Royal Netherlands Navy

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
So what does contribute to wider-scale ASW operations? Helicopters? Then you have a helicopter with an ASW focus and you don't need a special ship for that. And if you have to bolt your sonar on separately can you really say that ship is focused on ASW, how? And it seems to me that for a ship that is focused on hunting submarines it would be a good idea if it could defend itself from said submarines.

However, the downsides of modular capabilities aside (I see many). What the Dutch navy isn't interested in is a ship that's double the tonnage that is reasonable for it's capability. And they don't want the capability of a (lightly equipped) frigate for a price that the US pays for a full blown destroyer.
What they're looking for is something with a little more capability for about half the price, and this shouldn't be impossible.

To come back to the Karel Doorman... while it's a decent ship it doesn't know what it's supposed to be. Another failed attempt at the Swiss army knife at sea.
A towed sonar array would certainly increase the effectiveness of an ASW ship, vs. relying upon a hull-mounted sonar. An ASW weapon capability like ASROC would also extend the range and reach of a vessel.

Given the potential developments in unmanned systems, having a vessel with space and facilities to deploy unmanned aerial, surface, and/or sub-surface vehicles tasked with ASW would also potentially increase the area a single vessel could monitor and respond.

This is in addition to whatever an ASW-tasked naval helicopter could do. Or even better, a pair (or more) of ASW-tasked naval helicopters.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
As Walther said they are now supposed to be 133m. It seems they cut 1.9m out of the previous design. It's still difficult to pin things down exactly because there's still decisions to be made. But a lot has been pinned down now.

Here in the NL we've been expecting these ships towards the end of the decade for a while now. 2023 was always going to be a pipe dream and the 2025 target was to have the first hull floating by that time while commissioning would be around 2027/28. The 2020 date was the original plan based on the M-frigates projected service life when they where designed. So the M replacement should realistically have almost finished sea trials if it had faced acceptable delays.

But the navy never expected the penny pinching and stinginess that would lead to the (criminal and deadly) cost cutting defense would face in the coming decades. The infuriating naiveté among the populace and the down right cowardice of our politicians made it possible to cut defense to such an extent that infantry trained shouting pewpew because they had no ammo to train with. But more on topic they made the navy trade six frigates for four useless patrol boats that are way to big and have a nice radar but nothing for it to shoot with.

As a result of a shrinking fleet the M frigates where used much more than expected and despite being great ships that are loved by anyone that operates them. They are really getting long in the tooth and there's ongoing problems with the serviceability of their gas turbines. Among other things, due to the high tempo of operations in the gulf of Aden they operated at high speeds a lot more than the navy had envisioned. So despite being capable ships it's going to bring difficulties for the navy to keep operating the ships for too long beyond their service life. At least I don't expect these ships to be sold on after we're done with them. Although our politicians are so cheap I'm sure they'll try!

As for the new design, it is not the OMEGA. This ship is being designed largely by the defense organization and will, in all probability, not look like the OMEGA as this is one of Damen's own designs. These ships could be exported but Damen won't own the design like it does with OMEGA and SIGMA. And seeing that this ship is going to be a bespoke design for the Dutch and Belgian navy, it's characteristics are going to be determined by their needs. While Damen's own designs are made to be competitive on the international market so they would be more easily scalable to their customers demands.

As we know the biggest cost in modern warship procurement are it's sensors and other expensive equipment that make up their capabilities. And I think OMEGA like the SIGMA series would be designed to be scaled up and down more easily than the M replacement would be. Thus if you want an OMEGA ship with capabilities similar to that ship the cost would probably also be similar, in this case a projected 500 million euro (yeah right!).

However, depending on your own defense industry and what deals you can make, you could end up with a cheaper ship. But I guess that goes for any ship. But the Germans are going to build some MKS180's that are supposed to be based on the OMEGA design. So you could compare that program, but those ships are going to be another class of 7000 tonnes patrol boats. And they won't have the ASW capability that the Dutch navy is looking for.
Thank you for your explanation.
You are right, the year after year budget cuts on defence in the last decades is not only stupid, but also on a level that it becomes criminal.
And yes, the Holland Class OPV is a 'remarkable project'.
The seize, displacement, sensors and processing systems of a frigate, but with an armament of a small patrol boat and a speed of an auxiliary vessel.

