anywhere(Damen has a lot of shipyards)and both companies are a bit alike.Also this collaboration is not only for subs.
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Ahh, if the export collaboration is not limited on Submarine project alone, and for me it's make sense. Damen strength compared to SAAB is clearly on surface and specialist vessels. The video did not make it clear if the export collaboration is not limited with Submarine project.

The SAAB design clearly build to be very flexible and adaptable on each customers need. NATO high end specs now also can get customers outside traditional users in North America and West/North Europe. French Scorpene that being sold to Malaysia, India and Brazil is up to latest NATO specs. And as what French did, many customers like India, Brazil and Indonesia are want to have their new submarines build under their local yards. Thus SAAB and Damen collaboration must prepared to sell design too.

European yards also need to prepare attractive financing packages too. Pakistan used to be French customer on Submarine, however their next generation of Submarine will be build in their yards using Chinese designs and financing. Even non traditional users of Submarine like Thailand now goes to China instead to German or South Korea as analysts previously think, due to Chinese generous financing packages.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
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The Walrus was liked very much by the RAN, as was its combat system. The issue was its construction techniques were seen as old fashioned verses those used by Germany and Sweden, and following the upgrades to the Oberons the RAN thought they could do better on the combat system side of things.

Hindsight, an evolved Walrus and its combat system could have worked out perfectly good enough and much cheaper then the Kockums Type 471 (Collins), leaving enough money for other needed capability or even the originally planned hulls seven and eight. Then again, the Collins issues were blown out of all proportion for political reasons so there is no reason to expect any minor issues with Walrus wouldn't have been exaggerated as well.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Xavier interview in Rotterdam naval exhibition (NEDS) on contenders for Dutch Walrus replacement. Dutch Navy wants at least 3000 tons Submarine with long transit capabilities.

Spain Navantia come out with design based on their S80, French Naval Group bring design based on their Barracuda, SAAB (just as already told previously) bring design based on A26, and TKMS altough don't elaborate what they offer, but considering Dutch specs, I suspect something similar with what they offer to Australia (type 216).

In fact I suspect both Naval Group and TKMS will offer something similar to what they offering to Australia, perhaps bit smaller since Dutch talk about 3000 ton range while Australia ask on 4000 ton range.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Another Xavier interview on Walrus replacement. Now with Damen-SAAB A26 based competitors, Royal IHC-Naval Group Barracuda based.
Similar to SAAB that saying their cooperation with Damen will be for long run thus indicating not limited on Dutch project only, Naval Group also stating they are aiming long run cooperation with IHC.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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Ananda said:
Another Xavier interview on Walrus replacement. Now with Damen-SAAB A26 based competitors, Royal IHC-Naval Group Barracuda based.
Similar to SAAB that saying their cooperation with Damen will be for long run thus indicating not limited on Dutch project only, Naval Group also stating they are aiming long run cooperation with IHC.
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Significant remediation work was required on HMNZS Canterbury after it was delivered to the RNZN, so I would suggest that it isn't the best example of their design & build quality.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
ngatimozart said:
so I would suggest that it isn't the best example of their design & build quality.
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Yeah, IHC is not Dutch ship builder that have strong Naval track record, not like Damen. They seems more on civilian specialise vessels. Damen also is the builder that take over RDM business as the Walrus builder and other previous Dutch Subs.

Seems with Damen goes with SAAB, Naval Group has no choice but to go with IHC. Not a strong partner compared to Damen, this it will be back how A26 based vs Barracuda based design combine with Damen experience vs IHC ones...
Will be interesting to see, but my bet is on Damen-SAAB.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Netherlands downselects contenders for submarine replacement | Jane's 360

Based on this article, from four contenders that put their design on Dutch Walrus Submarine replacement (as being shown on Xavier interview in NEDS), one of them Navantia already being drop from competition by the Dutch.
Personally I'm not so sure either with prospect of TKMS, and I'm still predicting SAAB-Damen and Naval Group-IHC that will meet in final round. Will be surprised if TKMS somehow can bring a design that can win (considering the Dutch need have many similarities with what Australian put in their Submarine competitive tenders).
 
walter

walter

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Cabinet decides to build new naval ship Zr. Ms Den Helder, and the great thing is: it is also being phased out in Den Helder

© Illustration Damen
Arie Booy
12/19/2019 at 10:22 PM
den Helder

The first warship to be called Den Helder is also being phased out in this place in North Holland. For the Noordkop region this means a lot of extra jobs.