Some people claim that the OPVs have a low maximum speed of 21,5 kts because they dont need to go faster than just above 20 kts, and that the long range (5000 nm while going 15 kts) the strong point is of the OPVs. Well, the 1692 ton SIGMA 9113 corvettes have a slightly shorter range of 4800 nm (14 kts) and a maximum speed of 28 kts.
Also the endurence of 21 days is exactly the same as the smaller and faster SIGMA 10514 class.

Another negative point of the OPV is that you can't just upgrade it to frigate level, from the beginning the low budget construction is unsuitable for ASW-operations.
 

walter

Active Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #143
Sandhi,

Let me explain a bit more about the Hollands:

They are Ocean Patrol Boats(we all know that)with a decent range,needed because The Dutch Navy uses them regurlarly in the Caribian(Aruba,Curacao,etc)for catching drug smugglers for example.

In cooperation with the helicopter and the US Navy they are very succesfull,and maybe for Border patrol,fisheries(that kind of stuff )For real operations they are useless.

Although they have a better radar then the Fremm(for example),they can't do didly squat against any incomming targets/threads(so they see what's comming,but can't do anything about it)

They were build to show the radars(and hoping that a/or more countries were interested in these "sets")plain and simple.

The Defence budget is creeping up,but ever so slightly and not nearly enough(but i guess it's better then the cuts we have been having)
 

Toptob

Active Member
And yes, the Holland Class OPV is a 'remarkable project'.
The seize, displacement, sensors and processing systems of a frigate, but with an armament of a small patrol boat and a speed of an auxiliary vessel.

Some people claim that the OPVs have a low maximum speed of 21,5 kts because they dont need to go faster than just above 20 kts, and that the long range (5000 nm while going 15 kts) the strong point is of the OPVs. Well, the 1692 ton SIGMA 9113 corvettes have a slightly shorter range of 4800 nm (14 kts) and a maximum speed of 28 kts.
Also the endurence of 21 days is exactly the same as the smaller and faster SIGMA 10514 class.

Another negative point of the OPV is that you can't just upgrade it to frigate level, from the beginning the low budget construction is unsuitable for ASW-operations.
To slightly correct what Walter said, they are classed as patrol ships not boats. Not to be pedantic but it does mean that you can't really compare it to a smaller patrol boat that is meant to run down smugglers. The concept was to have ships that could perform long range patrols and coast guard duties but had the staying power of something like a frigate. The FRISC seaboats and the helicopter could chase down the smugglers. And as station ships in the West, they are great! They are big and roomy, they can get there on their own and they can fulfill all the tasks they will be faced with from anti-smuggling to disaster relief. And they're cheap to operate and can be run with a modest staff.

But at the same time that's sort of the whole reason behind these ships. They're cheap and that's the problem. These ships where conceptualized in the early to mid 00's, a time when politicians where cheap and spineless... KUCH... I meant a time when money was short and defense where at the back of the line and people thought that in the future the armed forces would be very expensive, heavily armed policemen who bothered people in third world countries to make us feel better... I mean peace keeping and counter insurgency. In any case, peer power competition was a thing of the past. So there was little political will to spend any money at all, let alone do something as expensive as building new ships.

But the navy had actually seen their operational tempo shoot up in recent years. They went from a cold war force that basically did exercises with a large fleet available to the 00's where we had a war on terror and pirates in the Gulf of Aden while still having to fulfill all their previous commitments. Another result of the defense cuts was that defense had problems recruiting and retaining personnel as they could not be competitive on a labor market in a growing economy. THUS!!! The stage was set for a class of ships that is the bane of every Dutch navy enthusiasts existence!!!!!

And I think many, if not most people that know the Dutch navy would happily trade them in for four SIGMA's. And so would the navy, because that was their original proposal after another study had proposed something like what we have now. But as Walter mentioned above one of the prime reasons for these ships was their radars and to keep Damen busy. Because the M replacement was planned to start designing in 2015 and the LCF's would be done in the mid 00's, and Damen saw it's order book becoming a little thin and Thales had a really cool new radar that they wanted to put on a ship as a sort of demonstrator. There was enough pressure from the people who really matter to politicians to end up building the patrol ships.

But in the end the navy ended up having to sacrifice six frigates for four patrol boats. But the government was already under pressure from the right gaining popularity and you can't buy popularity in the Netherlands by investing in defense. So the ships had to be cheap enough to not upset people too much but still have enough money left to keep the important peo... KUCH to keep industry happy and buy the very expensive radars. So the ships are slower than for instance the SIGMA corvettes of the Indonesian navy because they have much... much less powerful engines. Because that was cheaper! But the sensors are very good. And they where very expensive... But they're kind of useless for something that is basically a police boat.

So the moral of the story is that you're right! The Holland class at many points outclasses it's role as a patrol ship. But that's because there's some capabilities that the navy could not give up on for operational reasons. Like the range and endurance and the helicopter, which are more like a corvette or a light frigate which was what the navy actually wanted. But everything else was done as cheap as was possibly acceptable.

But in the end it's not a corvette like the SIGMA and it wasn't built to be turned into something else. That's where it's really different from a SIGMA. Because the Holland class where a bespoke design, the government created the design together with Damen. Where the SIGMA is a design family where there's an emphasis on modularity to be able to customize the design to their customers wishes. And while I heard that the Indonesians had installed some systems into their new SIGMA frigates after they where commissioned for financial reasons. This is not really something that happens as often as some discussions on the internet might suggest.

Just like with that whole mission module malarky, there are big problems with this whole "fitted for but not with" and "we'll fit it in the future" business. Leaving the follies of modules aside, leaving things of a ship because you can't afford it saying of we'll buy that when we can afford it. Is usually just an excuse for politicians to replace a capability with a promise they won't have to honor anyway because they'll be out of power by that time. The reality is that a lot of the modern European frigates where built with "room" for extra VLS cells. But I heard that on the Italian FREMM for example that space where those cells would be is now a gym, and to fit more VLS would take a substantial redesign and rebuild of that section of the ship. And I assume it will be the same for most of the European frigates. Upgrading and refitting is expensive and time consuming. You can't just plant some ASM's on the deck and be done with it. You'd need sensors and data links and integrate them into your combat system. There's all sorts of wiring and design involved, and it's not something that can be done in a couple of weeks.

It's not that upgrading and refitting is impossible, in a lot of cases it's a good idea and I'm a fan of it. But these things usually require such an amount of time and effort that it's usually done during some kind of mid life maintenance period. But that means that the ship would have sailed around half it's service life with a political promise instead of a capability that could have been installed when it was built and employed in the defense of your country in the meantime. I'm not against replacing or upgrading materiel, or even leaving some space if you think that capability will take up more space in the future.

But I'm against building ships with political promises of capabilities and modular mission whatevers. Because the business of defense isn't that easy! If you have a ship in an area that has a number of possible capabilities, but you have to ship a container and spend days or even weeks installing that capability. You don't have that capability! If your LCS can sweep mines, and you need a mine sweeper, but you need to ship a module to that ship to install it. You need logistical capability near that ship to get your module there and you need maintenance support to install it. And the ship needs to come off station to install the module, and is that crew going to be as proficient at mine warfare as a dedicated crew? So you just use some ships in one role with that module and other ships in other roles, and then you train crews specifically for that role... right? But then you could just as well have made two different types of ships.

Or when, like the British, you build ships without ASM's with the promise that you'll install them later. Well what if Putin and Xi blow their collective lid and WW3 starts before you install them... Then what? And what if your FREMM only has 16 VLS when it could have had 32 but you where gonna install them later. Then you don't have that capability.