The unexpected turn was announced on Thursday evening after the cabinet announced that the government had agreed to the construction of a new transport ship for the Dutch war fleet.

It has been known for some time that an operational ship would be named after the naval city. But the fact that the Damen shipyard would also complete the vessel in Den Helder is completely new.

Until now, the structural work of modern Dutch warships of this size (200 meters) has been done at the Romanian shipyard in Damen. The practice was that the vessel was towed to Vlissingen to be finished there to become a naval ship that can take the plunge. Now that special and labor-intensive job is being carried out in Den Helder.

It is more than half a century since the Royal Netherlands Navy had warships built on the Willemsoord Rijkswerf. However, these were never vessels with the impressive dimensions such as those of the transport ship Zr.Ms. Den Helder, now in the pipeline.

Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding is building the ship for an amount of 374 million. The Den Helder will be 50 million euros more expensive and delivered two years later than planned. The design of the Karel Doorman is based on. This sister ship is a bit bigger and has more options. Zr.Ms. Den Helder will sail in 2024.

@walter Please provide the link to the source for this as per forum rules.
Ngatimozart
 
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walter

walter

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this is how she will look like

@walter Please provide the link to the source for this as per forum rules.
Ngatimozart
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

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Walter, Rangitoto, thank you for sharing!
So basically the new HrMs Den Helder is a modified and smaller version of the HrMs Karel Doorman, but without amphibious capabilities?...
I expect Koninklijke Schelde/Damen will instal again the I-Mast 400 and two Goalkeepers from Hollandse Signaalapparaten.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
Sandhi Yudha, your picture is ultimately from the Damen website, & I presume the newspaper (Noordhollands Dagblad, 19-12-2019) you linked to & which published it four days ago lifted it from there - but it's a picture of a generic support ship, from Damen's Logistic Support Vessel family (hence LSV on its bow), & it's been on Damen's site for a long time.
Logistic Support Vessel is cost effective solutions to support the fleet

Rangitoto's picture is from the Dutch ministry of defence, & of the planned Den Helder, as the A834 shows. It was published on navalnews.com along with a photo of a matching model shown at NEDS 2019 a few weeks ago -
Royal Netherlands Navy Closer to Get its new Combat Support Ship Zr. Ms Den Helder from Damen - Naval News

Compare with the model -
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
walter said:
Dutch and German shipyards to build new German warship -sources.

Dutch and German shipyards to build new German warship -sources
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Ha, i just read it at
Scheepsbouwer Damen krijgt miljardenorder van Duitse marine, grootste ooit
and
Damen krijgt opdracht voor bouw nieuwe Duitse MKS 180- fregatten

Very good nieuws for the Netherlands in general and specially voor Koninklijke Schelde in Vlissingen.
As we can expect this will become some great and nice looking frigates (with the size of a destroyer).
 
S

stonewall71

New Member
Hi

I'm looking for recent photos of the former HrMs Van Nes F833, now NRP Bartolomeu Dias F333 of the Portuguese Navy, that I think is still in Den Helder , finishing her MLU, can someone assist?

Thx
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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stonewall71 said:
Hi

I'm looking for recent photos of the former HrMs Van Nes F833, now NRP Bartolomeu Dias F333 of the Portuguese Navy, that I think is still in Den Helder , finishing her MLU, can someone assist?

Thx
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Try a search through Google images.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

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