Anyway, if anyone's still reading. Sorry for the rant. If I had to give a conclusion about it. I'd say that long term planning is important for defense procurement. And most defense organizations should apply them more to make good plans for long term procurement and incorporate in those plans how they are going to get political support for their plans. Otherwise you end up with a high end yacht that's disguised as a patrol boat!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A towed sonar array would certainly increase the effectiveness of an ASW ship, vs. relying upon a hull-mounted sonar. An ASW weapon capability like ASROC would also extend the range and reach of a vessel.

Given the potential developments in unmanned systems, having a vessel with space and facilities to deploy unmanned aerial, surface, and/or sub-surface vehicles tasked with ASW would also potentially increase the area a single vessel could monitor and respond.

This is in addition to whatever an ASW-tasked naval helicopter could do. Or even better, a pair (or more) of ASW-tasked naval helicopters.
One other thought which I had forgotten before, was that a warship purpose built for ASW operations would likely have more expensive features designed and built into it than other, non-ASW focused warships. As I understand it (@alexsa could very likely confirm or clarify this) but the shape of the hull can impact how much noise a surface vessel either makes or radiates while underway. Similarly, extra efforts can/are made to isolate machinery, as well as the choice of machinery itself, all can be done with the goal of reducing how much noise an ASW vessel makes. These efforts to reduce the noise signature of an ASW vessel are done to minimize the the amount of 'background noise' that the ASW vessel and supporting assets like embarked naval helicopters, sonobuoys, and/or towed sonar arrays might pick up and could contribute to not hearing noise from a sub.

These extra efforts in both design and construction have a cost, which can easily add to the cost of a vessel which is otherwise similar in capabilities to non-ASW focused vessels.
 

walter

Active Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #146
1 step closer to our new MCM vessels;

Belgian-Dutch Mine Counter Measure (MCM) Program Achieves New Milestone

On May 23, a new contractual milestone was reached as part of the Belgian-Dutch Mine Counter Measure (MCM) program: Exactly one year after notification of the contract in 2019, the program successfully passed the "Systems Functional Review" phase.

In the midst of the COVID-19 health crisis, the teams of Belgium Naval & Robotics and of the binational defense project have reached a new milestone: “Systems Functional Review”. This evaluation makes it possible to validate the functional and architectural studies of all the systems of MCM vessels developed by Naval Group such as computer networks, electrical installations, propulsion systems or combat systems, as well as those of all unmanned systems developed by ECA Group. This review also focused on the system of systems that provides mission management, communications and cybersecurity, as well as on the integration of the unmanned systems aboard the ship.

“This milestone represents an important step because it demonstrates that the systems architecture of the armed ship meets the functional requirements of our Belgian and Dutch customers,”

Eric Perrot, MCM program director at Naval Group.


“The requirement and the rigor of the client when passing these milestones are essential; we can thus approach the next phases of the program in good conditions”

Jean-Louis Sambarino, MCM program director at ECA Group.


“The COVID-19 challenge was resolutely taken up and mastered by Belgium Naval & Robotics and our binational project team. The flexibility, diligence and professionalism of both parties were the ingredients necessary for the success of this important step in the contractual deadlines. The constructive atmosphere and expertise of Belgium Naval & Robotics inspires confidence in the prospect of the next milestone this fall. “

Commander Claude Bultot, program director for the Belgian and Dutch navies



Next phase: Preliminary Design Review

In charge of the preliminary design of the ships, Naval Group works in close collaboration with Kership who will carry out the detailed design of the ships and their construction. Kership’s activities will start after passing the Preliminary Design Review milestone, which is scheduled for December 2020.

The contract for twelve MCM vessels for the Belgian and Dutch navies will span over ten years. After a design period of three years, Belgium Naval & Robotics will move on to the production phase of these ships and unmanned systems, with an initial delivery scheduled for 2024. Six ships will be delivered to the Belgian navy and six to the Dutch navy ; They will be equipped with complete drone systems (Toolbox) containing a total of more than a hundred underwater, surface and aerial drones entirely dedicated to mine hunting.

Belgian-Dutch Mine Counter Measure (MCM) Program Achieves New Milestone - Naval News
 

Toptob

Active Member
1 step closer to our new MCM vessels;
Regrettably, yes. What a terrible mistake, a prime example of why European procurement competitions are a bad idea! Because those Belgians can't seem to govern a country (they should just return to their rightful place in our kingdom). Again we're going to be stuck with substandard, overpriced French garbage that will be forced on a service that doesn't want to operate it. Like those Cougars that the air force didn't want and that have given problems in every possible way because the French are terrible at delivering support and training!

Terrible. terrible decision. But the whole program could have been done much better. They should have combined this program with the replacement of Pelikaan, Mercuur and the hydrographic survey ships (maybe Mercuur would be difficult). As I mentioned above I'm not a fan of combat modules that "plug in" into a warship. But none of these ships are front line combatants and their tasks could be done on a similar hull. Hell, in a pinch you could load those modules on an offshore supply vessel and get the task done. The Dutch navy is going to test the equipment for these vessels on a leased supply ship. The other tasks would be hydrographic survey, Caribbean support ship and submarine tender. The last one might be a problem but it should be possible to build a ship that could do all these tasks with some modular equipment.

If we did this we could have economy of scale while supporting our own industry. And the navy would get a ship that's exactly what they envisioned instead of some semi off the shelf French (BLEGH.... spits) money pit that the Belgians let themselves get bribed into.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Regrettably, yes. What a terrible mistake, a prime example of why European procurement competitions are a bad idea! Because those Belgians can't seem to govern a country (they should just return to their rightful place in our kingdom). Again we're going to be stuck with substandard, overpriced French garbage that will be forced on a service that doesn't want to operate it. Like those Cougars that the air force didn't want and that have given problems in every possible way because the French are terrible at delivering support and training!

Terrible. terrible decision. But the whole program could have been done much better. They should have combined this program with the replacement of Pelikaan, Mercuur and the hydrographic survey ships (maybe Mercuur would be difficult). As I mentioned above I'm not a fan of combat modules that "plug in" into a warship. But none of these ships are front line combatants and their tasks could be done on a similar hull. Hell, in a pinch you could load those modules on an offshore supply vessel and get the task done. The Dutch navy is going to test the equipment for these vessels on a leased supply ship. The other tasks would be hydrographic survey, Caribbean support ship and submarine tender. The last one might be a problem but it should be possible to build a ship that could do all these tasks with some modular equipment.

If we did this we could have economy of scale while supporting our own industry. And the navy would get a ship that's exactly what they envisioned instead of some semi off the shelf French (BLEGH.... spits) money pit that the Belgians let themselves get bribed into.
Amusing to read your comment ☺
Ive the feeling that your negative view on France is caused
by the whole Air France-KLM saga and that "de nationale hobby van de Fransen staken is".
But cooperation between countries doesn't automatically mean that it will be a failed product. Just take a look to the Alkmaarklasse minehunters of the Tripartite design. In that period the glasfibre reinforced polyester hull was really a revolutionary design with on board the ships a lot of advanced systems. It was quite successful as far as i know, and even exported.

Im just surprised that the Marine Nationale doesnt have plans to replace its own Tripartite ships. Well, maybe after 2030.
 
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Toptob

Active Member
Amusing to read your comment ☺
Ive the feeling that your negative view on France is caused
by the whole Air France-KLM saga and that "de nationale hobby van de Fransen staken is".
But cooperation between countries doesn't automatically mean that it will be a failed product. Just take a look to the Alkmaarklasse minehunters of the Tripartite design. In that period the glasfibre reinforced polyester hull was really a revolutionary design with on board the ships a lot of advanced systems. It was quite successful as far as i know, and even exported.

Im just surprised that the Marine Nationale doesnt have plans to replace its on Tripartite ships. Well, maybe after 2030.
EXACTLY Sandhi! If this design was so good, why are the French not buying them? And although the sale of KLM was a drama, that has more to do with corrupt Dutch politicians than anything else. My negative view comes from the fact that the French are assholes and NAVAL is an asshole company! They are a French state company that is French and that works for the French and if it's not of interest to the FRENCH it's just a source of money and they don't give a shit about working with their client. See we have a different culture from the French.

We could work together with the Indo's because you guys are like family (I have some Indonesian ancestry somewhere) and we're business people. The French are arrogant and don't like to work with other peoples. That's why joint projects involving the French have a tendency of running aground. And our defense has bad experiences with them. There where big BIG problems with pilot training on the cougars and the French where not interested in adjusting things to their customers demands. Upgrades and spare parts where also a problem, that's why the air force doesn't want French planes anymore and why the NH-90 is not as beloved as you would want.

If you compare Indonesian defense with Dutch defense, we do things a little differently. Especially our navy, because they like to design their own ships or at least have very veeeery much input in it's design. So those ships are bespoke and something like and LCF is almost exactly what the navy wanted. Indonesia on the other hand needs to look more at off the shelve or customized solutions like the SIGMA's. If you want to buy a solution like that from the French it could be okay, and their product could very well be the best that is available to a customer.

But that's not what our navy wants. And this stupid European tender where we let the Belgians make the decisions was a bad idea from the start. Also, to illustrate that the French are not all that just look at Taiwan where they got into problem for bribing people too much. Or Australia where they are completely messing up their submarine program. Or in India where they where getting squirmy about technology transfer. Believe me, you're better off not trusting a Frenchman!
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your explanation.

You also suggested to combine the new minehunter program with the replacement of the HrMs Mercuur A856 and HrMs Pelikaan A804. But wasnt the Mercuur a torpedowerkschip already retired in 1987? And the Pelikaan is quite new, just commissioned in 2006 if im not wrong.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
EXACTLY Sandhi! If this design was so good, why are the French not buying them? And although the sale of KLM was a drama, that has more to do with corrupt Dutch politicians than anything else. My negative view comes from the fact that the French are assholes and NAVAL is an asshole company! They are a French state company that is French and that works for the French and if it's not of interest to the FRENCH it's just a source of money and they don't give a shit about working with their client. See we have a different culture from the French.

We could work together with the Indo's because you guys are like family (I have some Indonesian ancestry somewhere) and we're business people. The French are arrogant and don't like to work with other peoples. That's why joint projects involving the French have a tendency of running aground. And our defense has bad experiences with them. There where big BIG problems with pilot training on the cougars and the French where not interested in adjusting things to their customers demands. Upgrades and spare parts where also a problem, that's why the air force doesn't want French planes anymore and why the NH-90 is not as beloved as you would want.

If you compare Indonesian defense with Dutch defense, we do things a little differently. Especially our navy, because they like to design their own ships or at least have very veeeery much input in it's design. So those ships are bespoke and something like and LCF is almost exactly what the navy wanted. Indonesia on the other hand needs to look more at off the shelve or customized solutions like the SIGMA's. If you want to buy a solution like that from the French it could be okay, and their product could very well be the best that is available to a customer.

But that's not what our navy wants. And this stupid European tender where we let the Belgians make the decisions was a bad idea from the start. Also, to illustrate that the French are not all that just look at Taiwan where they got into problem for bribing people too much. Or Australia where they are completely messing up their submarine program. Or in India where they where getting squirmy about technology transfer. Believe me, you're better off not trusting a Frenchman!
Silly me! I thought the EU was like the flag, sitting in harmony singing Cum by yah (or however it’s spelled and sung);)
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I believe there is a place for modularity, including containerized systems designed to be mixed and matched on various platforms.

While not a fan of "for but not with", I believe it makes sense to have niche capabilities provided in a modular form that is able to be installed on a variety of platforms, either for a specific exercise, operation or deployment, of to cover the non availability of the platform usually fitted with the capability.

Examples I can think of are mine warfare, hydrographic, special forces and force protection capabilities. They could easily be designed to fit a given / common interface for appropriate containers, power and cooling, specialised craft (RHIBs, UUV, USVs, Assault Boats, SF Submersibles etc). The modular capabilities could even facilitate training on shore, then when required, are fitted to an appropriate platform pre deployment, i.e. mine warfare and force protection for a frigate deploying to the Persian Gulf, hydrographic for an OPV or amphib deploying on a HADR mission.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One other thought which I had forgotten before, was that a warship purpose built for ASW operations would likely have more expensive features designed and built into it than other, non-ASW focused warships. As I understand it (@alexsa could very likely confirm or clarify this) but the shape of the hull can impact how much noise a surface vessel either makes or radiates while underway. Similarly, extra efforts can/are made to isolate machinery, as well as the choice of machinery itself, all can be done with the goal of reducing how much noise an ASW vessel makes. These efforts to reduce the noise signature of an ASW vessel are done to minimize the the amount of 'background noise' that the ASW vessel and supporting assets like embarked naval helicopters, sonobuoys, and/or towed sonar arrays might pick up and could contribute to not hearing noise from a sub.

These extra efforts in both design and construction have a cost, which can easily add to the cost of a vessel which is otherwise similar in capabilities to non-ASW focused vessels.
Hull form, propellers and rafting of machinery (to avoid transmitting noise into the water) all cost quite a bit. However they do add considerably to the the ASW capabiliyt of the vessel and will make the vessel harder to target. This combined with a mulit static sonar suite will make the T26 a difficult adversary particularly if the vessel is working in conjuction with other assets.

A very basic description of Multi-static can be found here

.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Or Australia where they are completely messing up their submarine program. Or in India where they where getting squirmy about technology transfer. Believe me, you're better off not trusting a Frenchman!
A degree of Francophobia appears to be de rigueur on these fora, and this is not really the thread to comment on the Australian submarine project, but would you like to support your contention that the project is completely messed up with some references?

oldsig
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
A degree of Francophobia appears to be de rigueur on these fora, and this is not really the thread to comment on the Australian submarine project, but would you like to support your contention that the project is completely messed up with some references?

oldsig
We have a similar Francophobia here so I understand where he is coming from.;)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We have a similar Francophobia here so I understand where he is coming from.;)
Doesn't mean that it's ok though. Us Kiwis have good reason to dislike the French because they did commit an act of state terrorism / war in the Waitemata Harbour when they used an explosive charge to sink the Rainbow Warrior, killing one crew member.

I know that the French can be difficult, but they're just a tad different and can be a bit excitable. Us Kiwis find Canucks a tad different.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Whichever version you prefer, the French politicians who ordered the bombing of Rainbow Warrior are dead, & haven't been in power since 1985 or 1995. Can't keep blaming the entire population for things that were done when the current president of France was at primary school.
 

Toptob

Active Member
Thank you for your explanation.

You also suggested to combine the new minehunter program with the replacement of the HrMs Mercuur A856 and HrMs Pelikaan A804. But wasnt the Mercuur a torpedowerkschip already retired in 1987? And the Pelikaan is quite new, just commissioned in 2006 if im not wrong.
Sandhi, you're right. HrMs Onverschokken M886 and old minesweeper, turned submarine tender and renamed HrMs Mercuur A856 was decommissioned in 1987. But only after her replacement HrMs Mercuur A900 was commissioned into the fleet. This Mercuur is approaching the end of her service life this coming decade although I believe it's not been decided yet whether she'll be replaced. But there are plans going to replace several classes of ships with one type and she's been named there if I remember correctly.

Pelikaan still has a lot of life left in her and she should be coming out of maintenance and refit sometime next month. She's getting a new crane for working with the larger FRISC seaboat, new radars, communication and management systems. They're also changing the galley and crew quarters to make it more pleasant for the wamens.

You made one mistake though Sandhi! The suffixes for the Navy have changed from HrMs (Harer Majesteits) to ZrMs (Zijner Majesteits) because we have a king now :)

I believe there is a place for modularity, including containerized systems designed to be mixed and matched on various platforms.

While not a fan of "for but not with", I believe it makes sense to have niche capabilities provided in a modular form that is able to be installed on a variety of platforms, either for a specific exercise, operation or deployment, of to cover the non availability of the platform usually fitted with the capability.

Examples I can think of are mine warfare, hydrographic, special forces and force protection capabilities. They could easily be designed to fit a given / common interface for appropriate containers, power and cooling, specialised craft (RHIBs, UUV, USVs, Assault Boats, SF Submersibles etc). The modular capabilities could even facilitate training on shore, then when required, are fitted to an appropriate platform pre deployment, i.e. mine warfare and force protection for a frigate deploying to the Persian Gulf, hydrographic for an OPV or amphib deploying on a HADR mission.
I mostly agree with what you said. I just don't think it's a good idea to have modular containerized capabilities on a front line warship. I get the drone idea and I agree with that too. But most modern (European) frigates already carry two or more large seaboats, so they can accommodate something like a USV on existing facilities like davits or an aft ramp. I don't see a reason for a frontline combatant to carry something like four 12m assault boats because it's a Frigate or a Destroyer, not an amphibious assault ship. And it doesn't need to carry containers because it's not a container ship nor a supply ship nor a minesweeper or whatever. Real combat capability is already so precious in our "modern" navies, and I'm afraid that all this modularity is little more than a way for stingy politicians to shut up their defense department by shoving as many tasks as they can onto the minimal number of hulls they can get away with.

But I certainly think tasks like mine warfare, hydrographic survey, patrol tasks and disaster relief can all be done on a single hull. But I feel we need to rethink how we approach naval warfare with drones in the coming era. A frigate or destroyer is definitely not the best choice as a drone mothership, so I think we need to find a more suitable solution for this.

A degree of Francophobia appears to be de rigueur on these fora, and this is not really the thread to comment on the Australian submarine project, but would you like to support your contention that the project is completely messed up with some references?

oldsig
I don't know if Francophobia is popular on this forum. I do know that most people that are involved in defense and procurement do not like working with the French very much. This is something they've learned from previous experiences they had while working with them (if you can ever work WITH the French).

As for the Aussie submarine program, one would only need to take a gander on the Australian navy thread on this forum. And you would witness the complaints that many have about the way they are proceeding with this. And forgive me for not posting references. But the complaints I have heard are things surrounding ToT, workshare, delays and problematic communications between the Australian government and NAVAL.

The workshare thing is my bigges irk about our own minesweeper program. First we (the NL) are getting nothing and the Belgians are getting scraps, and even those scraps seem up in the air. The Belgians mostly selected NAVAL because they bribed them a 100M Euro discount, but those stupid Belgians are getting screwed out of their workshare for a lot more than a 100M.

But this is my biggest problem with the French and especially NAVAL. France is basically a stubborn borderline communist country, and NAVAL is a state owned enterprise that is predating on it's competitors on the French taxpayers dime. They undercut others in price and then they don't deliver on their promises. So you end up with garbage, like Taiwan. Ask them how they like their French frigates and how they got them. Anyway, I have nothing against France as such, it's a pretty pleasant place to be if you avoid the cities. But they're not good allies .
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As for the Aussie submarine program, one would only need to take a gander on the Australian navy thread on this forum. And you would witness the complaints that many have about the way they are proceeding with this. And forgive me for not posting references. But the complaints I have heard are things surrounding ToT, workshare, delays and problematic communications between the Australian government and NAVAL.
Fair comments, but the same issues and complaints have been repeatedly voiced about Navantia and BAE, or have often been voiced by politicians and organisations with agendas not closely aligned with the facts, then repeated by members of the forum. Perhaps we can say that things are not perfect - they never are - but "completely messed up" is a gross exageration at this point

oldsig
 
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